Pick Blocking

Moon in Alaska · Post by **Moon in Alaska** » 9 Jun 2007 7:17 pm

Well, to say something positive.....As a 50 plus year steel player,[since 1948] this thread has, at least, been highly ENTERTAINING !!!
Moon

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 9 Jun 2007 8:05 pm

Duane, you last response proves so many of my points regarding your attitude that it's not even worth discussing, except to say that 1) I've never put myself in the position of being an "expert steel player,2) Jeff Newman was brought up by OTHERS, not me (further noting your lack of attention to what's posted) and 3) If I'm "contentious" because I don't play lemming and blindly follow "experts" without doing some research on my own - in this case related to kinesiology - then, yep, I'm contentious. And Duane, if you HAD paid attention to who was saying what, and HAD supplied any evidence of your own, I might let you talk to the doctor - but you did neither, nor have you given a shred of information showing you're even qualified to discuss the subject. I won't waste his time.

I think that'll do. Unless you would car to go back and see how many times I stated things like "it works for many players..", "if it works for you, great", and "it's just MY opinion". But you won't.

I have a lot of respect for James and his responses. HE and I don't always agree, and we give each other a hard time - but normally with smiles on our faces and a handshake. Same goes for pretty much everyone else who responded to direct statements - not those (or one..) who responded using other's responses instead of the original statements, or made other assumptions without reading original posts, or who is playing judge/jury about who can render opinions on steel materials and who can't...or who is now reaching into the juvenile "I'll now tell everyone you're a newbie (Am I? Any idea of my musical background Duane?) so they won't believe you" bag of refuse.

Duane, I'll mail ya' a couple quarters if you need to put air back in your tires...

Sidebar - this thread deteriorated into another fine example of why it's a terrible idea for most people to EVER negatively review or criticize educational materials produced by certain revered teachers. It brings out the worst in certain forum members who feel they have to "protect the integrity of steel history" or some such swill. It seems to go in cycles, but it's truly amazing how few members jump in and play "white night"...and it appears the numbers are dwindling.

I encourage all forum members to say what they think - if you like something, say so - and if you don't say so as well. Too many members have been intimidated for far too long. Many have been run off by those who support the "same old stuff" (feel free to silently substitute the correct word for "stuff"). If my "contentious" attitude means I'm speaking my mind, and if it entices even one other member to stop sitting on the sidelines for fear of attack by the steel-police - good.

Dave Magram · Post by **Dave Magram** » 9 Jun 2007 10:57 pm

Dale Lee,

I'm glad to hear that somebody has gained something useful out of this thread!

Don't worry about the exact angle of your hand; some people become very literal about "45 degrees". It doesn't matter if it's a 39 degree or a 47 degree angle when palm-blocking; all that matters is that the edge of your hand (and perhaps a curled-under finger) touches the string and mutes it a micro-second before your finger-picks do.

If this isn't happening you need to rotate the edge your hand a degree or two towards the strings until it does happen. And it must happen as part of the same motion as lowering your hand to pick the next note-- it is not two separate motions. Find the correct angle of your hand to make it a single motion. You can even practice on a table top. The edge of your hand should touch just before your fingers do.

You can see an excellent example of this by watching any of the videos of Tom Brumley with Buck Owens on Youtube, such as "Tom Brumley - 1966 - Tom Cattin'" especially at 0:45 to 0:50 and 1:02 to 1:16 http://youtube.com/watch?v=_9RlPnOV4gs& ... ed&search=

Whether you curl a finger under or not, or whether your hand shape LOOKS just like ______ (insert name of favorite player here) doesn't matter at all.
What does matters is that you are getting the SOUND you want to get.

Congratulations on getting a grip (pun intended) on blocking-- an essential but difficult technique on the steel guitar.

Dave

Duane Reese · Post by **Duane Reese** » 9 Jun 2007 11:44 pm

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 10 Jun 2007 12:14 am

Oh, this is tiresome but necessary.

Duane - if you would pay attention to the timing the health aspects came after a doctor's visit....look at that date/time. "Oddly contorted" is absolutely my opinion, and I said so from the get-go. So pay attention to the details - you look more foolish everry time you try to dig out from under your own words.

