Why buy unseen?

Alan Miller · Post by **Alan Miller** » 27 Apr 2007 3:14 pm

IAN, its about 950 miles from lands end in cornwall England, to John'o groats in scotland, the cycling record for this distance is 1 day 23 hours ( they call it the "END TO END ")....you should be able to manage it in well under a day in your Porche , can I borrow your porche for a day to see if its possible ?
My point is a very fit steel player could easily ride a bicycle the full length of England / Scotland to purchase a steel guitar within 2 days. Should this be in the humour section ?

Brad Malone · Post by **Brad Malone** » 27 Apr 2007 3:16 pm

Ken, Another downside about buying used is the shipping problem. Most new Steels are professionally packed for safe shipping because they have special designed boxes for that purpose. If you buy used and the Steel is damaged in shipping it can be a hassle to collect..only MHO.

Randy Gilliam · Post by **Randy Gilliam** » 27 Apr 2007 3:55 pm

When I sell on the forum I like to give the buyer a money back guarantee . that usually Eases There Mind . Some People wouldnt Give 20.00 For a 50.00 Bill Cause They are scared of their shadow. Me I am not afraid To get or give someone a good deal. Just My input on the forum. Randy.

Tommy Young · Post by **Tommy Young** » 27 Apr 2007 4:32 pm

there is good and bad everywhere but the forum has been for me and my small business and i do work on pedal steels if your looking here in miss. and i do thes modifications here and lots of plp here have had my work and i have a great deal of respect for the forum for the most part but some after they get a guitar don't like this or that and thats where i and many others come into play and our reputation stands for itself here because these guy's will gouge u to death if someone is done wrong and that is a great + i buy off here and sell off here and work from here some and my reputation is all i got to go buy and these guy's know how i am and what my work stands for so on the forum u better do the right thing always or everyone will know it shortly thanks guy's this was a great thread TOMMY

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 27 Apr 2007 5:26 pm

A. J. Schobert wrote:Ken B I am just wondering you live in England how do you buy a steel?

I was thinking the same thing. In the 32 years I lived in England I never saw one pedal steel guitar for sale, in a music shop or elsewhere.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 27 Apr 2007 5:31 pm

Alan Miller wrote:... a very fit steel player could easily ride a bicycle the full length of England / Scotland to purchase a steel guitar within 2 days. Should this be in the humour section ?

Yes, I think so.

I wouldn't cycle half a mile with a pedal steel guitar strapped on. My Sho-Bud would probably bend the frame.

The chances of doing the entire trip from Penzance to John-O-Groats without dropping and smashing the thing, giving yourself a hernia, and/or being squashed by a truck, are pretty remote.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 27 Apr 2007 5:33 pm

Ken Byng wrote:Ian
I have hit Edinburgh from Southampton in a day. Mind you I was knackered when I got there.

I once drove from Holyhead, North Wales, to Edinburgh, Scotland, in a day. I too was knackered, and I didn't appreciate the floods round Carlisle !

admin · Post by **b0b** » 27 Apr 2007 7:15 pm

I think that people who are uncomfortable with the risk of long distance transactions with strangers simply shouldn't buy things that way, be it from a Forum posting, Ebay or whatever.

Everyone I've seen here who laments the lack of steels in their area lives somewhere near an annual or semi-annual steel guitar event. There are organizations of steel players all over the world. Friendships and cash deals are made at club meetings and jams. You don't have to deal with long-distance sellers. Steel players are very social everywhere, including Washington and England.

The Steel Guitar Forum exists to link steel communities together from all over the planet. The Classifed Ads exist by popular demand. Use them or don't, it's your choice.

Joe Drivdahl · Post by **Joe Drivdahl** » 27 Apr 2007 9:41 pm

Ken,
Some of us don't have the luxury of trying a guitar out before we buy. We are simply too far away from a dealer. I live in eastern Montana. As far as I know, there are no steel guitar dealers in the state, but thankfully there is Bobbe Seymour, Duane Dunard in Missouri, and others, with whom I am sure I haven't had the pleasure of meeting.

My point is, if I buy something from Bobbe or Duane, I am pretty confident that if anything is wrong with the gear when it shows up, they will stand good for it.

I think its the same way with probably 95% of the people on this forum. I guess you gotta make a leap of faith to purchase something sight unseen, but Steel Guitar players are some of the best people in the world, near as I can tell. I wouldn't hesitate to purchase something that is advertised on this forum as long as I know its a steel player selling it.

