Bad sound to the player, great to others

JAMES BANKS · Post by **JAMES BANKS** » 30 Apr 2007 11:58 am

Just wondering about something. Last night I played at church at one of those special talent night type things. From the stage, my steel sounded much too trebley. I was using a Vegas 400 with the bass up all the way and the midrange and highs pulled down. To me, I sounded awful. However, my wife who has attended many steel shows and knows when a steel sounds good or bad said it really sounded good from the audience. Several others commented on how much it added. From my point, I was tempted to quit. Is this a situation others have or am I just beating up on myself? (I have played in the same place using the Nashville 112 with a better sound to me)

James

admin · Post by **b0b** » 30 Apr 2007 12:18 pm

You have to sound too bright on stage if you want a good tone to reach the audience. Otherwise, the steel often gets lost in the mix.

JAMES BANKS · Post by **JAMES BANKS** » 30 Apr 2007 12:25 pm

Thanks Bob, at least I feel better about that. Those high notes seemed a bit too high.
James

Mike Winter · Post by **Mike Winter** » 30 Apr 2007 12:31 pm

Unless you see people running to the back wall with blood-stained fingers in their ears, you're probably fine.

JAMES BANKS · Post by **JAMES BANKS** » 30 Apr 2007 12:43 pm

Thanks Mike, I haven't seen that YET!. Hopefully I won't. All the songs I played on were country or southern gospel. I tried to play good fills and my wife even said I did so good, Jeff Newman ( I was a top gun student) would be proud. (Except for a really fast turnaround I blew) That's another story.LOL
James

Marc Jenkins · Post by **Marc Jenkins** » 30 Apr 2007 12:59 pm

I've had good results in situations where the amp is miced and tilting the amp up towards me on the floor on a stand. If you aim the speaker a touch below your head, you should hear yourself well but not kill your ears with high end slices.

JAMES BANKS · Post by **JAMES BANKS** » 30 Apr 2007 1:07 pm

Marc, that may be part of the problem, the amp was miked, but it was tilted back and the center of the speaker was much in line with my ear. Next time I will try setting it down on the floor or with less tilt. I practice with my band every week, but we practice in a much smaller building and each guitarist and the bass have their own amp. At church, everybody goes direct and they rely on their monitor speaker/aviom setup. I get an amp.
James

Joe Drivdahl · Post by **Joe Drivdahl** » 30 Apr 2007 1:08 pm

These other guys have probably been doing this for years, but I finally broke down and ordered a couple amp stands from Musicians Friend for $20 each. Man did that make a difference. No more looking for piano benches or chairs to put my amps on. No more leaning the amp back against the wall hoping it doesn't slip or fall forward. For me they are well worth the money.

Joe

JAMES BANKS · Post by **JAMES BANKS** » 30 Apr 2007 1:28 pm

Joe, I have one of those at my shop that is not being used. Good idea. James

Michael Douchette · Post by **Michael Douchette** » 30 Apr 2007 2:00 pm

I have found it just the opposite. The tone is best (for me and the audience) when the amp is on the floor flat, and it sounds to me like it's just a bit muddy, where I think it needs just a bit more highs. If it sounds trebly to me, believe me, it's shearing their hair off. When the speaker is NOT pointed directly at you, the treble waves are zooming past while the larger bass waves are still reaching you. (Remember those gigs where that dang bass player was just so loud to you... and he was clear across the stage? That's why.) If you compensate by adding treble to where it sounds good to you... ouch.

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 30 Apr 2007 3:14 pm

Bobby Lee said it right. I think the best position for your amp is tilted back aimed directly at you. Highs are the first thing to go in a crowded room. What sounds very trebly on stage most often sounds rich and full out front because of people and the room soaking up highs. I find if I put the amp on the floor I cannot hear as well and also cannot judge the tone coming out of the amp because the speaker is so directional. I always err on the side of treble. I also find that excessive reverb can muddy sound. I favor delay these days over reverb.

Fred Thompson · Post by **Fred Thompson** » 30 Apr 2007 3:20 pm

I'm with you, Mike. I get a much fuller sound with my amp sitting on the floor. I have a Steel King and just remove the rear casters to give it a little tilt. Works for me.

Ken Williams · Post by **Ken Williams** » 30 Apr 2007 5:13 pm

Mike, I elevate my amp off the floor but I understand where you're coming from. If I set my highs where it sounds right, it's too bright out front. I might add that the same thing seems to work in respect to volume. I've always had a tendency to not play loud enough, they tell me. My wife, a singer with a pretty good ear, has told me several times that I don't have this problem when my amp is on the floor. Sounds the same to me volume wise, but she remarks that I play louder or somehow it comes through louder when it's on the floor. Sometimes, especially on outdoor gigs, I'll put my amp on my case. This may be a good compromise since it's 6 to 8 inches off the floor, but not at seat level.

When my amp is at seat level, like bOb, I usually run a bit more highs that what sounds ideal on stage.

