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Topic: Fiddle and Steel at the Same Time? |
Chris LeDrew
From:
Canada
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Posted 10 Jul 2007 6:56 am |
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The fiddle player in our band is a great player. He's got a lot of experience recording and performing. We have a lot of fun trading off licks and fills. His intonation is great, and he's mindful of his tuning. However, when we play together, it can get snaky, especially when we're landing on the same notes in the same octaves, etc. I'd blame it on myself, only I'm locking in tuning-wise when playing alone as well.
I've heard a few times that fiddle and steel should not be playing at the same time unless particular harmonized parts are worked out. Any comments or feelings on this matter? Any age-old protocol attached to this situation?
_________________
Jackson Steel Guitars
Web: www.chrisledrew.com |
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Skip Edwards
From:
LA,CA
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Posted 10 Jul 2007 7:19 am
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Chris, I always found that usually the steel will do a one note harmonic - often followed by a sliding the harmonic up the neck to another fret - when the fiddle does its thing.
I've heard it done like that many times on record and live. And I suspect the reason for it is because the darn things are so hard to play in tune with. |
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Bo Legg
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Posted 10 Jul 2007 7:39 am
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| One of my rules that I play by is never play 2nd fiddle. Its like signing up to furnish the butt at a butt kickin contest. |
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Ray Montee
From:
Portland, Oregon (deceased)
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Posted 10 Jul 2007 7:48 am About those fiddle players..........
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I used to always play with a fiddler in the band. He was a great guy, competent musician and we routinely played a lot of three part harmony stuff with the lead guitarist. Great Western Swing....... His name was ED Whitaker and lived and played music in the Reno, NV area for years, prior to his passing. He also toured the country with his band and some of you might also have met him. He was down to earth country fiddler.
At no time would he play when anyone else was playing; likewise for me or the lead guitarist. Each back-up musician took a turn and than would relinquish the reins and the next guy would take-over.
On the television show during the mid-1960's, we had an accordion and ace fiddler. Both were great musicians and we all worked together. Those two did a lot of two part harmony thingies.....and on occasion, we did some three part. No one ever got in the way of another. Some of this stuff can be heard on the Hawaiian Steel Guitar Assn. sight, if'n your curious. |
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Chris LeDrew
From:
Canada
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Posted 10 Jul 2007 11:21 am
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Skip, I remember we talked about this issue in Dallas. That conversation is part of why I started this thread. We didn't explore the issue much beyond making a joke about how both can't play together without devastation. Ha-ha. Yes, that harmonic slide thing seems common when the fiddle takes over.
Ray, you're definitely right about the whole gentleman aspect of it all. I also think that if you lay out a lot, others may follow suit....sometimes. 
Bo, you've gone over my head!
_________________
Jackson Steel Guitars
Web: www.chrisledrew.com |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 10 Jul 2007 1:11 pm
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I've noticed the same problem playing with horns. When two instruments are played by ear, probably neither one is perfect. While each may sound close enough alone, together there can be a problem when you hit the exact same note. Part of the problem is getting confused about which is which. You can hear the other instrument go slightly sharp, and you think it is your note, so you drop flatter and make the situation worse. The other instrument does the same thing, and you just wobble around each other. Not pleasant. Of course horns and strings play with each other all the time in orchestras. But they are use to being very precise and hearing their note separate from the others. They don't usually play as fast and happy with the pitch and rhythm as we usually do on a bandstand. My solution is to avoid playing in the same range as the other instrument. Either get way higher or way lower, or drop out. Or accept whatever happens as part of the wild sound you are going for. There is a time and place for everything. I've heard horns playing free jazz take that kind of mismatch and work it into the texture of the sound, with relish.  |
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Tommy Mc
From:
Middlesex VT
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Posted 10 Jul 2007 4:08 pm
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| I've always felt that fiddle and steel both fill the same musical niche and are best not played at the same time. Having said that, I'm currently working on the intro and break to Faron Young's "Wine Me Up" which features twin fiddles and steel playing in harmony. I'm sure there are countless other examples where the parts are choreographed and work well. |
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Tommy Detamore
From:
Floresville, Texas
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Skip Edwards
From:
LA,CA
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Posted 10 Jul 2007 10:54 pm
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| Very nice, Tommy. |
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James Martin (U.K.)
From:
Watford, Herts, United Kingdom * R.I.P.
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Posted 11 Jul 2007 12:27 am in a nutshell !
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| That's how it should be done,just perfect Tommy,thanks. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 11 Jul 2007 3:05 am
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| Quote: |
| I've heard a few times that fiddle and steel should not be playing at the same time unless particular harmonized parts are worked out. |
Nope. You just gotta play in tune (with each other), it's as simple as that. If everyone "backed out" when someone else was playing, where would symphony orcrestras be?  |
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Tommy Detamore
From:
Floresville, Texas
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Posted 11 Jul 2007 4:59 am
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| Skip Edwards wrote: |
| Very nice, Tommy. |
| James Martin wrote: |
| That's how it should be done,just perfect Tommy,thanks. |
Thanks guys. I don't know about perfect, but it sure doesn't hurt when you have Bobby Flores' fiddles to play to. He's the most in tune player I know.
Bobby and I do a fair amount of this kind of stuff together on recordings. We always refer to it as the "Mel Street thing", in homage and respect to what the great Lloyd Green used to do on those records.
_________________
Tommy Detamore
Source Audio, Goodrich Sound, and Stringjoy Authorized Dealer
www.cherryridgestudio.com
www.steelguitartracksonline.com |
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Jerry Hayes
From:
Virginia Beach, Va.
