Pick-up Location

Charlie Campney · Post by **Charlie Campney** » 30 Jul 2006 5:27 pm

I am building my first lap steel and am a little confused about where to locate the pick-up (single coil). The scale length is 22.5". Is there a formula to determine the best location? Or should I just wing it?

Thanks

Ron Whitfield · Post by **Ron Whitfield** » 30 Jul 2006 7:25 pm

I'm in the midst of a similar quandry, but the Rick bakelites have the PU very close to the bridge and it's hard to argue against that, however, you'll surely get a 'bigger' sound a bit further away. I don't have that luxury, as the builder of my project steel (a cool '40s Alcatraz prison made 8 string) made the cavity very close to the correct bridge placement per the short scale.
Good luck!

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 30 Jul 2006 11:23 pm

As near the bridge as you can. The reason is long and unnecessary, just follow the 'Industry standard'..
Fender, Gibson, Rickenbacker, et al.

you'll surely get a 'bigger' sound a bit further away

agreed Ron, but the down side is the perceived shorter sustain, anyway there are usually knobs on the amp. to help with the warmth etc. Plus, a LOT of the tone thing is in the hands. (IMHO most of it)

Anywhere other than at the bridge is done purely for looks and will NOT give you as long a "PERCEIVED" sustain..

The ratio between the 'Transient' and the tail of the note, IDEALLY, should not be too great, this is achieved by keeping the string's excursion in the magnetic field to as little as possible whilst still exciting the pick-up.
Basil[This message was edited by basilh on 31 July 2006 at 12:26 AM.]

Roman Sonnleitner · Post by **Roman Sonnleitner** » 1 Aug 2006 12:15 pm

Charlie,

pickup position depends a lot on what sound you are looking for - I disagree with Basil (we've had this discussion before) that the pickup should be as close to the bridge as possible - this may give you more sustain, but it will also give you a very thin, trebly sound (which may be OK for Hawaiian and country styles, but won't work well with overdriven sounds for blues and rock - think Ben Harper, Greg Leisz, et al.).

I placed the pickup on my homemade lap steel (this one: http://www.steelguitarforum.com/Forum2/HTML/008383.html ) a bit farther away from the bridge, and came to the placement by pure experimentation - I placed the pickup on the half-finished instrument on shims, with the pole-pieces pointing down towards the strings, and then moved it back and forth until I found the 'perfect' space for the sound I was looking for (full and fat).

Incidentally, I like the sound of my homemade steel much better than that of my Melobar Rattler (which has the pickup as close to the bridge as possible); oh, and I don't notice any differences in sutain between those (admittedly very different - from wood type to pickups to construction) models, either.

Also note that already in the '50s Fender used two pickups with a blend pot to give the player some control over sound by allowing virtually moving the (effective) pickup position back and forth! I guess that's the same reason why many modern lap steels builders (like Lapking - www.lapking.com ) use twin pickups!

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 3 Aug 2006 12:22 am

I disagree with Basil

And in doing so you've also dismissed the design protocols of most of the major guitar companies in one fell swoop. The generally accepted position is close to the bridge. I don't see where you're coming from Roman, Gibson Rickenbacher and nearly all of the top manufacturers have the best research technicians availble, if you know better than them, how come you don't design for some major company or at the least work for one ?

Roman, you're wrong about the function of the blend pot, it's to vary the amount of the 'Humbucking" effect. The Stringmaster does NOT have two pick-ups per neck it's a TWIN COIL pick-up with the coils mounted separately.
The Stringmaster was described as a twin pick-up per neck guitar in Fender's brochures simply put in 'Layman's' terms. (Fender knew well that it was REALLY a 'Humbucker' albiet in disguise.
FWIW
[This message was edited by basilh on 03 August 2006 at 01:39 AM.][This message was edited by basilh on 03 August 2006 at 01:44 AM.]

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 3 Aug 2006 12:42 am

Oh , I've just had another thought Roman, if what you imply about the 'Twin' Pick-ups on the fender is correct, then tell me why the sound is FATTER when just the Bridge coil is activated and thinner when the 'Neck' one is "Dialed In" ?

