Steel guitar skills translate to dobro?

Bernie Straub · Post by **Bernie Straub** » 26 Apr 2007 8:28 am

I have my first dobro lesson tonight. I've never touched one in my life. I've been playing PSG for 34 years, and wonder if the bar control and picking/blocking skills will serve me well in this new endeavor???

And tone...I guess I'll be finding out for myself, but I wondered if anyone had any thoughts?

Tom Taylor · Post by **Tom Taylor** » 26 Apr 2007 8:33 am

I can comment from the other way around, Dobro to steel guitar.

I think some bar stuff translates, especially vibrato, but w/ dobro, the bar is all over the place, and leaves the strings quite often - which I've been told is not preferred on the steel guitar.

As far as blocking goes, with dobro I use a lot of pick blocking, and absolutely no palm blocking.

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 26 Apr 2007 8:38 am

Your skills will serve you well, and your music theory knowledge of the pedal steel will serve you even better.

I think the biggest thing that seems to take time for pedal players is to pick hard to get the good tone.

When I have met pedal steelers that are new to dobro, they have a tendency to pick too softly, because there is no good reason to pick hard on an amplified pedal steel, plus with the tighter string spacing it is a little bit more like walking a tightrope.

Are you going to use a bullet bar or a sculpted dobro bar?

There is a lot more left hand movement on the dobro, and I find that a sculpted bar is better suited for the job. My current favorite is a stainless steel E.G.Smith.

Randy Reeves · Post by **Randy Reeves** » 26 Apr 2007 9:39 am

I agree. your skills will aid you.
I assume you will be playing square neck lap style dobro?
your touch with the bar will translate very very well.
to be sure, there will be things that will be new to you .

Gary C. Dygert · Post by **Gary C. Dygert** » 26 Apr 2007 10:27 am

I play both nonpedal & reso, and it seems that playing each instrument improves my playing on the other one. You'll have to get used to the drastically reduced sustain, but it will all fall into place.

Bob Watson · Post by **Bob Watson** » 26 Apr 2007 10:00 pm

Mark isn't kidding about picking harder on the Dobro to get good tone. I've been playing steel for 32 years and I've owned a Dobro for about 11 years. I haven't gigged much on the Dobro, but I just started playing with a Bluegrass band and after a 3 hour soundcheck/rehersal at the venue we will be playing at I noticed the next day that I had a blister on my middle finger. I use Nationals for Steel but I think I might change to ProPiks or Dunlops for Dobro if the blisters keep coming back. There are a lot of aspects from your experience as a Steel player that will cross over to Dobro, but it is an acoustic instrument and some of the technique is different. I also think that playing Dobro and Lap Steel without pedals has helped my PSG playing. Not having pedals makes you look at things differently. Herb Steiner has a great instructional book and cd out tht he taylor made for Steel Players starting on Dobro. I think you're really going to enjoy playing the Dobro, I sure have!

Bill Cunningham · Post by **Bill Cunningham** » 27 Apr 2007 3:30 am

I think only the basic technique is similar (and musical knowledge). It depends on how what style of dobro player you want to be. If you want to play dobro as a color instrument like many of the A-Team session steel players have over the years, the technique is very similar and transferable. If you want to be a dobro player in the traditional sense, the right hand attack is VERY different.

Jerry Douglas, has written a couple of times that he gave up learning steel, because the difference in right hand technique he needed to learn for steel was interfering with his ability to play dobro. That is 'nuff said for me.

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 27 Apr 2007 3:47 am

Two different beasts. Even your musical knowledge will be a hindrance, in my opinion. Not to say that knowledge isn't great, but the frame of mind to play dobro is different. Pedal Steel is about playing chords, dobro is about suggesting chords. Pedal steel is about filling spaces, dobro is about creating spaces. It is much starker, starker in a good sense that I feel pedal steel players have trouble relating to. The attack I think is difficult for pedal steel players to really get. It is an acoustic instrument and things that were achieved electronically now are achieved with the fingers alone. Usually when I hear pedal steel players play dobro, they play a reduced form of pedal steel on the dobro, the don't play the dobro. It was like the Jerry Byrd piece that circulated a while back with him playing dobro. Nice piece, but he wasn't playing dobro in my opinion, he was playing lap steel on a dobro.

After years of experimentation with many forms of steel, I've abandoned all others (pedal steel and lap steel) for my first love, dobro. I could never quite get the feel for the electric instruments. I now sit surrounded by 4 dobros, with a 5th on its way today. I've never been happier or played better than when I gave up all the rest to focus exclusively on the dobro. I've even given up playing straight guitar.

The other night I went to a party with a group of musicians in a jam session. Sitting with my dobro in the corner was able to play rhythm, lead, support the singer and no amps, set ups, plugs, pedals. Just wood and steel. Truly heaven. Enjoy the dobro.

