Sustain, and what we think to be true.

Tommy Young · Post by **Tommy Young** » 11 Aug 2007 8:56 pm

Michael sustain is a very unique and very usable part of this great instrument that we love. As most of you know I do Modifications that improve the clarity along with richness and texture of notes and the thin sounds we hear on some guitars.The more sustain It has the better end result I have. SO I must strive to squeeze all the sustain that I possibly can out of it so that I have a happy customer. There are sooooo many factors that effect this and I have spent many many hours"""in excess of 5 years"" doing just what you guy's are discussing. trying to figure just how much or not enough each factor does to ones upper register as most players feel that the upper register is the most vulnerable part of most guitars and yes for the most part I agree with DAVE Mudgett on his observations but there are other factors that I can't discuss at this time because of my patent pending situation.

PS: Gentlemen I am totally disabled so just to let you know how much time I really worked on this and this alone only GOD knows for sure. now only 3 weeks ago my 6th back surgery with more to come """

ERV sorry but i think you need to look over a 71 fatback like I had when I reworked it totally the wood was different to my eyes. when I had my changer completely out i looked at the wood and low and behold it looked just like plywood and when i took it to my favorite paint store [[[[it was formica too]]] I had him along with several others we all agreed that it wasn't a solid piece of wood for sure but it was layered grains of wood in different directions and have seen it on more than it since then, maybe someone else can shed some light here.

Micheal this is a very interesting subject I've enjoyed it immensely so far TOMMY YOUNG

Tommy Young · Post by **Tommy Young** » 11 Aug 2007 9:44 pm

IF any of you are going to ST.LOUIS I will have a Booth there with some guitars of different brands that I have MODIFIED and will have a pod xt and earphones so that you can play and hear the changes that I have made to them PLEASE FEEL FREE TO STOP AND SAY HI AND PLAY ONE thanks TOMMY

MAX-TONE MODIFICATIONS
My booth will be between the DERBY and the Fulawka rooms just to the right when you come down the eskalator

Ken Byng · Post by **Ken Byng** » 12 Aug 2007 12:09 am

Michael - great post. Your comments highlight the variables with all wooden bodied instruments. Some pedal steel guitars will be be dogs, with a lack of sustain that no matter how much tinkering or 'modding' is done will always have a lack of sustain. Most steel guitars have a good amount of sustain and a minority will have incredible sustain. Moisture content and wood grain do play a part along with the metal components and screw torque. A guy in the UK makes a pedal steel called a Sheffield, and they accoustically sustain more than any guitar I've heard. The bottom line is - which of your 2 guitars mentioned do you prefer the tone of when you are playing through an amp if you had to make a choice?

John Coop · Post by **John Coop** » 12 Aug 2007 4:02 am

Mike...in all of the session work you are doing these days which one of your guitars are the recording engineers requesting that you use the most ? Coop

Michael Douchette · Post by **Michael Douchette** » 12 Aug 2007 4:28 am

Why, Coop and Ken... the ONLY guitar I take to sessions these days is my "beautiful Sho-Bud instrument" (think Jack Boles). Nothing I've ever owned sounds better! It's quite the ear turner, I'll tell ya...

KENNY KRUPNICK · Post by **KENNY KRUPNICK** » 12 Aug 2007 4:54 am

Mikey, Do you still have your Franklin SD-10 you played with Billy Walker at The ET Shoppe Mid-night Jamboree?

Michael Douchette · Post by **Michael Douchette** » 12 Aug 2007 4:55 am

Kenny, yes, I still have my old Tammy W./Billy W. guitar...

Danny Hullihen · Post by **Danny Hullihen** » 12 Aug 2007 5:29 am

Hey Mike. I remember Jack Boles very well! I did a couple of the "Sho-Bud Showcase" WSM radio shows with him back in the early 70's. Lot's of good memories there. I wander if anyone kept the tapes from these shows?

Michael Douchette · Post by **Michael Douchette** » 12 Aug 2007 5:42 am

Danny, I don't know if anyone has copies of those. It would be wonderful to have a set.

Quick Boles/Don Helms story: If you know Jack, and that booming voice of his... one morning a while back at McDonald's in Hendersonville, Jack and a friend were having breakfast... Don's pretty much a regular there, and when he walked in, Boles stood up and thundered, "Ladies and gentlemen, please make welcome a steel guitar legend, one of Hank Williams' original Drifting Cowboys, MR. DON HELMS!" Don, of course, took his bow... just hilarious...