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Posted 11 Jul 2007 6:59 am
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I've noticed that it's easier to play with a fiddle when the band has a keyboard player or a guitarist who's laying down a solid rhythm where you can hear the chords clearly so both of you have something to intonate to other than each other. There are some exceptions I've seen over the years though. I worked with him only once at a benefit in Long Beach, Ca. but the fiddler was Billy Armstrong and he was right on the money and couldn't be shaken. Ironically the benefit was for a SoCal fiddle/saxophone player named Hank Cochram who was the same type of player. They'd both played in Tex Williams' big band and played about as "in tune" as any I've ever heard. Since I moved to Virginia 21 years ago I've only encountered one player with precise intonation and it's a fellow named Roger Gray. Roger loves to play bluegrass and classic country but he also plays at times with the Virginia Symphony and can hit you a note up the neck and it'll register "straight up" on the needle of your tuner..........JH in Va.
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Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!! |
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Roger Edgington
From:
San Antonio, Texas USA
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Posted 11 Jul 2007 7:49 am
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Good stuff Tommy. Steel and fiddle can work together just fine as long as both can play in tune and yes, Bobby plays very much in tune.
Sometimes temperature changes make it tough. Richard Helsley and I have worked together for 13 years now with Billy Mata and trade back and forth most of the time. We often play parts together,sometimes with guitar too. For the most part things are worked out in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd but sometimes Richard and I play the same notes or octaves or together similar to Tommy's sample, depending on the song. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 11 Jul 2007 7:56 am
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Great stuff Tommy!
Now...where can I get that CD?  |
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Chris LeDrew
From:
Canada
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Posted 11 Jul 2007 8:22 am
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Tommy, that's great playing. I really enjoyed. Thanks all for your informed comments.
_________________
Jackson Steel Guitars
Web: www.chrisledrew.com |
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Bill Terry
From:
Bastrop, TX
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Posted 11 Jul 2007 9:03 am
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| Quote: |
| Now...where can I get that CD? |
http://www.davejorgenson.com/
Dave is an Austin guy I've worked with many times, he's originally from Kansas I think. Always a fun gig except trying to cover Tommy's parts..
_________________
Lost Pines Studio
"I'm nuts about bolts" |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 11 Jul 2007 10:42 am
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| Tommy, Terrific playing. I'd never heard of Dave Jorgensen, but that's a really good song and he's a fine singer. I think I'm going to have to get that CD! |
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Bill Miller
From:
Gaspe, Quebec, Canada
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Posted 11 Jul 2007 10:54 am
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| I agree, great stuff Tommy. Did you do the steel on all the tracks? I've got to get hold of that. |
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Tommy Detamore
From:
Floresville, Texas
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Posted 11 Jul 2007 6:00 pm
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Thanks to everyone...Dave is a great talent who deserves a wider audience for sure. I know he would appreciate the nice comments here...
Roger, sorry I missed you on Sunday...Didn't get my session wrapped up until after 9:00..Hopefully next time...
Bill, yes, I played all of the steel and most of the guitars. The great Rick McRae from George Strait's band played on a few cuts that I couldn't handle..
Comin' at ya Ricky...!
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Tommy Detamore
Source Audio, Goodrich Sound, and Stringjoy Authorized Dealer
www.cherryridgestudio.com
www.steelguitartracksonline.com |
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Dave Harmonson
From:
Seattle, Wa
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Posted 11 Jul 2007 7:56 pm
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| I believe you can combine almost any conceivable combinations of instruments and make it work if everyone is listening and supporting each other. One of my all time favorite examples is the playing on the two Gram Parsons albums, GP and Grievous Angel. "Now I'm Still Feeling Blue" has James Burton on dobro and Byrob Berline on fiddle and I believe Buddy Emmons on steel (Al Perkins plays some of the steel on GP but each tune is not credited) and Glen D. Hardin on piano. In most cases this could get way to busy but they all put it together masterfully. I always thought "Return of the Grievous Angel" was the pinnacle of Grams tunes from a production stand point. Al Perkins, Burton on telecaster, Berline, and Glen D. lace parts around each other in a way that you don't hear very often. You know it seems with multiple players you usually wind up with one taking fills on one verse then the next on the chorus then another on the second verse on so on, but these guys are playing a measure or two then the next or together. But, I guess considering how great of players these guys are it's no wonder they made it work so well. I've got the CD with both of those albums together and it stands up as one of my all time favorites. |
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Danny Hullihen
From:
Harrison, Michigan
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Posted 12 Jul 2007 12:27 am Steel & Fiddle
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| I have a copy of Dave Jorgenson's new CD, and the fiddle and steel on this album is some of the finest I've ever heard in my life! Tommy Detamore's Style and tone is the best of the best in my opinion. This is a stellar example where steel and fiddle compliment each other in perfection. I haven't heard this kind of performance since the days of Lloyd Green! If this had been a vinyl album, I would have worn it out already! If your a fan of fiddle and steel guitar, then this new Dave Jorgenson CD is definately a "must have". |
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Marlin Smoot
From:
Kansas
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Posted 12 Jul 2007 5:19 pm
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| Textbook case study of steel, fiddle(s), lead guitar. Thanks for sharing Tommy. |
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Ray Montee
From:
Portland, Oregon (deceased)
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Posted 14 Jul 2007 8:53 am instrumental arragnements
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Winnie Winston had an album out some years ago with sheep on the cover..... and if my memory serves me correctly, he did harmony arrangements with a flute and something else, certainly not country!
It was different.........but sounded GREAT! |
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