Jude Reinhardt · Post by **Jude Reinhardt** » 27 Apr 2007 5:17 am

>It was like the Jerry Byrd piece that circulated a while back with him playing dobro. Nice piece, but he wasn't playing dobro in my opinion, he was playing lap steel on a dobro.

Would that be like saying bluegrassers play banjo on the dobro? To me if your playing a resophonic guitar (dobro) that's what your playing, whether it's Stardust or Wabash Cannonball.
I find that if I can play it on lap steel I can express myself with the same song on the dobro but I can't always play my dobro numbers on the lap steel. I'm a melody player though so my playing on either instrument is very simplified.

Dennis Coelho · Post by **Dennis Coelho** » 27 Apr 2007 8:24 am

I had to think about this for awhile. My trajectory on slide instruments has been dobro to Superslide to PSG, though I learned to use the bar and picks when I was about eight years old and taking "High-why-yan" guitar lessons out in California in the early 50's. But my major instrument for more than the last three decades has been the banjo. I was flirting with the idea of a lap steel when I came across a dobro in a music store, and the tuning just "clicked" for me. I sat down and was playing songs right away. But I eventually realized that I was thinking about it two different ways, almost like two different instruments. On the one hand, I was playing mostly what Bill C. above calls "color" backup for vocals. On the other hand, I had little problem playing the standard banjo instumentals using a lot of open strings at the low end of the neck, but I just didn't like it very much.

I find some cognitive overlap between the dobro and the Superslide, but oddly not as much as I expected between the SS and PSG. Now, both the banjo and the "doughboard" sit in the corner while I attack the pedals and levers.

Dennis

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 27 Apr 2007 9:53 am

"Would that be like saying bluegrassers play banjo on the dobro? To me if your playing a resophonic guitar (dobro) that's what your playing, whether it's Stardust or Wabash Cannonball."

It is not the repertoire; it is the method and approach to playing that makes the difference to me. There are certain ways of attacking the instrument that a person who grew up playing Dobro would use that will differ from many of the folks I’ve heard play Dobro who are grounded in pedal steel playing. There are exceptions of course like Greg Booth, who recently moved to Dobro from pedal steel but sounds like a dobro player to me. Others, like the late great Hal Rugg who played on the resocasters CD sound like a pedal steel player playing dobro (although he is using a Pedalbro) to me.

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 30 Apr 2007 9:49 am

Bill, one of the reasons I mentioned that pedal steel music theory will help on the dobro is because of guys like Greg Booth and a couple of others I know.

I think having that grasp helps one to quickly find those places on the dobro neck to utilize all of those two string "suggested" chords. On the other hand, I guess having strong theory knowledge on any instrument is going to help no matter what.

One of the most brilliant dobro players anywhere these days is Billy Cardine of the Biscuit Burners. He played keyboard since he was a kid, and some horns-don't recall which, and much of it was steeped in jazz.

He is in his early 30's and didn't take up dobro until 1998, but plays some licks and passages in G tuning no one has ever heard before.

I would have been interested to hear Hal Rugg play a six-string dobro. His Pedabro playing on the Resocasters CD was brilliant, but the construction and the design of the instrument seems to preclude it from really getting that intense dobro tone and "growl," like one gets on a quality six-string dobro.

Peggy Green out here brought both of her Pedabros to the San Jose steel jam last fall, and they are relatively "quiet" instruments, you don't seem to be able to really "milk" the dynamics out of them like you can on a good six string reso.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 1 May 2007 7:23 pm

Your problem is backwards to most players. Most people move from the Dobro to Pedal Steel, not vice-versa.

Okay, so you're not going to have the pedals, so you're going to have to move the bar around a lot more. You're playing an acoustic instrument. You're not going to have as much sustain. With PSG you can hold individual notes for much longer. You're going to have to get used to playing with intricate finger styles. The dobro is much more like playing a banjo than a steel guitar. Get used to playing entire chords, not just two or three notes of a triad.

Playing any acoustic instrument is more difficult than an electric instrument. You don't have sound manipulation to fall back on.

George Rout · Post by **George Rout** » 2 May 2007 11:25 am

I think most of the good suggestions have been made. While I know nothing about PSG, I play both lap steel and Dobro for different genures of music.

A PSG or lap player has an advantage over a non-player in that the bar and pick mechanics are already learned. Yes, sustain is different, and yes, I pick harder (and use big ugly picks for the Dobro to make it easier).

Some things are common. Because I play a lot of lap steel in A Major (here we go again with that nasty old tuning!!!), if I play Aloha Oe on Dobro or the lap steel, I basically play the same thing the same way, albeit, one is in G, the other is in A.