Course, did I have it in the first place?

Yeah, you did. That's a shame.

Duane Reese · Post by **Duane Reese** » 10 Jun 2007 12:32 am

[excercise in futility aborted]

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 10 Jun 2007 7:48 am

Now is that just in your own case, or is that advice for the rest of us, too?

My suggestion would be to talk to a doctor, kinesiologist or physical therapist if any playing position causes you pain beyond that of simple excercise-related soreness from muscle group use. Because of what was being suggested as the "right" method, and because I was (as stated several times earlier) curious if I had "missed something" as far as hand position/technique (taking into acccount my slightly odd hand shape) that's exactly what I did, AFTER having tried the position in the past and finding it both uncomfortable and pretty unworkable(for me) from a picking standpoint..

His response, as I said, wasn't supportive of a claw-like postion with outstretched thumb, and suggested that the natural position of the hand at rest is more correct physiologically; any strained position, or one that feels "weird" (as Newman allegedly described it) is putting undue strain on the body. Now, it may "work" from a playing standpoint for some (again "if it works for you...") but since other players have been able to use more natural positions quite well, a strained and/or initially painful position would seem counter-productive in the long run. As Donny also stated (I'm paraphrasing) "use a position that is comfortable and natural".

Each player has to make his own choice, naturally. As for me, having had multiple hand problems, I'll stick with a comfortable position - which also seems to work just fine...for me. If my discussing that and/or stating that the apparent Newman position is unnatural (which according to others he admitted) I'm going to make an assumption a doctor knows more about the workings of and potential damage to the human body than a pedal steel instructor. If some find that insulting to a respected instructor, I fail to see why; unless it's just a case of blind allegiance. I'd think information like this would be welcomed by most players and food for thought. Those players who don't find the position uncomfortable may see/feel no problem, even long-term; but if someone's been struggling with the "right" method for some time and finds it painful and/or awkward, it might be good to know that some people think it's OK...even prefereable...to use a more natural playing position.

It's just too bad that discussions of technique deteriorate due to supporters of certain instructors feeling a need to defend those folks against negative viewpoints of any kind. And if you present logical information and don't back down, the angrier they become. It reminds me of insurance company claim managers, whose first job is to deny all claims, valid or not. Some people's blinders seem to be permanently affixed, and they are unwilling to even consider a dissenting viewpoint to be valid, resorting to personal statements about the poster...which puts one in a position of defending one's self uneccessarily.

I have (IMO) a better idea - if someone doesn't like a negative review or discussion of a published work (that pertained to the subject at hand) , rather than attack the reviewer why not post a positive review, and let the readers decide what holds water? It just might keep a good thread from being hijacked and keep hurt feelings to a minimum.

Bill Moore · Post by **Bill Moore** » 10 Jun 2007 8:22 am

Jim here's an example "of a of a published work (that pertained to the subject at hand" In Scotty's book, Anthology of Pedal Steel Guitar, there are a bunch of pictures of well known steel players. The majority the them, including Paul Franklin, Bobbe Seymour, Sneaky Pete, appear to be using the "contorted hand" technique. The photos showing the right hand technique show it too. Check Winnie's Winston's book, most pictures there also show this style, including the cover picture of Winnie. The edge of the hand contacting the strings, the first knuckle straight up. I know these pictures were taken some years ago, but, I think this shows that most players use or have used this blocking techique. It's BASIC.

As to your doctor's opinion, I guess we need to know how many years he has played the pedal steel guitar.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 10 Jun 2007 9:18 am

As to your doctor's opinion, I guess we need to know how many years he has played the pedal steel guitar.

Hi Bill - really, that's totally irrelevant. Analysis of body function based on a picture and description tell the story. The doctor doesn't have to be a player to know what muscles are being used and at what angle of attack, and I guarantee he's going to know more about the capabilities and working position of hand components than a player/teacher who's not an MD. If they are strained, they are strained - whether playing steel guitar, throwing a slider, typing, etc.