Joe

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 28 Apr 2007 12:21 am

it's obviously easier fer Americans to cop steels than us Europeans
matter of distance & availability of products
i agree that this forum is a Godsend
Now i've gone the ebay route & i have been pretty lucky BUT ! the Fo'bros are # 1
9 times outta 10 when a steeler here sollicites me to help him get a steel, i go w: the Fo'bros first
i've had NO bum deals from them
it's obvious that callin' the seller & gettin' the lowdown is a must
Not bein' able to hear the sound quality of the instrument can be a deterent but i'll have to gamble on that now won't i ?
last steel delivered (yesterday in Belgium) was that MSA Millenium from TR & DD
the client is very very happy
So - Thank you Fo'bros !
i'll continue to do my shoppin' amongst y'all

Alan Miller · Post by **Alan Miller** » 28 Apr 2007 11:35 am

Hi Alan, I know you are right I wouldnt travel on a bike with a pedal steel on my back either,just jesting. but as you know Uk is a small country and is is possibe to travel its full lenght in one day by car. I did travel 700 miles in my car to look at and buy a lovely black Legrand 11 it was well worth the journey just for the peace of mind of seeing and playing it before handing over the cash.Ten hours of time well spent.
Dont think Id be brave enough to buy a PSG off Ebay , although I have bought inexpensive items .

A. J. Schobert · Post by **A. J. Schobert** » 28 Apr 2007 3:55 pm

I made these comments before. Part of playing the PSG is at some point you will find yourself having to travel out of state whether it is for lessons, or shopping for new equipment. I do believe that if you want to grow as a musician you will have to travel, unless of course you live close to a steel shop. That is why I don't think it is uncommon for steel shops to see guys come in from a 10 hour drive! Your local music store won't carry PSG. It is a very specialized instrument, we are very small in number. It is all to easy to buy on-line and when you get burned well that is the gamble. It just takes a little effort and money, heck this is an exspensive hobby! So sit behind it before you buy! I always plan a weekend trip for me and my wife it is fun and that is what this should be it is really sad to hear guys geting burned.

Glenn Austin · Post by **Glenn Austin** » 28 Apr 2007 5:48 pm

Oddly enough, out of the seven pedal steels i've owned, the worst one was the one I bought in person. All the rest were purchased on the internet.

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 29 Apr 2007 4:31 am

I have bought 3 used steels sight unseen over the internet as well as several amps... as far as steels, I would probably NOT do it again, unless the seller said, "try it out,if you don't like it, send it back and I'll pay shipping".. I might also buy from a well known dealer over the net.. Private owners???.. I dunno, I have not had great luck...

Personally I am gunshy.. Too many undisclosed problems over too many steels and amps,.... I have had better luck with 6 string guitars for some reason,... bob

Brad Malone · Post by **Brad Malone** » 29 Apr 2007 6:59 am

Bob, I bought a Peavey Nashville 112 amp from a fellow SGF member with good results. The only reason I bought it used was that the member had only used the amp for a few hours and decided to go another direction, he still had the orginal Peavey shipping box. The amp arrived in the Peavey shipping box and was like new...now if I could get a used Zum or MSA that was only played a few hours, I might take a chance on used...otherwise it's "new" for me.

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 29 Apr 2007 7:36 am

Everyone I've seen here who laments the lack of steels in their area lives somewhere near an annual or semi-annual steel guitar event. There are organizations of steel players all over the world. Friendships and cash deals are made at club meetings and jams. You don't have to deal with long-distance sellers. Steel players are very social everywhere, including Washington and England.

Some are social, some are not. You make it sound as if we are just not even trying. We ARE trying. The nearest annual steel guitar event is 300 miles away.
I made the trip last year. There were no guitars for sale. I will make the trip again this year. If there is a store anywhere in this state that even occasionally carries a pedal steel I would love to know about it. Not looking for sympathy or for someone to hold my hand...just sayin I cant afford to fly to dallas or drive to portland and back for a lesson or to see a guitar. wish i could. wish i could find a teacher in town...I am trying.

admin · Post by **b0b** » 29 Apr 2007 7:51 am

Ben Jones wrote:wish i could find a teacher in town...I am trying.

From www.steelguitar.com/resource/teachers.htm

Hal Merrill
hm2971@u.washington.edu
(206) 789-3431
"Live" C6 lessons (specializing in jazz, rock, and blues) in the Seattle, Washington area.

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 29 Apr 2007 8:06 am

Thanks bOb! I havent contacted Hal yet because I have no C6th neck, but I will contact him now and see if he's willing to do any E9th. Thanks again.

admin · Post by **b0b** » 29 Apr 2007 8:26 am

My point is that there is a steel community almost everywhere. For example, I know 3 other steel players here in tiny Cloverdale, California. There are probably a 3 dozen or so in our county, which is much smaller in population than the Seattle area.

Before the Internet, steelers sought out each other in their own community, made friends, and sat down at each other's guitars. I would hate to think that the Forum is bringing about the end of that long tradition. We should be improving the local connections, not isolating people in their own little bubbles.

