Anyone tired a Fargen amp with pedal steel?

Marc Jenkins · Post by **Marc Jenkins** » 28 Jun 2007 9:03 am

I plugged in a Fargen Blackbird (I think it was the 20 watt version) at a local guitar store the other day. The tone was HEAVENLY. It's meant to sound like an early 60's Deluxe. I found it much more complex, however; BIG lows, buttery highs... big wow. The first chord floored me! It was much cleaner than I remember the Fender Deluxe reissue being.

Anyone tried one of these with a pedal steel?

Fargen Amps

Paddy Long · Post by **Paddy Long** » 28 Jun 2007 4:08 pm

I tried a Fargen Peavey, and I have pretty much stayed with it !!!

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 28 Jun 2007 4:11 pm

I can hear it now---MY FARGEN AMP AIN'T WORKIN'!!!

Dave Potter · Post by **Dave Potter** » 29 Jun 2007 3:47 am

"Big wow" is right. $2,250 for the privelege of taking one of those bad boys home - all 20 coveted and much sought-after watts of it.

Lemme' see now, that figures to $112.50/watt. Hmmm, at that price, a Nashville 1000 would cost $33,750.00 USD.

Marc Jenkins · Post by **Marc Jenkins** » 29 Jun 2007 8:28 am

The $2250 price tag is for the limited edition model, and the regular model sells for less.

Also keep in mind this is a completely hand-made, point-to-point wired tube amp. It's not about the watts!

Dave Potter · Post by **Dave Potter** » 29 Jun 2007 2:49 pm

Marc Jenkins wrote:The $2250 price tag is for the limited edition model, and the regular model sells for less.

Whew...I feel a lot better...

Also keep in mind this is a completely hand-made, point-to-point wired tube amp. It's not about the watts!

Yeah, I think it is, in the context I envision, that being, playing pedal steel guitar along with a band. The quality of the amp isn't in question. But putting a 20-watter up against a bass, drummer, lead guitar, and vocalist, and expecting it to hold its own, seems a stretch to me, at least. In the music store, it might sound nice. On the band-stand...well, let's just acknowledge that it's seemingly universally accepted that amplifiers suitable for pedal steel guitar on stage will normally be built in the 200-300 watt output range. To most steel guitar players, myself included, for a decent presentation of the instrument, it is about the watts, in a very big way. YMMV

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 29 Jun 2007 8:47 pm

On the band-stand...well, let's just acknowledge that it's seemingly universally accepted that amplifiers suitable for pedal steel guitar on stage will normally be built in the 200-300 watt output range. To most steel guitar players, myself included, for a decent presentation of the instrument, it is about the watts, in a very big way. YMMV

Yup, the mileage will vary. 200-300 watt ultra-clean amps are for a particular style and tonality - a commonly used one no doubt, but not universal, IMO. And even for that sound - it seems to me that there are more than a few people that find the 80-watt solid-state NV 112 to be just fine.

But I also disagree that a lower-wattage amp with the right sound can't necessarily be used in a loud band context - it depends on the sound reinforcement. If one uses the amp as part of the tone generation system and gets the volume some other way, I don't understand where the problem is. A lot of guitar players came to this conclusion 20-30 years ago and stopped carrying around huge amp stacks. Frankly, most of the people I work with would throw me out of the band if I used a 200-300 watt amp. Actually, some of my old bandmates would also argue with you if you suggested that I couldn't be loud enough with a Deluxe Reverb. Of course, mine is rodded a bit.

I have no firsthand experience with Fargen amps. But I certainly do with Fender Deluxes and Deluxe Reverbs, and set up correctly and used in an appropriate context, I like them a lot for either guitar or steel. There are a bunch of boutique "Deluxe-like" amps. If I could really get Deluxe-Reverb tone at 2-3 times the volume level, I'd do it in a New York minute.

All my opinions, naturally.

Michael Haselman · Post by **Michael Haselman** » 29 Jun 2007 9:18 pm

Well, I don't know a Fargen thing about them, but our lead player has an 18 watt Dr. Z (only $2500) and that thing screams and he rarely has it above 3.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 30 Jun 2007 6:32 am

...our lead player has an 18 watt Dr. Z (only $2500) and that thing screams and he rarely has it above 3.