I don't have "Anthology" - but an example of an odd position (IMO) is on page 42 of Scotty's "Method" book. The player appears to have a double-jointed thumb. Even though the pictures are demonstating blocking rather than the thumb or picking fingers, a beginner trying to bend his thumb like that will be frustrated (I have a houseful of guitar players here, and none could duplicate that thumb position).

Page 133 shows what appears to be a more natural position with the fingers stright up and down from the knuckle and the thumb at rest. In Winnie's book on page 9, Lloyd Green's hand does not appear to be in a claw-grip; maybe it's an anomaly, maybe not. Curly Chalker's on page 14 does. But on page 48: "If you naturally find the other position more comfortable, it will happen by itself" (specifically dealing with little finger position and using a "curled" position", followed by "Depending on the position of your hand....). That "depending" is a major point IMO, and implies (supported by other text) that no one position is "right". Winnie's hand on page 76 doesn't even seem as drastically curled as some are saying is "right", and nowhere does he seem to say "do only this".

In video, both Sneaky's hand in the Christine's Tune video (which is VERY loose) and Joe Wright's in his first 4 videos don't seem that drastically curled, and Joe doesn't appear to push that position either - he's telling watchers to use whatever method work for them, including pick curve, with a few exceptions.

From my own experiments and observations, I think the "curled hand" might work very comfortably for a player with medium to small hands, and without the extremely stretched-out thumb. The extended thumb creates a lot of stress on other part of the hand and wrist though - there's no way around that. Extend the thumb in that exaggerated position and fell the tendons in the underside of your wrist, plus the tightness of the wrist itself; it's not a "natural: position. I've found, having very large hands, that curling the fingers up and "poking" the strings back towards the body is nearly impossible to do with any accuracy (and to repeat - this was tried over an extended period of time). OTOH, my 12 year old son can do it, as his hand's smaller.

Yes, the curled front/flat back IS a basic blocking technique - but that does not mean it works for everyone, and it seems (IMO) a bad idea to tell players it's THE method by implying other methods are "wrong". "Basic" does not equal "required". unless you're really close minded (I don't mean you BIll - just a genral descriptive phrase)

And although I personally think the curled position puts uneccessary stress on the hand and may not be physically the most efficient option for some players, it's not "wrong" - especially if it works with no pain.

But the same should be said for a more natural hand position - if it works and doesn't hurt, it's not "wrong" either. And it may be a particularly good choice for players with hand/finger problems that prevent back-palm string contact.

I do not think players shoud be told they HAVE to use some published method that may frustrate the heck out of them just because a group of players insist Mr. Newman is not wrong (somehow contorting that logic to imply that therefore his method is ALWAYS right).

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 10 Jun 2007 7:22 pm

I'm SOOOOOOOO out of this here. Goodluck with your greased pig wrasslin', boys!!

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 11 Jun 2007 7:13 pm

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 11 Jun 2007 8:11 pm

If this thread were about the Dixie Chicks, it would've been closed three days ago...

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 12 Jun 2007 5:40 pm

Duane, I went back and read your last post---oh how I agree!!

Stephen, some how I think you are right!!

Duane Reese · Post by **Duane Reese** » 12 Jun 2007 7:04 pm

If I were either Bobby Lee or Dave Barbaree, this sucker would be closed!

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 13 Jun 2007 5:14 am

Some things never end - this thread was over and pretty much water under the bridge -

SO why did Duane, after dramatically exiting, have to come back and play "last word" : 1) make ANOTHER comment, and 2) delete his posts so no one could see his most interesting takes on the subject?

I'll leave mine up. No reason to delete them...nothing to hide or run away from.

Dave Barbaree · Post by **Dave Barbaree** » 13 Jun 2007 9:34 am

So is the author of a post actually responsible for closing it as well if necessary? If so, didn't realize this as it was my first post. Gotta say, never realized a post on blocking was going to spark so much debate but perhaps that explains why it has been causing me so much frustration. Anyway, for whatever it's worth I do think I'm actually getting a good handle on it now thanks to a lot of your responses that actually talked about it. Thanks a lot everyone, I'm officially signing out of this one.....