Ken

JAMES BANKS · Post by **JAMES BANKS** » 30 Apr 2007 11:49 pm

I like the input guys. I am going to experiment a bit. First, I am going to set the amp flat on the floor, no tilt and try it out. Then I will try the stand. I guess as long as the SM57 in front of the speaker gets the sound to the board and it sounds good to the listener, that is most important. I just wish I could get it to sound right to me. I have always been my most critical critic. I have never played guitar as good as I thought it should be and I have never liked the way I sing either. It should be no surprise that I beat up my steel sound either. Thanks for the ideas. I like having all the steel players on here to talk with. At least we all experience the same things to some level, we understand each other.
James

Michael Douchette · Post by **Michael Douchette** » 1 May 2007 3:24 am

JAMES BANKS wrote:I guess as long as the SM57 in front of the speaker gets the sound to the board and it sounds good to the listener, that is most important.

James... "nail on the head," as they say. If it could be perfect for us all, it would be ideal... but those folks are the ones that will ultimately determine if we get to come back or not; I personally like keeping them happy.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 1 May 2007 3:53 am

Count on what your wife says? Onstage and in-audience sound can be drastically different depending on the room and elevation of the stage* and a host of other things. A guitarist or keyboardist can usually find somebody who can play a few chords while they run out into the room themselves to see what it sounds like, but as a steel player you're either stuck with the soundman (who hates steel guitars & has a vicious hangover) or if you're lucky, your wife. You're lucky. Some people even resort to trying to tape the sound in the room during soundchecks, but by the time you get it right the show's over.

*(If you've ever played on an elevated plywood stage with an open front, the sound that comes tunneling out from under the stage can bowl the audience right over - it's like an auto-reverb-booster for the bass player & bass drum.)

JAMES BANKS · Post by **JAMES BANKS** » 1 May 2007 5:39 am

Mike, thanks for your input. I guess all steel players are always grasping for the perfect sound to us and the listener. Seems we are more concerned about it than other musicians. Is it a curse or a blessing?

David, I am really blessed. My wife is a darn good sound person. Sometimes she keeps me down in the mix (Sometimes too low) because she doen't want to force my instrument, steel or 6 string on the audience. The guy that runs sound for the church(no hang over problem there) is pretty good and fortunately for me, his Dad was a steel player and he can't get enough steel. Talk about counting your blessings, man I got it made if I could sound the way I want to to my ears, I would have it made. Thanks for your input
James

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 1 May 2007 6:44 am

The one constant I find is that the closer my amp is to me, the quieter I sound to the audience. I prefer to be as close to the front of the stage as possible, with my speaker(s) in the back line, elevated (usually on a chair) to help the sound clear all the stage objects. That way I am closer to hearing what others on stage hear and what the audience hears. It helps me balance myself in the mix better. And if I am balanced in the stage mix, the sound man has less to screw up. I use an amp head with separate speaker cabs, so I can have the amp next to me for tweaking. The worst thing is to have my speaker close to me and tilted or angled to point at my head. Then I hear myself fine, but I'm low in the stage mix; and, if I'm miked, I'm completely at the mercy of the sound guy, who usually seems to just leave me low in the mix.

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 1 May 2007 5:50 pm

i struggle with this nightly...also use girlfriend for mix advice.......i betcha if i ever had an inspiring stage sound i could actually play pretty well, and i'm hoping for that before i die!!

Simon Stephenson · Post by **Simon Stephenson** » 1 May 2007 11:42 pm

If you're being mic'ed up then you need to set your sound with your head right in front of the amp - after all, that's where the mic will be. The sound man will then be able to make any adjustments necessary. He won't be able to produce a nice steel tone out of nothing so it is really important you feed him a good quality signal to start with.

I normally put my amp on a beer crate, elevating it about a foot off the ground. I find that this gives the correct on stage sound for me, and I can then ask the sound man for more steel in my monitor mix if I need it.

By the way, usually the drummer asks for LOTS of steel in his monitor mix but the guitarist wants it backed off a bit.

By the way, if you doubt your on-stage sound you can always ask for a soundboard recording and listen to it later.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 2 May 2007 2:17 am

A soundboard recording won't give you an accurate picture - some of what's going into the house is the volume from your amp. The sound-man will alter your level to take account of this, but the ambient amp sound won't be apparent from a DI mix.

RR

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 2 May 2007 5:51 am

Mics are not generally put dead center in front of an amp speaker. Experienced sound men put them off center, for exactly the same reason you don't want the speaker pointed directly at your head. Metal dust caps especially have a narrow piercing beam of highs directly out the center. Some people put a small patch of tape on the grill cloth over the center of the speaker. And there are devices you can buy to disperse that ice pick beam, so that some audience member in the front row doesn't get it.

admin · Post by **b0b** » 2 May 2007 7:11 am

I love that "ice pick beam" sound, but what's a "beer crate"? All of these technical terms!

Seriously, It's really hard to know what the audience is hearing. It's always different from what you hear on stage.

Terry Wood · Post by **Terry Wood** » 2 May 2007 12:58 pm

I am in agreement with b0b. It usually sounds like to many highs but to cut through to the audience, and remember the people soak up sound in a room too.

However, I have played a few times when I know it was awful and everybody said, "Man, you were great and I wish that I could play that thang like you do, I'd never do nothing else." Yeah right!

I would say please yourself and hang in there like a pit bull.

Terry Wood

JAMES BANKS · Post by **JAMES BANKS** » 3 May 2007 5:28 am

Thanks for the continuing input. Hey bOb, I have been sound tech at church for a long time. I like those "Technical" terms, like add more "sparkle", "add some depth", "turn down the brightness", or the catch all,"I don't know what I want, but that does not sound right". Being a sound man can be funny sometime.
James