Yes, but as I've said before, pedal steel is a vastly different animal from straight guitar. Though these little boutique amps popular nowadays really rock for compressed and distorted lead work, they just fall flat on their face for most pedal steel work. Push them...just a little, and the crunching begins. Your Buddy Emmons stuff quickly starts to sound more like Bonnie Raitt, and your Paul Franklin licks sound like Robert Randolph.

There must be at least 50 different brands of these little $2k-3k tube amps around now, but I don't know of a single "big name" pedal steeler that regularly uses one of these 10-25 watt boutique amps, not one! Most of these guys are on the cutting edge, soundwise, and they want something with some beef behind the notes. While they're great for "around the house" noodling, and might even work for "playing out" if you have a fine sound system and someone who knows how to run it, the first time you crank down on them "big wires" (the bottom strings), you might wish you had brought the the old "backbreaker" along!

Twayn Williams · Post by **Twayn Williams** » 30 Jun 2007 8:11 pm

Ben Fargen will custom build you an amp and I'm pretty sure that building a so-called "steel" amp would be no problem for him. He built an amp for a Chapman Stick player and those things have a giant range.

I manage just fine with a Princeton Recording Amp (15 watts) in a four piece band. I can't even turn it up loud enough to distort! Of course everyone in the band has a good handle on their volume and there's no singer, so that helps

Dave Potter · Post by **Dave Potter** » 2 Jul 2007 3:00 pm

Donny Hinson wrote:
...pedal steel is a vastly different animal from straight guitar. ....Push them...just a little, and the crunching begins..While they're great for "around the house" noodling, and might even work for "playing out" if you have a fine sound system and someone who knows how to run it, the first time you crank down on them "big wires" (the bottom strings), you might wish you had brought the the old "backbreaker" along!
Precisely. IMO, spending $2-3K for an amp for pedal steel that will only prove useful in a very few circumstances just isn't practical. Better to come equipped with some watts, and use them as required. Running that little amp through the house sound system will prolly negate all its high-priced "boutique sound" anyway.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 2 Jul 2007 5:56 pm

I guess it depends on what you're going for. What you're saying is absolutely valid for a loud honkytonk band. But that is not the only reference point. I play a fair amount with people in semi-acoustic situations with either no drummer or a very laid back one. These people get very upset if I'm too loud. I personally don't like the sound of a huge steel amp on 1-2, it's just too thin and cold for my tastes. But that's what I'd have to do with one of my big steel amps. A Princeton or Deluxe Reverb works for the lower-volume versions of these, but I could still use a bit more headroom sometimes. A beefier Deluxe-style amp would cover a lot of ground for me. In fact, I have a 50-watt custom-built tube amp that I'm trying speakers out on - built and marketed by my old guitar store, more or less a beefed up brown-panel Vibroverb but with a single 12" speaker. It just kills for Telecaster, but the regular guitar speakers aren't so good for steel - so I'm about to drop an EV SRO in it. We'll see.

I really don't see how running through house sound would negate anything. If it's a decent sound system, it's the way to go if you're trying to keep the stage volume down. Just a different perspective, all my opinions, and so on.

Dave Potter · Post by **Dave Potter** » 3 Jul 2007 2:31 am

Dave Mudgett wrote:I really don't see how running through house sound would negate anything. If it's a decent sound system, it's the way to go if you're trying to keep the stage volume down.

All it takes is a cluless sound guy turning the EQ knobs the wrong way.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 3 Jul 2007 4:46 am

Oh, yeah - a bad sound person can mess anything and everything up. But if you're going for a lower stage volume, what's the alternative? Everyone - including the steel player - needs to work with the program the band goes with. I can't be the only guy up there blaring out 200 watts when everyone else is using small amps and/or running semi-acoustically. The only solution here is to use a good sound person, or try to work with a less experienced one to get a good result. A poor and intransigent sound person will mess up the overall ensemble sound, not just the steel. I'm not so steel-centric to think that the steel is more important than the overall ensemble sound.

Let me also say that most sound people I deal with work with me to try to make the steel sound good. If one just assumes they're all bad and the only way to deal with it is to get 100% of the sound from the backline - well, for these gigs, I'd just have to stay home, or they'd fire me. That dog will not hunt in these situations. As you said earlier, YMMV, and that's cool.

