Cone Drop with Trilogies and Palm Levers

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 1 Jun 2007 5:03 pm

Basil Henriques brought up this subject a few months ago, but the old Forum topics can't be reopened, so I'm starting a new thread.

All instruments with a body cavity suffer to a greater or lesser extent to "table drop". It's the phenomenon most pronounced on a banjo, and least on an archtop guitar, where tightening a string pushes down on the vellum or table, causing all the other strings to go flat. So you have to keep tuning until you're satisfied that it's about as in tune as you're going to get it.

Unfortunately a resonator instrument is more prone to table drop than one with a wooden top, it being in the nature of the cone to flex more.

So we come to the problem of using the Hipshot Trilogy or Palm Levers on a Dobro. Has anyone yet overcome the problem of tightening or loosening any of the strings without throwing the others out of tune? I ask because I'm planning to build a lap steel with a resonator and a Hipshot Trilogy.

Post by **Brad Bechtel** » 1 Jun 2007 5:13 pm

The only people I know who use a Hipshot Trilogy on resonator guitar are Jerry Douglas and Pete Grant. I've never tried one myself.

Todd Weger · Post by **Todd Weger** » 3 Jun 2007 8:03 am

Alan, this probably doesn't really help with your question, but have you seen the Duesenberg Multibender? There's a thread from back in November about this:

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... baf1040558

Download some of the video clips, particularly number 4. With a solid body instrument like the Strat, table drop doesn't appear to be an issue. I'm not sure how one of these would work on a dobro, though. Also, in the thread, Martin says:

If you are very, very patient, wait for the lap steel version, which is planned for the future.

Not sure how soon that will be, but sounds like it might be worth checking into. Like Mike Ihde says, the really cool thing is that you can push the levers out of the way, when you need to.

I'm wondering if with a metal body reso, drop wouldn't be as much of an issue?

EDIT: whoops! I should have read further down the thread! I see you already have seen all of this, Alan. Sorry for jumping the gun! -TJW

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 3 Jun 2007 10:57 am

Yes, I ordered and received a Duesenberg Multibender plus two extra palm levers about a week ago and it looks well made. I look forward to building an instrument around it. My plan is for a lap steel.

I'm also planning a lap steel with a resonator, using an 8-string Hipshot Trilogy which I have on order, but they will be two different instruments. It's this second instrument I'm concerned about table drop on. It will be less noticable than on an instrument with a large body cavity. I shall have to experiment. But then, that's half the fun.

I had thought of using the two together, but, as has been explained, they both require the ball ends of the strings to terminate at their unit. Even if it were possible, it would be impossible to tune the palm levers and expect them to work in tune after having changed with tension of the strings with the Trilogy.

Martin Huch · Post by **Martin Huch** » 3 Jun 2007 12:21 pm

Hey guys, there`s a lot of good news from Duesenberg concerning steel guitar:

1.The Multibender for Telecaster is now available.

2.We already have a prototyp for resonator guitar, that works perfect. Just like the original Multibender: NO tuning problems at all !! Give us two more mounth.....

3.At the moment, we are developing a beautiful longscale lap steel with the multibender included and - fasten your seatbelts - a built-in capo !!
That will be the most fexible lap steel ever made: providing pedal steel sounds AND lap/slide playing using open strings in EVERY key on one instrument. This project as well is almost done, the capo workes as great as the Multibender. We have to hurry up, cause I definately need one of these babes for a tour in october.....
Stay tuned !! regards from Germany, Martin

Nathan Hernandez · Post by **Nathan Hernandez** » 4 Jun 2007 7:35 am

Is there any way to mount a post in the cavity under the cone where bridge sits to keep this from happening? I dont know how this would hinder the sound a Reso makes cause it would limit the vibration of the cone,,,

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 4 Jun 2007 4:31 pm

Nathan Hernandez wrote:Is there any way to mount a post in the cavity under the cone where bridge sits to keep this from happening? I dont know how this would hinder the sound a Reso makes cause it would limit the vibration of the cone,,,

I thought of that, but it seems like it would defeat the whole object of having the resonator there if the resonator is not allowed to resonate.

Keith Cordell · Post by **Keith Cordell** » 5 Jun 2007 5:15 am

Sounds cool, Martin. I am intrigued by the idea of a built in capo- can't picture it at all- combined with the Multibender. The mind boggles.

Bernard Beck · Post by **Bernard Beck** » 6 Jun 2007 12:19 am

Oh Martin, you are describing one of my dreams. I sure hope it comes true, be sure to let us know when this multiuse steel comes to life. Is it possible to go on a waiting list to try one of those ?
Good Luck on your project.
Bernard

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 6 Jul 2007 3:43 pm

I've reached the design stage of the resonator lap steel with a Hipshot Trilogy and now that I've received all the necessary parts I've been doing some experiments prior to committing myself to a particular design.