Roman Sonnleitner · Post by **Roman Sonnleitner** » 3 Aug 2006 1:00 am

Basil,
on any twin pickup guitar with single coils, if the pickups are reverse wound/reverse polarity, they will act as a humbucker - many modern pickup manufacturers (like Seymour Duncan, Fralin, DiMarzio, etc.) offer RWRP pickup sets as standard for this reason; these can be wired in parallel or in series (like on Danelectro guitars or with the Fender 4-way switch), the latter being similar to a traditional HB setup (or the Stringmaster set-up you are describing - were of course each coil works as a seperate pickup entity, no matter whether you christen it twin-pickup, humbucking twin-coil, or whatever; BTW, why would Fender have wanted to make the humbucking effect blendable? Nobody likes to dial in extra hum, makes much more sense to change the tone...)

Of course changin between those two coils (no matter whether with a switch or with a blend pot, like on a Stringmaster) will also change the sound - since two coils will pick up different sounds in different places on the string.
Now, a SINGLE coil placed closer tho the neck will, of course, sound fatter, warmer, fuller than one placed closer to the bridge; if you compare the sound of TWO pickups working at the same time (esp. in parallel mode), they will have a slightly mid-scooped sound (think 'Strat-quack') - making it sound thinner, since certain frequencies will cancel each other out (that's why some makers also offer a switch to combine both pickups in series to give a fatter sound - the Fender 4-way switch - which I have on my Tele - does this).

As for your references to Fender, Gibson (though I would not include that brand here - their pickups were placed quite a bit farther towards the neck on some models), Rickenbacker - sure, those were great guitars (unfortunately not in production any longer), probably some of the best, for a classic lap steel sound (and many modern ones) - but time does not stand still, and music and sound requirements change - that's why many modern companies and luthiers (Asher, Remington, Lapking, Chandler, GeorgeBoards come to mind immediately, though there are more) offer twin pickup lap steels, or don't place the pickup as close to the bridge as possible, to provide the sounds needed by more rock/blues oriented players like Ben Harper - too much treble (like a pickup placed as close to the bridge as physically possible will produce) will not work well with certain types of overdriven sounds (will sound too harsh and fizzy), and that can NOT be dialled out on the amp![This message was edited by Roman Sonnleitner on 03 August 2006 at 02:08 AM.][This message was edited by Roman Sonnleitner on 03 August 2006 at 02:18 AM.][This message was edited by Roman Sonnleitner on 03 August 2006 at 02:27 AM.]

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 3 Aug 2006 3:37 am

Charlie, are you using the 22 1/2" scale on a guitar intended for Rock/Blues, or for more general uses i.e. country- Hawaiian-swing etc. ?

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 3 Aug 2006 3:52 am

Roman, you say

BTW, why would Fender have wanted to make the humbucking effect blendable? Nobody likes to dial in extra hum, makes much more sense to change the tone...)

The answer is that with just the bridge pick-up selected (The NORMAL playing tone) via the 'Blend' knob, under circumstances of induced hum from stage lights etc. you could dial in the required amount of hum CANCELLATION without affecting the tone too adversely.
As for Gibson mounting pick-ups far from the bridge, PLEASE name the models as to enlighten me.
The comparison of the modern luthiers is irrelevant, the only relevance is to MAYBE getting a different sound from the Lap Steel guitar other than that that has been the signature sound for over 70 years and accepted by the vox populi as being distinctive.
Look to educate the public and invariably it is they who will educate you.
These luthiers you quote as yardstick for pick-up placement are catering JUST for a specific niche market player and catering to aesthetics rather than traditional sounds and designs, groundbreaking maybe, but definitive, I don't think so.
[This message was edited by basilh on 03 August 2006 at 04:53 AM.]

Ron ! · Post by **Ron !** » 3 Aug 2006 5:35 am

I have a Hofner lapsteel here and that pick-up is almost 2 inch away from the bridge.I has the best tone I ever heard.But I have to give Basil some credit here.Most builders do place their Pick-ups as close to the bridge as possible.
Take a look at two different type of guitars and different style's of pick-up placement.
Number 1
Number 2[This message was edited by Ron ! on 03 August 2006 at 06:41 AM.]

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 3 Aug 2006 6:24 am

I'll take (2) of #2!

------------------
“Big John”
a.k.a. {Keoni Nui}
Current Equipment

Roman Sonnleitner · Post by **Roman Sonnleitner** » 3 Aug 2006 6:42 am

>The answer is that with just the bridge >pick-up selected (The NORMAL playing tone) >via the 'Blend' knob, under circumstances of >induced hum from stage lights etc. you could >dial in the required amount of hum >CANCELLATION without affecting the tone too >adversely.