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 3 Jul 2007 7:31 am

I don't have a boutique amp, but I do have a 35 watt '67 Fender Vibrolux Reverb that sounds incredible for guitar. But my Emmons pedal steel sounds like absolute crap through that amp. I've tried tweaking every knob, including the volume knob

but the tone just isn't there IMHO.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 3 Jul 2007 7:57 am

I personally don't like the sound of a huge steel amp on 1-2, it's just too thin and cold for my tastes. But that's what I'd have to do with one of my big steel amps.

Then why can't you just "dime" the volumes, and then control the volume with the volume pedal? This is what I do, and it seems to work pretty well. IMHO, amp tone is usually dependent on having enough drive to the final to make the sound "bloom". Under-driving the final causes a thin tone, with poor harmonic content.

Try it!

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 3 Jul 2007 9:04 am

Yup, Donny - I have tried that - actually, I ran the amps in the middle volume range, not dimed. To where I like the sound, it's just too loud for the gigs I'm talking about. To me - whether the low signal level to the power amp is from the preamp being low or the volume pedal being low, I find it thin. YMMV.

Doug, I also have a BFVR. Best Tele amp ever made, to my tastes, although I generally have to mic it on a loud gig to project out front. But for steel - to me - the problem is the 10" speakers. It's barely tolerable at a very low volume by turning up the bass, but doesn't sound right - again to my tastes - at "normal" playing volumes. But when I ran that amp through a closed-back cab with a JBL 12" or 15" or EV SRO speaker, I was pleasantly surprised - not the headroom of a big steel amp of course, but good for low-moderate volume. Of course, a tricked-out Deluxe Reverb makes more sense to me, since it's a nice compact package with a 12" speaker already self-contained.

I had an interesting experience about a month ago. I brought my PSG to a strongly bluegrass-leaning jam about a month ago that I have occasionally shown up to with a guitar and/or b@njo. They're happy to play some steel-oriented country tunes, but there are no drums and they only have a minimalist PA for vocals and to bring up the acoustic guitar(s) up to the b@njo level. I brought one of my smaller amps, and it fit right in. The leader came up to me afterwards and told me he had been just a bit trepidatious about having a pedal steel and really appreciated me not coming in and burying everybody, and when was I coming back? He had apparently had prior experience with steelers coming in with their big steel amps and just drowning everybody out. I'll tell ya' - I see no reason to change anything.

Dave Potter · Post by **Dave Potter** » 3 Jul 2007 3:47 pm

Dave Mudgett wrote:He had apparently had prior experience with steelers coming in with their big steel amps and just drowning everybody out. I'll tell ya' - I see no reason to change anything.

That's not necessarily an indictment of "big steel amps" - volume can be adequately controlled with the pedal. It speaks to indiscriminate players who want to dominate things - a different issue.

James Quackenbush · Post by **James Quackenbush** » 4 Jul 2007 7:22 am

Marc,
Ben Fargen makes some really great sounding amps...The Blackbird is no exception ... I had the Vox clone ( Epic 30 ) that was a GREAT sounding amp in it's own right ...You will get some nice pedal steel tones from the Blackbird, but you won't be playing it very loud in a band situation ...Picture playing your pedal steel thru a Blackface Deluxe Reverb...The Blackbird is very similar ... It depends on your application ...If you need it for a recording amp, it will work well for you...If you need it in a band situation where you are playing bars, or mid to large venues, the Blackbird would get lost ..It's a great guitar amp that would be used the same way a Deluxe Reverb would be used ... Some folks on the forum wouldn't dream of paying $2,000 for an amp ...$500 amps sound good !!....$2,000 amps sound GREAT !!....Tone is in the ear of the beholder ...or something like that ....Jim

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 4 Jul 2007 11:33 am

steelers coming in with their big steel amps

I did that for many years. I believed that I needed my 200 watt, solid state, 15" speaker, steel guitar amp for All situations, All gigs, and All recording sessions. I was wrong. There are many situations where a small tube amp will sound much better. A few years ago a got blackface Deluxe Reverb (22 watts, 12"). For small, mostly acoustic bands, playing at low volumes, it sounds So much better than my big solid state amp, warm and rich at low volumes. And for studio overdubs it's the best! Plenty of bite, and a sparking tube sound that no solid state amp can produce IMHO. It's not loud enough for most gigs, and it will break up when pushed over 5 or 6, but it's excellent in the studio and for quiet groups. For most of my gigs I use a Steel King, but I'm glad I have the DR for certain other gigs.