It seems that players who experienced cone drop in previous threads were working with deep-bodied regular-shaped resonator guitars. The Hipshot needs a solid body to attach itself to. If the unit is screwed into the thin top of a regular Dobro, and the cone is also supported by the same top, or by some other place inside the sound chamber, experiencing drop in the table is almost inevitable when you change the tension of the strings, and I would expect it to be even more marked if you used palm levers.

My experiments of isolating the Hipshot Trilogy and the cone, so that they are resting on different supports, has not shown any measurable difference in bridge height as the tension of the strings is changed.

Does anyone have any experience of using a Hipshot Trilogy on a SOLID LAP STEEL WITH A RESONATOR ?

Bernard Beck · Post by **Bernard Beck** » 8 Jul 2007 11:07 pm

Now Alan, your idea sounds very logical. The question is : who makes solid body guitars with a resonator. It seems Paul Beard does with the Road-O-Phonic model. The only thing is that it cost 1500$ !!!
Now, maybe it is doable (but certainly out of my range) to homebuild such a solid body steel with a resonator, and a trilogy.
I certainly hope to read about such an instrument soon.
Just keep on picking AND tinckering.
Bernard

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 9 Jul 2007 7:03 pm

Bernard, remember that I'm a luthier, and have been building instruments since 1963. I'm an organiser of the Northern California Association of Luthiers, and I know most of the instrument builders on the West Coast. We have regular meetings and they're a great resource to refer to. I can build most string instuments, so the problem is not building the instrument but figuring out what is going to work. I usually spend months planning an instrument. I spend hours in research and planning. Once I've figured it all out the actual building is the shortest part of the project. I can build a lap steel over the weekend in just a few hours. But I spend months figuring it all out. That's the stage I'm at right now. I'm gathering other people's opinions, so that I can mull it over. I've never used a Hipshot Trilogy before, but I've seen lots of them installed on Stratocasters. I'm wondering if that's not a bad place to start, because unless you place the instrument on a table you're going to have problems holding it. That's more of a problem with the lap steel I'm planning with palm levers. If I build it like a regular lap steel it might be difficult to work the instrument without it turning over. I might use a Stratocaster-shaped body. I had a problem once building a hummel (mountain dulcimer) with a wheel like a hurdy-gurdy, It looked okay on paper but when I built it, as soon as I turned the wheel the instrument turned round with it, so I needed C-clamps to clamp it down to the table.
It's all great fun, and I'll be sure to keep you abreast of the project as it progresses.

Greg Booth · Post by **Greg Booth** » 9 Jul 2007 8:16 pm

Brad Bechtel wrote:The only people I know who use a Hipshot Trilogy on resonator guitar are Jerry Douglas and Pete Grant. I've never tried one myself.

Curtis Burch has one on a Wolfe I believe.

Bernard Beck · Post by **Bernard Beck** » 10 Jul 2007 1:43 am

Ok Alan, I am sorry about speaking of tinckering since you are a luthier.
Here is an idea I had about the trilogy :
Why not put the trilogy at the top of the neck in the nut position, and having a keyless tuner type of endpiece.
That way, the mechanical action of the trilogy would be absorbed by the whole length of the neck and the only thing that would come to the cone would be the difference in string tension.
Let me know if it makes sense or if it is a totally stupid idea.
Bernard

Bob Knetzger · Post by **Bob Knetzger** » 10 Jul 2007 3:47 pm

A couple years back I saw Robin and LInda Williams and their dobro player had a Dobro 'lectric-- the one with a sold guitar body and a biscuit style res cone (more like a National, not a spider bridge as on a Dobro). He had a Trilogy tailpiece on it and he used it to change tunings between songs. He said it worked pretty good, but that you really did have to touch up with the tuning pegs a little after switching a few of the toggles.

I'd guess there would always be just enough string hyteresis, string/bridge/nut drag, cone flex, neck flex and what not that you'd always have to do a tiny tweak. (Let's not even get into just vs ET tuning here!)

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 10 Jul 2007 5:37 pm

Bernard Beck wrote:Ok Alan, I am sorry about speaking of tinckering since you are a luthier.
Here is an idea I had about the trilogy :
Why not put the trilogy at the top of the neck in the nut position, and having a keyless tuner type of endpiece...

No need to apologise, Bernard, I'm glad for your input. That's not a bad idea, to put the Trilogy at the nut end. I could put the tuners at the bridge end. They did a similar thing on the MultiKord, which has the tuners at the bridge end.
Looking at it mathematically (I'm a Mathematics major), it shouldn't make any difference which ends the tortioners are applied, since the same vertical tensors apply. The decision as to which end of the string to apply the pull has no sound differential, only appearance. My daughter is an artist who recently graduated from the Rhode Island School of Design, and I've been talking to her re the appearance. Looking at 50s steels, when you compare a New Yorker to a Steelmaster, the main difference is the design. I'm currently designing a double-course instrument for a fellow steeler: I know that basically it's a plank with pickups, so the only visible differences between this and any other lap steel is going to be the shape, which has no effect on the sound.