Before the Internet, most used steel guitar sales were local transactions. Some people bought new steels via mail order direct from the builder or from a handful of reputable mail order dealers (Scotty, Bobbe, Frenchy). Those steels entered the local community where they were traded around quite a bit.

Now much of the trading community is global, but I suspect that most sellers would rather sell to a local person and not have to ship. When you see a pedal steel for sale in Seattle, why not contact the guy and ask if you could come by and play it? Whether you buy the guitar or not, you'll gain some knowledge of the instrument and possibly make a friend.

Ken Byng · Post by **Ken Byng** » 29 Apr 2007 8:32 am

Bob Carlucci wrote

Personally I am gunshy.. Too many undisclosed problems over too many steels and amps,.... I have had better luck with 6 string guitars for some reason,... bob

With a six string you have the following possible issues and each are a reason why I wouldn't buy one unseen;
* neck warped or twisted
* frets worn
* finish chipped or scratched
* faulty electrics circuit or pickups
* Damage to headstock

The difference is that you have guitar shops in almost every town and city, and players are spoilt for choice. I once bought a Harmony H75 from a shop in California over the internet. The seller described it as 9.5 in condition and posted a range of photos. What he didn't say was that the remaining 0.5 was due to 2 splits along the length of the headstock. Lesson learned and fingers burned with an instrument requiring specialist repair work.

A used pedal steel is a much bigger investment and has a greater potential for disappointment if it doesn't meet the seller's description. This is a dillema for some, and after reading some of the posts I can now appreciate the geographical difficulties of our steel playing compatriots in the larger countries like the US.

Ken Byng · Post by **Ken Byng** » 29 Apr 2007 8:47 am

B0b
Your comments about the steel guitar players and their own community is so right. 30 odd years ago in my own town of Southampton, England, we had around 7 or 8 players of a pretty good standard. We would share whatever information we could glean (difficult in those days as the hub of the steel guitar universe was in the USA). A new lick learned was quickly passed around and we would all gather at each other's homes and listen to the latest albums by Emmons, Green, Chalker and other top players . We had one sole steel guitar distributor in the UK - Eric Snowball - and a trip to Eric's shop by a group of us was one of the highlights of the year. We are now down to 3 players in Southampton, and I am the only remaining one from the original group.

A steel guitar community is absolutely priceless for the exchange of information about music, players and instruments (including second-hand ones). This forum fills a void for many people across the world

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 29 Apr 2007 9:08 am

I hear ya loud and clear bOb. I think the net and especially this forum has helped, not hindered. I was initially able to find a teacher about 45 minutes away by emailing everyone on the online steel guitar registry in my area. He was able to help me return a defective guitar bought new from a major manufacturer, and sold me the used guitar I have now (which I love very much and am told is a good guitar...not having the chance to play many, I wouldnt really know). Sadly, he passed away last year, he was a good guy, im grateful I had the chance to know him and for the knowledge he shared with me. If not for the net i wouldnt have a guitar tho, and I wouldnt know the very few steelers in town that I do know now, would have no idea when or where i could see live steel, etc. My point was and still is, its just not easy to find and try out steels in many areas. It takes alot of work and sometimes money to be able to try em out. I'll take some of the blame for not being as outgoing as I perhaps could be.

If i were looking for a guitar now, i still mght very well buy sight unseen from a forum member with a good rep. There just arent that many for salein my area. I'd definetly drive the three hours to Portland to try out a potential sale if one came up, beyond that it would be hard to justify the time and money to look at something I might or might not buy.
Luckily I dont have to worry about that, as I have a guitar...and hopefully soon some lessons.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 29 Apr 2007 5:00 pm

Oh yeah, b0b, the Forum definitely helps with the isolation problem. I think it fosters the steel community and our awareness of each other. The only steel jams or shows I've ever been to were ones I heard about on the Forum. It was way harder to meet other steelers back in the '70s when I started playing. And it is much easier now to learn technical stuff about the instruments and equipment. And in spite of some of the long and snarly threads (actually, because of them), I think a lot of us have learned a bunch even about the tuning issues.

Dave Magram · Post by **Dave Magram** » 29 Apr 2007 10:53 pm

Hi b0b,

I truly appreciate the tremendous effort you put into this great Forum. My apologies in advance if this request is just too much to ask.

Would it be possible to add a "seller feedback" section (a la Ebay) to the SG Forum to rate the sellers?

Dave

Billy Carr · Post by **Billy Carr** » 30 Apr 2007 12:43 am

Sell a good product at a fair price and be available by email/phone for buyers. Be honest and don't try to clean out anybody's bank account on a deal. Most of my business is repeat customers. As far as buying unseen, it's about trust. Bad news travels very fast in our little steel world. It won't take long for folks to find out about a player that got it put to him/her by someone with bad intentions. I believe in the seven letter word, HONESTY!

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