Dave, I agree that the (2)10" speaker configuration does not work well for steel guitar for some reason. The difference in steel guitar tone between the VR and the DR is amazing.

Nathan Golub · Post by **Nathan Golub** » 5 Jul 2007 11:37 am

Recently I bought a super cool Swart Atomic Space Tone (www.swartamps.com/swart_atomic_space_tone.htm), which is about an 18-watt amp designed to break up at very usable volumes. It sounds great for guitar and lap steel, but the George L in my Fessy is a bit too hot for the amp, except at a very low volume. It would seem that the older Fender pedal steels with the lower output pickups would sound great really cool through a modern boutique amp, since those are designed with similar pickups in mind. Do any Fender steel players use these?

Dave Potter · Post by **Dave Potter** » 5 Jul 2007 3:55 pm

Nathan Golub wrote:Recently I bought a super cool Swart Atomic Space Tone, which is designed to break up at very usable volumes.

I don't understand what you're saying about amplifiers relative to output behavior, and tone.

Are you saying (or suggesting) that an amplifier designed for pedal steel guitar should "break up" at (fill in the blank) volume? What's the definition of "break-up" - distort? That's surely not what I look for in any amp I plug my steel into.

Please elucidate.

Nathan Golub · Post by **Nathan Golub** » 6 Jul 2007 6:23 am

Sure thing Dave. As I understand it, Fender used pickups for their pedal steel guitars that were pretty much designed the same as the kind they were putting into their 6-string guitars (if I'm wrong about that, ignore pretty much everything that follows. Also, anyone feel free to correct me on misinformation). Those pickups had a much lower output, unlike the pickups used in more modern PSG's. Manufacturers of amps for steel guitar (Peavey, Webb, Sho-Bud, etc.) have taken these hotter pickups into account and design the amps to be played with steel guitar pickups. Boutique amp makers, like Fargen, are designing their amps specifically with lower-output 6-string guitar pickups in mind. I would think that a Fender PSG, or any steel equipped with a pickup closer to that of a 6-string, would work well with an amp designed specifically for that type of pickup. Since I've never had the opportunity to try that setup though, I was wondering if anyone had and what they thought of it.

As far as amplifier distortion, many of the boutique guitar amps are specifically designed to push the tubes and naturally distort at certain volumes. If you plugged a steel guitar into one, it would be with that in mind. Since guitar tone is very subjective, my question was more for anyone who's either playing through these amps at lower, distortion-free volumes, as suggested before, or is trying to get a more overdriven tone from their steel rig. If someone wanted a tone that was both loud and clean, playing through an 18-watt tube amp would not be the way to get it.

Bruce Freisinger · Post by **Bruce Freisinger** » 10 Jul 2007 6:10 pm

Dave Potter wrote:Running that little amp through the house sound system will prolly negate all its high-priced "boutique sound" anyway.

It sounds like you may not have a ton of engineering experience in live sound reinforcement, Dave. Even the most ham-handed tech can reproduce a the personality of an amplifier with a couple of basic tools (a 57 and an ear for feedback suppression.)

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 10 Jul 2007 7:17 pm

Bruce - I agree with you that it's no big deal to properly reinforce a smaller amp if you have decent PA equipment. But I've run into a few, let's say, very ham-handed sound people over the years who couldn't figure out how to set trims on a board and the only knob they knew how to tweak said "SUCK" in big bright red letters. But if a band has decided to go low-stage-volume and all bring smaller amps, there's nothing they can do about it except try to work with the sound guy. Even if I fight that decree and bring a 200-300 watt steel amp, I won't be able to turn it up to a reasonable level that sounds good to me (let's say 20-40% of capacity) without getting everybody mad. Here is where a smaller tube amp or a modeler front-end like a Pod works great. I do quite a few gigs like this.

The other thing - as Nathan already argued - is that not everybody has the same reference point on sound. The big, clean, classic pedal steel sound is not what everybody is going for in all circumstances. I sometimes get requests to push an amp harder into the red than the typical classic country steeler does - and I need to do it if I want the gig. I sure don't want to push a solid-state steel amp real far into the red. I'm not really into distortion boxes - an appropriately-scaled tube amp sounds much better to my tastes . These can be fun gigs - if they weren't, I wouldn't do 'em. Of course, this isn't everybody's cup of tea, but neither is insisting that every gig can be properly covered by a real loud & clean steel amp. All IMO, of course.