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 10 Jul 2007 10:13 pm

Ivan Guernsey called me a couple of years ago, with a Trilogy he'd mounted on a dobro---Might be the one Jerry plays, but I don't know. Anyway, the tunings seemed to change OK, and stayed in tune as well. I think the key would be making sure the strings were properly stretched before using the Trilogy.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 11 Jul 2007 10:09 pm

Yes, and I've often thought that building a roller bridge to go on the resonator would avoid unequal tension distribution along the string. When you change the tension on any string instrument the tension first changes between the tuner and the nut, then slides through the nut and equalises itself until it reaches the bridge, and then equalises again between the bridge and the endpin. It's a common problem to tune a guitar and then start playing, during which time the guitar goes out of tune as the strings equalise the tension. Some nuts hold the strings quite tight, so you're playing with a high tension build-up between the tuners and nut, which can release itself spontaneously at the worst possible time. It's like a wound-up time bomb waiting to happen. Roller bridges equalise almost immediately, and that is why ALL pedal steel guitars have roller bridges and roller nuts. Without them, with all those pulls and pushes via the pedals and knee levers you would never get it to stay in tune.
The same thing happens on a lap steel and a Dobro, which is why I incorporate roller nuts and bridges into every instrument I build. Tiny rollers can be made out of the ball-ends of strings.

Bob Hickish · Post by **Bob Hickish** » 18 Jul 2007 1:50 pm

Alan

I think your Idea is a good one . years ago I built a platform that would hold a modal 60
Dobro and figured a method of making it operate with pedals . it gets very complex as you
get to the area your talking about . in answer to your question of cone sag , there is - IMO -
to much down pressure on the cone that cause this . I would guess a very flat bend of the strings
over the bridge , with just enough down pressure on the bridge to activate the cone ! Thats not
very much pressure maybe 10 Lbs. total --- of all strings --- or less .
The only other thing that may be a problem is the cone itself . as you know they are spun from
dead soft 6061 aluminum , I don't know what the "T" factor is after spinning but would guess maybe
"T6" the older they are the harder they are . so one with a high T factor will hold up better under
load . there is a way to heat treat them but may cause them to warp making it harder to set up in
the instrument .

Just some of my Ideas , good luck .
Hick

Danny James · Post by **Danny James** » 18 Jul 2007 6:27 pm

Alan,

I have been watching these posts and a lot of good points have been brought out.

I don't consider myself a Luthier, but I agree with you whole heartedly on using rollers on nuts and bridges. How any guitar stays in tune that has a tuning changer and no rollers for the nuts or bridge where applicable, is a mystery to me.

I have designed and built a lapsteel with a tuneable changer in it. Four tunings with one single lever and fully adjustable.

I made gauged rollers for the nut. There are fingers on the other end similar to those on a pedal steel, so rollers were not necessary on that end.

This guitar stays in tune very well. It is made of Wild Cherry with a Rick Aiello--- MRI type pickup. It has sustain that I am extremely pleased with. It is clear, sharp, and crisp, even on the highest frets. Yet it has a full range of tone.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 18 Jul 2007 7:26 pm

Bob Hickish wrote:... there is - IMO -
too much down pressure on the cone that cause this.

Yes, Bob, you've hit the nail on the head. The rule of the triangle of forces shows that the shallower the angle at the bridge the less downward force, and it's that downward force that creates the cone drop. With a shallower angle I imagine cone drop could be virtually eliminated. Of course, you need some downward pressure, but looking at instruments such as the cittern and lute, you don't need much downward pressure to make the table, or in this case the cone, vibrate.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 18 Jul 2007 7:28 pm

Danny James wrote:...I have designed and built a lapsteel with a tuneable changer in it. Four tunings with one single lever and fully adjustable...

That sounds very interesting, Danny. Do you have a photo ?

Danny James · Post by **Danny James** » 19 Jul 2007 6:06 am

Alan,

I can send you a photo by snail mail if you would like to post it. I do not know how to do it myself.

If Rick Aiello still has a picture of it and sees this he may re-post it. It was in the archives here about a yr. ago and I think it was among those that were lost.

Thanks

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 19 Jul 2007 8:42 am

Downward string pressure is on the spider - not the cone and then only secondarily on to the cone thru the center screw,which is adjustable.So theoretically you should be able to have neck breaking string tension on a reso and at the same time anywhere between zero and cone crushing tension on that screw that connects the cone to the bridge.In terms of real-time tuning altering gadgets,as well as these things are made and with all their roller bridges and nuts,I have yet to see one rigged up to where all the changes are in tune enough to play it on a gig.I've owned and played trilogys on resos and stout solid body laps and they are never quite in tune. You're always having to manually touch up the changes that are supposed to be precisely done by the gadget.You may as well just manually re-tune.It's not Dave's fault - his engineering and workmanship are second to none - it's the physics in play especially with acoustic reso instruments. The whole thing is just too squirrily for me.Gimme a fixed tuning anyday and I'll just get to slantin'. Otherwise I'll play a pedal steel.

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 19 Jul 2007 9:12 am

Here's Danny's changer ... w/ Bobby Ingano at the helm ...