Hook Moore · Post by **Hook Moore** » 12 Aug 2007 5:55 am

Mikey, thats an interesting question and I certainly have no answer but I`ll throw this out there too. My M3 Millennium has No wood and sustains beautifully.
Hook

Danny Hullihen · Post by **Danny Hullihen** » 12 Aug 2007 5:58 am

Mike, that definately sounds like Jack Boles alright, and he had a voice that really made you pay attention we he said something! I haven't seen Jack in decades now, but he sure was a lot of fun to be with. Yes, it would be nice if someone still had the tapes of those radio shows. For a long time, many of them were kept stored at the old Sho-Bud store on Broadway. Maybe we'll get lucky and someone will chime in here with some knowledge about that?

Talk about "sustain" now there's a voice that had a ton of sustain!

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 12 Aug 2007 6:56 am

Dave Mudgett wrote:I've always been sorta puzzled why anybody thinks there is some single or even small set of factors that determine sustain of a vibrating string attached to some physical mechanism or body. The issue is the manner of energy exchange with the rest of the guitar, and there are a whole lot of variables on a PSG......................

On the contrary, I am convinced that it can be attributed to a single issue. Now, if only I could narrow it down and localize the problem.

This has me totally baffled.

I think its the acoustics of the room.

Is it true that Zane Beck invented the Zebco?

John Coop · Post by **John Coop** » 12 Aug 2007 7:21 am

Donna Jackson has all of the original tapes. Coop

Brad Malone · Post by **Brad Malone** » 12 Aug 2007 7:34 am

Yeah, Sho-Bud made the most beautiful Steel in the world, topside, but the mechanics underneath were sloppy at best, especially on the Professional model, plus there was a lack of consistency of production, some were good and some were sub-par. Sho-Bud was ahead of its time and then quickly fell behind...I guess that's the reason they no longer exist....too bad because one time the Steel world belonged to them...all this is JMHO

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 12 Aug 2007 8:03 am

If I'm not mistaken, there's hard rock maple under the mica in every guitar I know of.

Not the Sierras I have owned. Further, both of these guitars have long sustain qualities. Although I like hard rock maple too, I don't think it's necessary for long sustain.

Jon, I prefer the Ockham's razor approach to modeling also. So if you ever isolate that single nirvana factor and do some experiments to justify it, y'all let us know, OK? I'd love to be proven wrong - sure would make life simpler. Ah, yes, the simple life of design in one - or even two or three - dimensions.

Hey, where's Ed Packard?

admin · Post by **b0b** » 12 Aug 2007 8:41 am

Michael Douchette wrote:I know the theories regarding sustain, tone, etc. I also understand tone is a totally subjective quantity, while sustain is objective; something that can actually be measured. Theoretically, my Emmons double wide formica p/p with aluminum necks should have the most sustain of any guitar I own. It does indeed ring for a very, very long time. However, my single neck wood body wood neck all pull Sho-Bud way outrings my Emmons, anywhere in the scale. Yes, it has been Coop-ed, my Emmons has been Cass-ed. Both are mechanically at the top of their game.

Thoughts?

I think that the biggest difference comes from the alloy used for the changer fingers. Just my 2 cents.

Brad Malone · Post by **Brad Malone** » 12 Aug 2007 2:56 pm

Why the formica covered bodies? If a guy wants a aluminum neck, why not place it on a wood body...it seems that the formica was a way of hiding something like cheap wood. I could understand this on cheap instruments but not on $3000 instruments...I thought formica was for kitchen counter tops..what am I missing?

Bill Dobkins · Post by **Bill Dobkins** » 12 Aug 2007 4:04 pm

Mica last longer with very little maintenance.
Varnish, lacquer ect will crack. Also mica is cheaper. I'm sure there other reasons that I'm not aware of.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 12 Aug 2007 4:17 pm

I thought formica was for kitchen counter tops..what am I missing?

Nothing, really. Formica and similar phenolics like Wilsonart were used on steels for the same reasons they used them on counter-tops..."eminent practicality". It resisted any spills and stains, it didn't fade or change color, it didn't craze or crack in temperature extremes, and it was practically burn-proof. In past eras (when smoking was far more popular), most steelers wound up with cigarette burns on their steels (from laying their cigarettes down during solos). The Formica finishes eliminated all those pesky problems that wood was so prone to.

Colin Mclean · Post by **Colin Mclean** » 12 Aug 2007 8:06 pm

This discussion is very interesting to me.

I come from the world of 6 string guitars where a forum discussion about what makes a guitar sustain can almost turn violent (lol), and the use of formica as a finish would without a doubt be the first thing to blame for a lack of tone or sustain. No guitar player I know of would ever DREAM of covering his axe with formica, for a deathly fear it would suck all life out of the guitar.

People seem to think wood needs to "breathe", which I don't understand, first of all. Like air is what makes a guitar sound good/sustain?