But, I can't really join my bluegrass band with the lap, to be, it just doesn't sound right. As a matter of fact, the bluegrass band leader asked me to bring the lap to one particular occaision, to do one particular song. Immediately, the banjo player commented (nicely), "we're not longer a bluegrass band, we're a country band", and I would say he was correct.

Remembering there are basically two styles in Dobro playing, first the old "sweet" style (as I call it) of Josh Graves and other older players, secondly the very agressive playing of the newer generation such as Jerry Douglas and others.

So, to me, there can be a resemblance in the picking mechanics and style of both, or, they can be miles apart. Certainly, you can't play jazz on a Dobro in Josh Graves style, if you know what I mean.

Geo

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 2 May 2007 11:40 am

"Your problem is backwards to most players. Most people move from the Dobro to Pedal Steel, not vice-versa."

I'm not sure this necessarily the case anymore. I see a fair amount of former pedal steel players moving to dobro for a number of reasons:

As they get older they are tired of hauling all the equipment around, they like the portabilty and more free wheeling options the dobro affords. And I think many are moving to dobro because at the moment it seems more popular than the Pedal steel.

Michael Haselman · Post by **Michael Haselman** » 2 May 2007 12:57 pm

Well, I'm one of those 30 year steelers who just got a reso. I've been working out on it for about 3 weeks now and I can say emphatically that playing PSG is an almost unfair advantage. I got the Jerry Douglas DVD and I can play all the rolls fast and fluent and I'm going through the Stacy Phillips Dobro Book and having a blast. If nothing else, it sure makes it a lot more fun to learn, because it's a very fun instrument to play.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 2 May 2007 1:44 pm

Things are not always what they seem in purists' minds. Bill Monroe once traveled with a steel guitar, and a baseball team. And, although Josh Graves did play the sweet Brother Oswald stuff, he was originally a banjo player, and he pretty much invented the "aggressive" modern style with the repetitive picking of the top string, the rolls, the lightening fast hammer-ons and pull-offs. My favorite song of his is Randy Lynn Rag with Flatt and Scruggs.

I went the other way (Dobro first, then lap, then pedal steel). But I am sure coming from pedal steel you are way ahead of the game in knowing the chord positions on the neck (5 frets up from the I is the IV, two more is the V, etc.), and having good hand/eye/ear coordination for good intonation. And if you are good at speed picking on pedal steel, you'll pick up the rolls and speed picking on Dobro quickly. Also, many pedal steelers do some hammer-ons and pull-offs in E and A (and C if you play C6). They are even easier on Dobro, because of the grooved bar. Also, coming from pedal steel, you are already use to finger picking with finger picks on, which puts you way ahead of flat-picking guitarists. Yeah, the touch is different (bar hand and picking hand), but you'll pick that up fairly quickly if you concentrate on it and try to get away from pedal steel style. And you will have to learn more two string harmony and slants, but those aren't exactly foreign to pedal steel either. Overall there are more similarities than differences.

Gibson Hartwell · Post by **Gibson Hartwell** » 3 May 2007 5:36 am

Bernie, You have three decades of more steel experience than I, but I just picked up a dobro this past year after playing steel for about four years. I agree with the comments about pick attack. I don't do a ton of sustained rolls on the steel guitar but rolling on the dobro with a harder pick attack is pretty different. I hurt myself working on this-be careful! For me, I learned it is easy to flirt with tendonitis practicing that rolling, driving style. FYI, I picked up several dobro instructional DVDs but found Rob Ickes' the most helpful. Have fun!

Charley Wilder · Post by **Charley Wilder** » 3 May 2007 7:35 am

I started on Dobro in the early 60's and then I bought a Deluxe 8 in the late 60's. I used six strings because I didn't know what to do with eight. And I played the steel EXACTLY like the Dobro because I didn't know any better. Same tuning (DBGDBG), same technique. Including the Josh Graves rolls. It wasn't any problem because,as I stated, I didn't know any better. My point is that you can start on either one and do ANYTHING you want on both. The problem is that there is too much "instruction" available! It's inhibiting.

Bernie Straub · Post by **Bernie Straub** » 3 May 2007 9:10 am

Well, I am astonished by the depth and breadth of the responses I have received! Thanks to all who have taken the time to share their thoughts on this. Having now been playing dobro...it is a square-neck "Dobro" brand oldie with tone to die for..., for a whole week, I am ready with some of my own comments. Keep in mind that I am brand new to this and a steel player at heart.

Bar movement is the biggest shock. Man, you have to be all over the place! And the grooved bar feels foreign, but I am attempting some simple hammer-ons and pull-offs. Not easy! And blocking with the left hand through a pull off is impossible with a heavy psg bullet bar, so that is new to me as well. I am being taught to use much more vibrato than is my usual style. But the dobro seems to demand it.