So, did you get that info from Leo Fender personally? I have here in front of me Richard R Smith's book on the history of Fender guitars, that shows an ad from 1953 for the 4-neck Stringmaster,mentioning " New system of tone control - Newly designed pickups - Two pickups on each neck - New big sound"

>As for Gibson mounting pick-ups far from the >bridge, PLEASE name the models as to >enlighten me.

Not 'far from the bridge' - I did not say, that, I said "quite a bit farther towards the neck on some models" (not as close as physically possible):
EH-185, BR-3, Century 6, Skylark, for example.

>The comparison of the modern luthiers is >irrelevant,

Please do tell these luthiers that they are doing everything the wrong way, I guess they will be thankful about the increased business!

>the only relevance is to MAYBE getting a >different sound from the Lap Steel guitar >other than that that has been the signature >sound for over 70 years and accepted by the >vox populi as being distinctive.
>Look to educate the public and invariably it >is they who will educate you.

There is NO signature sound of lap steel, a Rickenbacker sounds different than a Stringmaster or a Bigsby, and quite different than a Gibson or a National New Yorker (which also has the pickup a bit farther down the neck). Speedy West had quite a different (fuller, jazzier) tone than Don Helms' trebley, high sound on Hank WIlliams' song, and those were quite distinct from the lush tone on Hawaiian records from the '30s and '40s.

>These luthiers you quote as yardstick for >pick-up placement are catering JUST for a >specific niche market player and catering to >aesthetics rather than traditional sounds >and designs, groundbreaking maybe, but >definitive, I don't think so.

Please don't forget that what you call 'niche market' makes up the majority of lap steel players these days!
After all, Hawaiian music has been a 'niche market' itself since about the end of WWII, with the advent of the pedal steel, the lap steel fell largely out of favor in the country music scene during the 1960s, and with the exception of a few rock musicians (Dave Gilmour, Jerry Garcia, Ry Cooder) in the 1970s, it was only those 'niche market' musicians like Ben Harper, Greg Leisz, David Lindley, and the 'Sacred Steelers' that brought about a renaissance of lap steel music in the last 10 or 15 years - all going for a more rock/blues-oriented sound![This message was edited by Roman Sonnleitner on 03 August 2006 at 07:52 AM.]

Roman Sonnleitner · Post by **Roman Sonnleitner** » 3 Aug 2006 6:47 am

Oh, and BTW, I'm not talking about 'yardsticks' of sounds or 'definitive' sounds, I'm just stating that there is not only one definite sound set in stone, but a variety of sounds, possibilities and tastes, and that it is better to experiment and find out what one individually prefers (which is quite easily done) instead of just blindly following so-called 'tradition'...

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 3 Aug 2006 8:31 am

Roman, I really think you should read back through my answers before blindly debunking my opinions.
Why did you say

o, did you get that info from Leo Fender personally? I have here in front of me Richard R Smith's book on the history of Fender guitars, that shows an ad from 1953 for the 4-neck Stringmaster,mentioning " New system of tone control - Newly designed pickups - Two pickups on each neck - New big sound"

?

I had aready said :-

The Stringmaster was described as a twin pick-up per neck guitar in Fender's brochures simply put in 'Layman's' terms. (Fender knew well that it was REALLY a 'Humbucker' albiet in disguise.

I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree., and I do most vehemently disagree with your statement about Gibson et al re placement.
we should cease this disagreement and try to help the questioner Charlie Campney with his request.
Based on our years of experience we SHOULD be able to advise him on two routes to try, I can back up my statements with 55 years of PROFESSIONAL playing and I'm sure you can also contribute similarly.

For Hawaiian style etc. that Charlie intends to play =
1 vote for the nearest to the bridge as possible, based on the transient-sustain ratio (Which seems to have eluded some)
[This message was edited by basilh on 03 August 2006 at 09:39 AM.]

Roman Sonnleitner · Post by **Roman Sonnleitner** » 3 Aug 2006 8:55 am

I can agree with you on that!

1 vote for experimenting with different positions (by soldering a jack to the pickup, and laying it on shims with polepieces facing provisionally mounted strings) before deciding on where to route the pickup cavity - might be as close to the bridge as possible, might be a bit farther towards the neck for added mid-range (for rock/blues sounds).

Charlie Campney · Post by **Charlie Campney** » 3 Aug 2006 11:40 pm

Well guys, I didn't mean to stir up such a controversy.

