Changers. Why aren't they adjustable for string length

Bo Legg · Posted 17 May 2007 1:50 pm

This thread may have been addressed before. I've always wondered why other than the cost why the changer on a pedal steel guitar which is also a bridge is not adjustable or preadjusted for string length like most standard guitars. I don't want to hear it don't need it. I've never played mine or anyones steel that no matter how you tune it past the 12th fret a chord sounds like crap no matter how you slant the Bar.

Chris Lucker · From: Los Angeles, California USA

I am not answering your question, but I think it would be more practical to adjust at the nut end rather than the bridge end.

Bo Legg · Posted 17 May 2007 2:14 pm

Chris Thank you for your input. It would be a nice easy fix if it didn't break the laws of physics. Believe me it will not work from that end.

Bill Mayville · From: Las Vegas Nevada * R.I.P.

With all respect I can give,it sounds like you are ready for a Jackson Guitar.

Bill
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Chris Lucker · From: Los Angeles, California USA

I am sorry, I was envisioning one of those old Gibson or Harlin or whatever guitars that had the nut at the right hand side and the changer at the left.

But, I don't think it is such a big issue. Look at Bigsby fretboards, for example. How crazy is that spacing. Some frets actually get farther apart as you go from 8 to 12 or 9 to 12.

Chris

Bo Legg · Posted 17 May 2007 2:26 pm

Thanks Bill. I'm looking for Jacksons on web right now. I'll have to see and hear the adjustable bridge to believe it.

Bo Legg · Posted 17 May 2007 2:30 pm

Chris

Mike Wheeler · From: Delaware, Ohio, USA

That's right. Fret markers on a steel are only relative position markers. Your ear is what tells you when you're on the money.

As far as chords above the 12 fret sounding like crap...IMHO that means the guitar hasn't been tuned correctly to begin with. And if the strings are old, the higher fretted chords will be even worse...but, you probably already know that.

I've not had any problems with chords above the 12th fret sounding like crap. If that were true of all steels, the makers would have addressed the problem by now.
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basilh · From: United Kingdom

A search of previous topics would reveal that it's a "red herring" and totally unnecessary.

Bo Legg · Posted 18 May 2007 6:25 am

I've always been told it was not needed or that I don't know how to tune or my ear or my strings are bad or my steel is not as good as it should be etc.
I adjusted the bridge on my guitar straight up and down like the steel and tuned the guitar up until the open chord sounded perfect and and then moved the bar up to the 15th fret and it sounded like crap. I then tune with the bar at the 15th fret till its perfect and then most of the other positions are off.
I the set intonation by adjusting the bridge and the difference is amazing when you slide the bar up to the 15th fret. I don't believe the physics are different on steel guitar.
Here are some other things that are not needed.
A great paint job, shinny chrome, inlay, metal necks, humbucking picups, packaseat, thumb and finger picks, a volume pedal and for that matter just leave all the pedals and knee levers off and rip the fret board off and just take your steel, one cable and a cheap amp to the gig.

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

There are some inexpensive lap steels built with an adjustable bridge, maybe you should give one of these a try. Very Happy

Alan Brookes · From: Brummy living in Southern California

Unlike handbuilt instruments, where the luthier could miscalculate the positions of the frets, (it rarely happens), most scales on factory-built fingerboards are premade for a set string length. If it's out-of-tune in the higher registers it means that the bridge is in the wrong place. Remember that the sort of compensations for fingering required on a regular guitar are not required on a steel. On a regular guitar you pull the string down against the fret, which increases the tension of the string. This has to be compensated for at the bridge, and is why the bridge is usually slightly at an angle, giving a greater string length to the bass strings, where the pulldown on the larger gauge strings is different from the treble strings. If you imagine the guitar like a big clothes line, when you pull the strings down you're creating a triangle between the original position of the strings and the new position. The angles of the triangle will vary as you move your fingers up and down the fingerboard. What this means is that the compensation for pull-down is different with every fret. Imagine putting a capo on the first fret. You now have a different string length, and the compensation is different from the original string length.

I hope all this is not too confusing. At our bimonthly meetings of the Northern California Association of Luthiers this is a subject that often comes up, and different luthiers swear by different formulae for compensation, and they can all support their calculation with logic.

On a steel guitar all that is irrelevant. Just measure the distance from the nut to the 12th fret, and that should be half the distance from the nut to the bridge. Likewise, the distance from the bridge to the 24th fret is half the distance from the bridge to the 12th fret. Basically, if you take the distance from the nut to the 12th fret, by marking it off against a stick, then use that stick from the 12th fret, you can see exactly where the bridge should be.

Roger Francis · From: kokomo,Indiana, USA

Stuart, are you suggesting giving up steel guitar and becomeing a lead player? Sad

Bo Legg · Posted 18 May 2007 7:33 am

[quote]Stuart, are you suggesting giving up steel guitar and becomeing a lead player?

Maybe I should. I think my ear is to good to be a steel player.

Mike Wheeler · From: Delaware, Ohio, USA

Stuart, I think I understand exactly what you are talking about. On a 6 string electric, a Les Paul, for instance, each string usually has an adjustable bridge piece that can adjust the string length so that the harmonic on the 12th fret matches the fretted note at the 12th fret. If this is done with new strings, the guitar usually plays accurately above the 12th fret...or that's the goal, at least.

The difference with a steel guitar is that, because it's played with a bar using the fret markers only as position references, the intonation at any given fret position is only "close", and how close it is to correct pitch depends on the ear of the player.

If you look at the bridge pieces on that 6 string, once the intonation is set, the difference between them is pretty small. The bar position on a steel easily falls within that difference...especially if one uses a little vibrato. An accomplished steel player with a good ear will be able to hear where the exact bar position should be (within a fraction of a second) and compensate with the bar position to achieve the correct intonation to match the band's overall reference.