Learning the G neck as opposed to E and C is not as confusing as I had feared...probably the easiest thing so far has been learning the positions up and down the neck. But my habit of squeezing off triads like one does on the psg keeps getting me in trouble. I now understand the difference between playing a chord and suggesting one with only 2 notes. But I have to say that part is a tough transition. And lastly, the amount of attack that is required did surprise me, even though I had been forwarned by the earliest posters on this subject.

This section of the forum seems like a great community, and I hope to be back often as I continue this journey! Thanks all for the replies.

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 3 May 2007 9:37 am

Bernie Straub wrote:...it is a square-neck "Dobro" brand oldie with tone to die for...,

Be careful...once you start test driving the newer instruments out there from all the great contemporary builders, you will develop a severe case of G.A.S. and check your accounts to allocate $3,000-$4,000 to place an order with one of the luthiers!

Gerald Menke · Post by **Gerald Menke** » 3 May 2007 10:23 am

I had only been playing steel for about two years when I bought my Beard from Mandolin Brothers, so my "skills" have developed concurrently I guess. I will say that I find my psg playing sounds better after I have played a bunch of dobro on gigs or sessions, because, there is no hiding picking problems with the dobro, no volume pedal, reverb, delay, etc. You really get out what you put in.

I am of the mind that the two really are pretty different instruments: different bar, different tuning, different string spacing, often play standing up, more hammer-ons and pull-offs, you have to play slants to harmonize a scale, but I think if you get sounding good on dobro, you will sound better on steel, if for no other reason that playing dobro teaches us why the pedals and knee levers do what they do, know what I mean? Gets your right hand together.

This post contained a good question worth considering, I would like to add for anyone on the fence about learning dobro, it's a really fun, instant gratification type of instrument, at the beginning at least. Plus, I get used on more songs in the studio, which translates to more money, can't complain about that.

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 3 May 2007 10:49 am

Of course there are major differences-but ALL three-pedal, lap, and dobro; have one huge thing in common-they are all members of the steel guitar family,and the more you work at any of them, the more you improve your intonation on any member of the family.

Charley Wilder · Post by **Charley Wilder** » 4 May 2007 6:43 am

Bernie, you are going to do fine! Right off the bat you have started in an area of extreme inportance! At least to me. The "two note" chords. In my case they are important because I don't play a lot of single note. My style consists mostly of double stops of one sort or another. (static and sliding.) And don't forget the obvious! A lot of players will learn the 6,7,9 etc. chords and not the major chords except in the basic position. And don't forget the pentatonics both major and minor! Blues is great fun on a Dobro! Have fun!

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 4 May 2007 9:41 am

David Doggett wrote:Things are not always what they seem in purists' minds. Bill Monroe once traveled with a steel guitar, and a baseball team. And, although Josh Graves did play the sweet Brother Oswald stuff, he was originally a banjo player, and he pretty much invented the "aggressive" modern style with the repetitive picking of the top string, the rolls, the lightening fast hammer-ons and pull-offs. My favorite song of his is Randy Lynn Rag with Flatt and Scruggs.

Not to be contrary, David, but I don't believe Uncle Josh ever played banjo, or at least not professionally. He took up dobro at a young age, and was inspired by Cliff Carlisle, who at one time played with Jimmy Rodgers. He actually named one of his main dobros, "Cliff," as he had received it from Carlisle.

Josh also played some regular guitar and bass, and he was hired by Flatt & Scruggs originally to play bass. He had been a dobro player for a number of groups prior to joing Flatt & Scruggs, including Wilma Lee and Stoney Cooper.

At some point with Flatt & Scruggs in the 1950's, he switched to dobro, and started emulating the rolls on the instrument that Earl Scruggs had perfected on the banjo. Though Josh certainly could play in the old-timey, "sweet" picking style of Brother Oswald, he was the gentleman, as David Doggett noted, that pioneered the modern, agressive style of playing that is so prevalent today.

I took a dobro workshop from Jimmy Heffernan four years ago, and at the begining of the first day, Jimmy explains the direct line that exists from Josh Graves to Jerry Douglas. Jerry's father had a bluegrass band in Warren, Ohio and was a huge Flatt & Scruggs fan, and Jerry first saw them live when he was about 12, and got to meet Uncle Josh. This would have been around 1968. Flatt & Scruggs parted ways I believe in 1969.

The strong agressive right hand picking style of Josh to Jerry was demonstrated to the workshop students by Heffernan, who is a great dobro player in his own right. A number of classic Douglas licks are modified versions of Uncle Josh licks. So there is a direct lineage from Jerry to Uncle Josh, and Mr. Douglas would be the first to tell you that.

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