- DB

Duane Reese · Post by **Duane Reese** » 13 Jun 2007 9:46 am

Dave, it's your choice if you want to close it or not - you own the thread. The only ones that can close it are you and b0b, the sysop. That's just what I'd have done (and have done before) but really it's no difference to me either way now.

The main thing is that it's good to hear that it's been beneficial for you, and really that's what matters, not what Jim Sliff turned it into.

As for Jim's comments... No comment needed!

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 14 Jun 2007 1:44 pm

Dave, there was indeed a lot of good info in the thread.

I'm sure you are aware I didn't "turn it" into anything. I didn't have to delete my posts to cover-up either.

Some things never change on this forum, unfortunately. Sorry, Dave, that your first thread got shredded by people reacting to some perceived slight of one of their heroes. Most people on the forum don't do that stuff and don't put tin badges on puffed-out chests; others think they have to set..and make...forum rules, and get angry when folks don't toe the line. I find it rather humorous.

So don't let 'em slap blinders on you, look at ALL the options, and have fun. When you see controversy over technique, realize that there's no one way to do anything, and make your own judgement call.

Duane Reese · Post by **Duane Reese** » 14 Jun 2007 10:14 pm

Once again, no comments (or even previous responses) needed! Just read Jim's posts...

and make your own judgement call.

P Gleespen · Post by **P Gleespen** » 15 Jun 2007 5:59 am

I don't see anything wrong with Jim's posts. I mean sheesh, everybody is entitled to an opinion.

I'll tell you one thing though, when you've got two guys going back and deleteing all their posts it makes it really hard to tell whats going on, and it makes those guys look like they're trying to hide something.

Emmett Roch · Post by **Emmett Roch** » 15 Jun 2007 8:08 am

I admire Jeff Newman, and have never found anything in his methods to disagree with.

Having said that, my right hand ring finger has been broken and it has a slight permanent curvature that prevents me from using Jeff's exact right-hand position because the finger bends inward too much.

At the same time, it won't close quite tightly enough to employ Larry Behm's method of folding the ring finger in against the palm and blocking with it.

I've never been able to play with my hand appearing to hold a ping-pong ball, or with my pinky sticking out. My right hand extends naturally with no left or right wrist-turning and lays nearly flat on the strings.

In my first PSG years, I basically stumbled onto a method that's a mixture of pick, palm, and the tips of the ring- and little fingers that works FOR ME.

So, according to some I may be doing it "wrong", yet for some reason I've recorded and spent a lot of time out on the road playing steel.

I try to absorb what's practical FOR ME, and discard what isn't practical FOR ME, from everybody's input, and I recommend that everybody else do the same.

IMHO, what Jim "turned it into" is how to remain a gentleman in the face of unwarranted and irrelevant personal attacks.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 15 Jun 2007 10:07 am

Thanks Patrick and Emmett.

I try to absorb what's practical FOR ME, and discard what isn't practical FOR ME

Well put IMO. The methods suggested were all interesting and obviously there's quite a mix of opinions. No "right" or "wrong" methods though (although I don't think cautioning against painful playing positions is out of line, although it may seem to imply something is "wrong" - it doesn't mean the technique doesn't work; instead that there might be other reasons not to use it - for some people).

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 15 Jun 2007 1:23 pm

Tin Stars on puffed out chest??? Hero worshippers?? Thread shredders??? Patrick and Emmet, If you just have to know, I left the thread, and Duane felt it was right to leave a volatile conversation, because we are not interested in the mud slinging Jim Sliff wants to do. Since you've read half of what went on, and have already decided Jim needs a big pat on the back for a "job well done", you may not even try to see our viewpoint, and I'm sorry for that. Looks like Jim get's his "pile on" afterall.