The funniest part is, people think a guitar with a clear finish should sound better than one with a solid color because you can see the grain, therefore the wood is breathing more. So what??? I would think the wood has the same amount, if not just a different type, of filler in the grain before the last coat is applied.

I find it interesting that formica really is used as the finish on many steel guitars. I'm not saying it doesn't make sense to me, Donny's post seems to spell it out pretty well--but a Strat or Tele can get dinged up, and the paint worn off, and it's a good thing. They call it "mojo", like it's got this magical energy from years of hard gigging. I guess steel players don't agree with this, lol. If you don't want dings and scratches on your steel, you could just:

not set your beer down on your guitar
not set a lit cigarette on your guitar
try not to drop it

Things we would all do anyway, right?

I like the look of a nice piece of wood with about 10 coats of nice glossy varnish on it. But as has been mentioned, over time it will crack or fade, and need refinishing.

Just to stir the pot (heh, heh) has the issue of quarter-sawn vs. flat-sawn wood ever come up on the subject of tone and sustain? IMHO I guess if density has anything to do with it, quarter sawn would be the way to go. Just sayin'.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 13 Aug 2007 5:48 am

Quote:
"I was not trying to use this as a judge of guitar quality."

"I know, Mike. But, you'd be surprised how many players do!"

I think everyone is trying to figure out why great players sound great other than talent, hard work, innate musicality, extreme dedication to practice, and just plain being better than you - consequently "sustain" has been elevated to the level of a major deity. The sustain arguments that Colin allude to among six-stringers are pretty hilarious and/or pathetic, considering how much equipment is sold on it's sustaining qualities.

There's an aftermarket brand of tunematic bridge called "Tone Pro" that locks the posts and wheels, and proclaims loudly how much it helps the sustain - even new guitars are coming equipped with Tone Pros, and they loudly repeat the claims of the manufacturer.

Umm - have you ever tried to turn the wheels on a tunematic when the strings are up to full pitch?

It seems to me that the originals do a pretty darn good job of "string transmission..." I could even make the argument that making a bridge out of a bunch of different pieces of metals of different densities is actually going to lessen sustain. Since no one has EVER done any kind of objective research on the actual results of locking the little bits down (they'd be quoting the bejeebers out of it, if it actually proved something) it hardly matters....

Remember those funky little bent-metal Stratocaster bridge saddles? And how many people claim that Hendrix or Stevie Ray might've amounted to something, if they'd have just had a leettle more sustain.... Now the aftermarket manufacturers of funky little bent-metal bridge saddles claim that they are the root cause of a Strat's great sustain, just as the manufacturers of solid metal (steel, brass) bridge pieces claim that they have the sustain. Since no one ever actually measures anything, it's ALL good....

My favorite manufacturer's website is Jim Dunlop's, they make about a hundred different guitar picks, each of which are better than all the others - there is no "worst pick" on their site. According to Jimbo, the right pick can actually increase both your speed, AND your sustain - a good thing to know, if you're wondering why your playing sucks. Since each and every pick is better than all the others, I guess you just have to try them all?

My Pick can Eat Your Momma

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 13 Aug 2007 8:13 am

If "Blocking" is so critically important, why is "Sustain" important?

Seriously... If your axe can sustain the first notes of an instrumental version of, say, Blue Spanish Eyes (ie. the words Blue, and Eyes), you should be good to go on pretty much anything in country music, no?

Anyone have any examples of a song that your axe doesn't have enough sustain to play?

Colin Mclean · Post by **Colin Mclean** » 13 Aug 2007 11:14 am

Well, I do have to admit that I have noticed a lack of sustain on my guitar, ie playing NY's "Heart of Gold", on the "and I'm gettin' old" part, the notes seem to die out instead of ringing on as long as Ben Keith's do.

Only having been a player of the instrument for a week, however, that could easily be attributed to operator error. Or a cheap guitar.

Funny you should mention those saddles on the old Stratocasters, David. I just got my Strat out of the shop with brand new frets, a bone nut, and a set-up. Before it didn't sustain for shit, now it rings on and on for days. Was it the new frets? New nut? the expert set-up? I'll never know or care. It sounds good.

Ken Byng · Post by **Ken Byng** » 13 Aug 2007 11:15 am

Anyone have any examples of a song that your axe doesn't have enough sustain to play?

Nessun Dorma

admin · Post by **b0b** » 13 Aug 2007 1:00 pm

If you can play the second phrase of Emmons' "Blue Jade", you have enough sustain.

The Steel Guitar Forum

Sustain, and what we think to be true.

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Sho~Bud Showcase Tapes

beautiful Sho-Bud instrument"

Re: Sustain, and what we think to be true.

aluminum necks and wood bodies