C6 - Why not both C's to C#?

Peter Freiberger · From: California, USA

I'm new to C6 so apologies in advance, especially if this has already been covered, but if you raise the string 3 C a half step on a knee is there a good reason not to raise the the 7th string C with it? It seems pretty convenient. You can't brush a full b9 chord on strings 7 to 3 (with an A to Bb lever) but there is another root on the 10th string (or down two frets with pedals 5&6).

Petr Freiberger

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

FWIW, I raise them both.

Peter Freiberger · From: California, USA

And it's your old PP Emmons D10 I'm playing (well "playing" may be too strong a term at this point).

Peter

John Bechtel · From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.

Buck Reid (w/Lyle Lovette) raises both #3-C and #7-C to C#'s and I do also. Quite useful, IMO.
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Herb Steiner · From: Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064

I raise both with RKR as well. In combination with p.5, you get a full A6 chord from s.9 to s.2
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Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

Particularly if you're using a D first string, having both 3 & 7 to C# is very valuable combined with P5 for the 6th chord with the fifth on top on string 2, as Herb says.

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

Paddy Long · From: Christchurch, New Zealand

I raise them both ! - with D on top

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

I have a middle D that I lower to C# on that lever, giving me both worlds! I use that middle C# note a lot. Raising just the high C# against the middle C note is very useful in jazz chords that I haven't discovered yet.
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Peter Freiberger · From: California, USA

I considered eliminating the 10th string C for a 6th string D (and lowering it to a C# sounds like a great idea) but I think I'll wait. There's a 4,6 and 9th string grip that would become a bit wide. And with a 7th string C to C# and the 6th pedal E to Eb I can go down one fret and get the missing C to D step (without using both feet for pedals 6 & 8).

So far every one seems to favor raising 3 and 7. Does anyone see any drawbacks?

Joseph Carlson · From: Grass Valley, California, USA

I'm no expert, but I don't raise both C's because I have E9 changes on the same lever. The action would be too stiff with all those changes. Also, P8 raises the lower C if need be.

Peter Freiberger · From: California, USA

Right now I have both C's to C# on my RKL, along with E's to F on the E9 neck. And high C to B on the RKR with E's to D# on the E9. I wanted the knees to function similarly on both necks. RKL is heavier but not so bad. One could have less effort/more travel with the change on a left knee, or get good at two footed playing, which may still be the better way.

Although it's convenient for me, with my E9 mentality, to move the C's up together, and maybe also the A's to Bb/Ab, I'd bet there's a good reason Mr. Emmons and others don't move these strings together (To me a big difference to the E9 concept, where almost all the standard changes are the same to both octaves). My first guess is that it has to do with melodic independence on the higher octave while maintaining a chord below, but I'd like to know from some of you real C6 guys!

Peter Freiberger

Herb Steiner · From: Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064

I move both C strings to C# together, for the above stated reason of 1) the availability of the full A6 chord when used with p.5, and 2) the augmented chord when used with p.6

I do, however only raise (A-Bb) and lower (A-Ab) s.4 on the levers that accomplish those changes (LKL and LKR respectively), for these reasons:

1) with A-Bb, I use the change for an 11th chord with p.6, and so I want s.8 unchanged. Trade-off: I use this raise for an augmented with p.5; however, I forego the lower aug note on s.8 since it doesn't figure very predominantly in my style. Likewise with a C7 chord; I mostly use the change in the upper strings.

2) With A-Ab, it's use as a #11 note with p.5 is best voiced higher. Likewise with an Fm6/maj7 using the s.9 as the root tone. Also the change is indispensible for a very common descending voicing on s.4 and s.5 with p.5. Trade-off: sometimes a descending line on s.8 is a handy voicing, but I don't use it enough to miss it that much.
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Ian Kerr · From: Queensland, Australia

Mine are separate because mainly I don't want lower
chord interference when I'm changing notes in the upper parts of chords.

chas smith R.I.P. · From: Encino, CA, USA

I have both C's to C# on LKL, the same way I have both E's to F on LKL on the E9, it's the same basic change, a 1 something to 6 something.

Robbie Daniels · From: Casper, Wyoming, USA

I have a 6th pedal that was installed when I ordered my new Carter that rises my upper C to C#, but I opted to raise my D to D# instead of the lower C. The lower C is already being raised with 8th floor pedal, which meets my meager requirements.
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Bob Kagy · From: Lafayette, CO USA

I have both C's to C# on a knee lever. Sometimes I unscrew the tuning nut on the bottom one but not usually. Somewhere on Buddy Emmons website, he gives an answer as to why he doesn't raise both, just the top one. I think it involves being able to get the C7b9 using the 7th string as the root, but I'm not sure.

Herb, I sure like the way you think and describe how you use your C6 changes. I have a setup that has many of those changes, and have found some but not all the progressions and walk-ups you've described. Nice, thanks.

I do have one question for you though, and that's how do you tune your C6th? Is it one of the systems like JI, ET, meantone or is it just your own ear that you use. The reason I ask is that even going to 1/6 meantone, which is very close to ET, I hear some awkward sounds on some of those combinations.

Thanks, Bob

Herb Steiner · From: Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064

Bob
Thanks for the compliments.

The way I tune the C6 is basically "straight up." I do touch up s.2 and 6 slightly to where it "sounds good."
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My rig: Infinity and Telonics.

Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg?

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

While i have the 3rd string raise to C#, I don't raise the Middle C. I was wondering why we don't raise the 3rd string to C# on pedal 8 (Boo-Wah)?
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Herb Steiner · From: Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064

We don't raise s.3 on p.8 because it would negate the #9 chord, and then we couldn't play "Purple Haze." Wink

_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.

Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg?

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

Bob Kagy · From: Lafayette, CO USA

Herb, thanks for your reply.

Richard, I also find it nice to be able to lower the top C to B with the boo-wah pedal down, then gliss it up to C# with a knee pedal, boo-wah still down.

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