Now that I've left the thread Jim's taken MY words and "made his own", implying he's trying to convince everyone that it's his idea, calling us hero worshipers and such. We do not like the condecending tone Jim has addressed us (AND some of the fine teachers who have helped this community) within' this thread and other threads. We deleted our post , not because there is anything to hide, as Jim so hastily jumped on to imply, but to leave a fight which is a huge distraction to the topic at hand. I stated over and over again earlier in this thread "Agree to disagree." Duane and I are trying to be peaceable and take our leave. but we will defend ourselves, too. We didn't think it would be neccessary, but maybe we are wrong?? Our post are Jim's fuel---if we leave and take our "fuel", the fight should die out and calm down----unless ya'll want to keep it going---jump right in there. Just like pickin' techniques, it's your choice. This topic started out as palmblocking and look what it's turned into.

So Jim, since you won't let it drop, and since a few of you are curious, everything you mentioned, Emmet, is what I said in the beginning, and Jim asked "how to do the technique", and I volunteered to explain how I done it my self, by way of what I had been taught. Jim did not like what he heard, and the condecending tone started welling up. Jim eventually twisted and fought completely, even with photos and an alledged statement from a "Dr." that knows nothing about a pedal steel, and Jim won't post the alledged "Dr.'s" contact information. Who's got something to hide now??? Jim, are you listening??

You fellas don't know it, and I didn't want to say it, but I'm a little further into hand problems that you or Jim Sliff put together---I've broken my right hand 8 times and it's deformed and I have "detached tendons" and shortened fingers---that's my right hand. My left hand has a different story--I had a chainsaw "kick back" in 1979, and gouged a bunch of bone out of my left wrist, just missing the joint. It did take out my "sideways tendon" and severed the tendons that make my fingers open from a fist to a flat hand. They were surgically reattached. So If I listened to people like Jim, I would be frightened away from attempting to play pedal steel. (We won't go into both my broken legs, and why I shouldn't be able to operate the floor pedals). But Jim, you know what YOU can do or can't do--or are willing to give a legitamate try, if you were really interested in learning. We ALWAYS allowed you that and NEVER challenged your decision to make your choices, as you've implyed. Sorry Jim, I don't buy your pictures. If I can learn to palm block so can you. Emmet found a way that works for him, so can you. All you got to do is be willing to try and put in the time, and you will be able to do it--as I said in the beginning--YOUR STYLE, Jim. I'll say it again, because you ignored it earlier in the thread and went on the rampage, YOUR STYLE. Now what's clearer than that? By the way, I don't know how many fell for the photo deal--clever!! I can ALSO pose my hand like yours and take a few pics and post them, AND present them as evidence why I can't possibly learn to palmblock. But I ain't like you.

Thanx for listening, and please just let it die. Jim, how about buring this one? Or you gonna keep struttin'? I'ts not my place, but I wish b0b would just simply close this thread. You want to argue, keep it in email.

P Gleespen · Post by **P Gleespen** » 15 Jun 2007 1:51 pm

James Morehead wrote:Since you've read half of what went on, and have already decided Jim needs a big pat on the back for a "job well done", you may not even try to see our viewpoint, and I'm sorry for that.

Well, I wouldn't say anybody needs a pat on the back or anything...I'm sure Jim knows that his writing style is blunt and can sometimes come off as a bit offensive...

I'm just saying it's goofy to spend all that time typing about something and then going back and deleteing it.

I'd like to see your viewpoint, but you edited it out of the thread.

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 15 Jun 2007 2:05 pm

Well, that's fair enough, Patrick. And don't get me wrong, Jim and I have been forum buds a long time, helping each other through email, me help him, and Jim helping me over tube amps and such.

I "nutshelled"my viewpoint above. We just do not wish to be involved in this downward spiraling thread, and felt our post were Jim's fuel. If ya have to fight over someting as simple as palmblocking, and several hints saying "whatever works for you" are not enough, then it's time to move on, because it's not worth it.

As you can see, we have gone from "how to palmblock" to "is it right to delete your post to take away the fuel to the fire so the fight goes away". That's what I think is goofy--really goofy. I hate to see such simple topics get twisted into senseless arguments---I'm not wanting to be involved. I'm not wanting to get stomped all over, either. That's why I came back on. Hopefully, this is the end of it. PAALEEAASSE