Intonation on a steel can be very difficult to learn because of the lack of an exact position, or fret. Add to that the problems associated with the initial tuning of the instrument to achieve as many in-tune chord inversions as possible, and you have some great challenges to overcome. Playing steel guitar is difficult at best, but the intonation issues to which you refer, though they do exist, are very small, to insignificant, when considering the details of how the instrument is actually used.

As far as the intonation between the notes of a chord...if you are trying to achieve Just Intonation at the open position, and compare it to the 12th fret position, yes, you will hear some discordance. But very few players try to achieve a truely JI tuning because, with all the pedals and knee levers, it's simply impossible to do. Some form of tweaking the tuning is necessary to arrive at an acceptable compromise allowing all the chordal combinations to sound "good" when played in a band context. Because of this, striving for individual string intonation is unnecessary and impractical.
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Mike

Mike Wheeler · From: Delaware, Ohio, USA

Another thought...

Being a 6 stringer, you get used to the tuning of chords sounding a certain way. When switching over to steel, those chordal sounds are a little different. One has to develop a little different "ear" for the steel guitar tuning...due to the things explained above.

I used to try to tune my steel to JI. But I found, over the years, that I sounded out of tune if I used more than a couple pedals. I've now readjusted my ear to hear a tweaked JI/ET variation that allows for all the pedals and knees to sound in tune. No, it's not perfect, but it sounds correct in a band context.
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Mike

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Wouldn't another consideration be the pressure applied to the bar pushing down on the strings? If one has a very "heavy" left hand, the string deflection could be more than enough to put one out of tune. And it's easiest to deflect the strings in the area of the 12th fret. Just a thought,,,,,,,,

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

I'm another long-time 6-stringer recently converted to steel, and it's a fact that there is no reason to have an adjustable bridge (meaning - adustable intonation for each string) on a steel guitar.

As stated earlier, the only reason for intonation adjustments on fretted instruments (where the frets are used as string contact points) is due to the stretching action caused by finger pressure. Intonation adjustments will vary depending on scale length, string stiffness, finger pressure, action height, etc (total string length being the one irrelevant factor some seem to think matters) - then there's the "backwards compensation" of the Buzz Feiten system, much hyped but with such microscopic effect on tuning as to be, in many techs' opinions, more "smoke and mirrors" than anything else. Players seem to hear the Feiten effect because they want to - I've yet to find a player who can recognize audible differences between "normal" compensation and the Feiten system.

Guitarists often *think* a pedal steel needs adjustable intonation, but if you read up on the physics it's just not required. The tuning of a steel DOES sound different, and takes getting used to...no matter which method you use. But without a finger pressing s string to a fret, there's nothing to compensate for.
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Stu Schulman · From: Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)

Microfrets Guitars?I used to be a Stuart..Now I'm just Stu!
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Steeltronics Z-pickup,Desert Rose S-10 4+5,Desert Rose Keyless S-10 3+5... Mullen G2 S-10 3+5,Telonics 206 pickups,Telonics volume pedal.,Blanton SD -10,Emmons GS_10...Zirctone bar,Bill Groner Bar...any amp that isn't broken.Steel Seat.Com seats...Licking paint chips off of Chinese Toys since 1952.

Nathan Delacretaz · From: Austin, Texas, USA

Maybe someday we'll get to the steel equivalent of variable scale guitars like Novax...? ha...eh...gotta go...just got a headache...

Alan Brookes · From: Brummy living in Southern California

I know Ralph Novak quite well. He was given an award for fanned frets and he has a patent on it. I object strongly to his patent. Fanned frets have been used on string instruments on and off since the middle ages. Patenting fanned frets is like patenting the soundhole ! That having been said, he makes some great guitars which are very well thought of my those who play them.

Here is a 7-course (14-string) Bell Cittern which I built about 3 yrs. ago. It has the traditional fanned frets.

Alan Brookes · From: Brummy living in Southern California

Alan Brookes · From: Brummy living in Southern California

David Doggett · Posted 18 May 2007 11:26 am

Stuart does have a point. There are two issues being addressed in different posts above. The idea that the fret markers above the 12th fret are slightly off and throw off the bar position is not the real issue if the fret board is designed and placed properly. But even with that, the different thicknesses of the strings can throw off the intonation up the neck for the same reason it does on a regular guitar. Bar pressure stretches the strings, even if they are not pressed all the way to the frets. Strings of different core thickness stretch to different degrees. Perfect intonation at the nut will not be perfect up the neck. The stretching is much less and the problem much less on steel, and that is probably the reason it has rarely been addressed by manufacturers. But this slight problem cannot be "fixed" with a straight bar, no matter how good your ear is. It is not a matter of merely slanting the bar. The best intonation on regular guitar is achieved by staggering the bridge, not by merely slanting it.

My simple workaround is to set the basic tuning at the nut (with a meter or my ear), but then to put the bar toward the middle of my playing area to adjust fine tuning by ear. I use the 8th fret. As you move down to the nut or up to the 16th fret, the intonation changes slightly, but is acceptable. And in the middle of my playing area the intonation is noticeably better than if I tune perfectly at the nut.

Bo Legg · Posted 18 May 2007 11:40 am

Oh you guys. Steel players are wonderful people.
My staggered changer question was just a FACADE of ENTHUSIASM. I wouldn't change one thing on my PSG. It's like a beautiful women. I'll drive hundreds of miles to be with her and write hot checks to keep her. I love every rod rattle, rusty pedal, broken string wrapped around my finger and most of all the no chords above the 12th fret minute of it.

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