This is my first atttempt at building such a project and the plans are from a book, hence the 22.5" scale length. I am a woodworker and am not worried about that end of it. The written description in the book was a little vague and I wanted some further advice on where to place the pick-up. I didn't realize there was that much flexibility in the location and I didn't want to mess it up.

I play dobro a little and wanted to try something a different. I will probably go the Hawaiian route as that is what my parents played back in the 30's and I have some of Dad's music and instructional material. The parts just got here today from Stew-Mac I am looking forward to getting it done.

One more question if you would. What strings should I get? Will any old strings do or should I be looking for some specific gauges?

Thanks for your comments ! !

Roman Sonnleitner · Post by **Roman Sonnleitner** » 4 Aug 2006 1:10 am

Charlie,
string gauge depends on what tuning you are going to use. Some string manufacturers offer sets of strings specifically made for certain lap steel tunings, look into the shop part of this page and you will find some!

John Bushouse · Post by **John Bushouse** » 4 Aug 2006 4:44 am

My 1936 National Electric Hawaiian has 3 sets of pickups - bridge, neck and middle treble side, and neck and middle bass side. Each set is independent - I could dial in treble-side only if I wanted (not sure why I would want that, though). I find that some combination of the three sets gives me the tone I want - treble "bite" from the bridge, warmth from the other two sets.

The guitar doesn't have any tone knobs - only master volume and volume for each pickup set. If I was going to build (or buy) a new guitar, I'd prefer to have two pickups and no tone knobs to a single pickup lodged at the bridge. But I'd definitely want one at the bridge.

By the way, Basil, the volume pot for the bridge pickup is the one labeled "Natural Haw" - even in 1936 they knew you needed that bridge pickup for a natural Hawaiian tone...

George Piburn · Post by **George Piburn** » 4 Aug 2006 5:03 am

edited

Rick Collins · Post by **Rick Collins** » 4 Aug 2006 7:29 am

Most pickups are adjustable vertically (height to strings). It would seem, that to incorporate a lateral adustment also, would not be too difficult.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 4 Aug 2006 8:46 am

Put two pickups on, then you can blend them to get whatever tone you want. You rarely see a regular electric guitar with only one pickup nowadays. Why should the steel guitar make do with only one ?

Steve Pierce · Post by **Steve Pierce** » 4 Aug 2006 10:21 am

I know a lot of times neck pick-ups are placed right under where the 24th fret would be. It lead me to believe that pick-up placement had more to do with harmionc sweet spots.

Is this ture for bridge pick-ups?

------------------
Steve Pierce

Roman Sonnleitner · Post by **Roman Sonnleitner** » 4 Aug 2006 1:12 pm

Yes, with quite a few guitars pickups are placed under harmonic nodes - but think about it: this will only work with open strings, once you fret (or bar, with a steel guitar) another note, the pickup won't be under that node any longer...

Greg Pettit · Post by **Greg Pettit** » 5 Aug 2006 10:04 pm

Not a great idea to chime in on what is clearly an ongoing debate between two regulars, both of whom I have respect for.

However, my research and experiences (I'm quite positive far less than the two contestants here) quite heavily lean in favour of many of Roman's statements.

Never have twin coils + blend pot on any guitar been used exclusively to determine the amount of hum that is bucked. It's is always tone first, hum second. Rather than, "Dial out as much hum as you can without sacrificing tone," it is "Dial in the tone you want, and sorry about any hum that may arise if both aren't equal."

A Fender strat originally came with 3 single coils with the middle one NOT reverse wound, because it was well known that coils in different positions produce different tones. Only after some time and the advent of the "humbucker" did it occur to Fender or one of his engineers (I dunno who, exactly) that reverse-winding the middle pickup could have hum-cancelling benefits as well.

I also disagree that closest to the bridge is best. I think Basil actually agrees, too, since what he's actually saying is, "closest to the bridge is universally considered the best for Hawaiian music." At the end of the day, the "right" tone is best, period.

My self-built steel has the pickup (a humbucker no less) a few inches away from the bridge.

--

And most importantly, IMO, is that with the pickup a bit away from the bridge you are able to pick up more of the note's fundamentals and less of its harmonics. Perhaps this doesn't give the same "shimmer", but it's more of a basis for further EQ which could ultimately result in that high glassy sound. The reverse is not necessarily true, since by the time you attenuate the treble in a signal that is already primarily treble, you are left with a pretty poor signal.

Apologies in advance if words from a relative newcomer (to both this forum and lap steel in general) are too out of place or unwelcome.

Greg