ZB Pedal Steel Guitars - Please help!

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 16 Apr 2007 9:45 am

Most ZB's you find out there are going to be in God aweful condition unless they have been thoroughly gone through by a ZB mechanic such as Greg Jones. They are the most abused, butchered brand out there and take a ton of work to put back right.

Pat Kelly · Post by **Pat Kelly** » 16 Apr 2007 4:34 pm

Good point Russ. I'd really like to have one like that but I expect that it would be practically the same weight as the d11. As soon as I can get into my pension fund I'll be in the market for a single neck!

Pat

Russ Tkac · Post by **Russ Tkac** » 16 Apr 2007 5:24 pm

Pat,

I was very interested in the SD-11 but Bobbe sold it to Pat Severs who plays on the Nashville Star TV show. I would guess he knows a good steel when he sees one and I have a few things to sell. But, my D11/10 is a great sounding steel. I'm very happy with it. The smaller Brumley built ZBs are super sounding and playing guitars.

All the best,
Russ

Bill McKenna · Post by **Bill McKenna** » 19 Apr 2007 2:26 pm

Hey Guys.. guess I have the old bug bad,
I am the one who bought that latest D10 mess from Ebay.

It looked like a project but for $900 I couldn't let it go. Haven't had a ZB before and thought this might be a fun one to start with. Will post some pictures of it once it shows up, should be today!

Interested to see if it really is a Scranton. If the serial number is really 1969 it would be likely to be one of the last or early bakersfield.

I'm playing Pushpulls now so will be fun to compare.
Thanks
Bill
74 Pushpull
72 Wood Pushpull
66 Twin w/ JBLs

Russ Tkac · Post by **Russ Tkac** » 19 Apr 2007 3:03 pm

Bill,

The good news is that it only takes time and money!

The underside looks to be in serviceable shape but the finish is tired. Guys in the guitar world pay big money to make a new guitar look like that. I would play it as is for a while to see what you got but it can be made new.

Hope it works out. Bill Goe, the seller, seemed to be a real nice guy on the phone with me.

All the best,
Russ

Bill McKenna · Post by **Bill McKenna** » 20 Apr 2007 3:55 pm

Thanks Russ,
The ZB D10 showed up today and is much as you describe.
It is a solid unmolested CZB steel.
Serial number 1169 Scranton (not 1969
D10 8 x 4
A ton of pics at
http://mckennasgarage.com/newgallery/album07

It appears to have been Gray and natural but
has faded to the point where its hard to say,
might have been brown or blue?

All original, except maybe the case. I don't know
what shipped on ZBs back then but this one looks home made. Whatever it is it looks like 5 miles of bad road.

This steel has been used hard and put up wet as they say. It wins the award for most bar dings I've seen.. well maybe it doesn't win but its in the top 5!

The Good news and bad..
Good news is that its got really nice wood. very curly maple which has not been water stained or otherwise damaged. The inlay is all there and looks nice.

The electronics work fine. No date codes on the pots that I could see but, the pickups sound great on all settings. The E9 neck tuned up and worked with only minor fine tuning. It holds and returns to pitch just as well as an emmons.

Didn't play with the C6 pedals yet. I don't really use them much on C6 anyway.

All of the mechanics look to be in fair shape, nothing stripped or broken. Just allot of dirt and grime. The entire steel is sticky with oil or whatever. Not sure what fluid has dried on it, but its pretty stanky at this point

The best news is the thing sounds Fabulous. Just like
Brumley on all the late 60s Buck stuff. I plugged into the 66 twin and it was like Tom lived in my amp

Not that I could play as well but. Having this rig makes you think you died and went to the Buckaroos Heaven.

On the Bad news side,
The finish is just about all gone. It looses more paint every time I touch it. The stain has faded unevenly so, I will likely have to bleach it, then restain and repaint. Haven't worked much with Nitro celluous so will need to find some one to discuss the fine points of Lacquer, I remember using it as a kid
and it was spray and buff process. for about 20 coats.

The setup is way funky at this point, non standard.
A and B are normal but the C pedal is doing some 1 step pull on the 2nd string while lowers others. Not the typical C pedal whole step raise on E and B.
The LKL does a full set raise vs half. on the Es

String 9 on the C6 neck has a pin broken. Not a big deal if I'm tearing it down but just another problem to solve.

Overall a fair deal I'd say, not great but fair. Useable, but not pretty for $909 Plus shipping.

I'll do a complete tear down and restoration. But I'll fool around with it for a while before. Need to find a good source for parts and figure out what color to paint it. I've done a bunch of finish work on cars and guitars so should be easy enough to make it look good again. I want to do a nice hand rubbed Lacquer if possible.

Does anyone know a source for the original Decals that
say CZB skranton? I can probably save the original if I get at it with a razor blade but if there are options for new repoductions I'd sure buy one.

Thanks for any help or comments any of you ZB experts would like to give, to the newest ZB forum member.
Thanks
Bill

Russ Tkac · Post by **Russ Tkac** » 20 Apr 2007 5:24 pm

Bill,

Greg Jones has all the stuff you need plus the information to get you going. You can contact him at: Zbmul65@aol.com It will be a nice steel when you get it done.

All the best,
Russ

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 20 Apr 2007 5:29 pm

I have Scranton decals. Email me.

Bill McKenna · Post by **Bill McKenna** » 20 Apr 2007 9:34 pm

Dating question,
From reading earlier posts on this thread.. (all 56 pages). It would appear that I have the last of the Scranton guitars or early Bakersfield model. I have all the Scranton appointments. CZB logo, on both the pedal bar and front, and Serial number 1169. This is a good bit higher than any of the other Scranton guitars but within the range. I need to take the pots out to get dates.. but I suspect this was one of the first bakersfield guitars.

Do we have any feel for how much stock ZB would have kept in pots? I'd guess not much?

Does anyone have a feel for what the monthly output rate of ZB was in this period.. couldn't have been more than 50 guitars a year I'd think, especially with the transition from AK to CA.

Emmons was doing around 100 per year.

Has anyone considered a website for all this data.
Would be a good reference center.

Thanks
Bill

B. Greg Jones · Post by **B. Greg Jones** » 21 Apr 2007 8:05 pm

Bill, Zane built 170 guitars from Dec. 1964 to Dec. 1968. Tom Brumley took over and moved it to Bakersfield in 1969. You have a Zane built, Scranton guitar for sure. Ser # 1169 was invoiced on Dec. 27th, 1968 to Dearborn music. There are only 2 more guitars that Zane built after that before the company was sold and moved to Bakersfield.

I have the decals you need too.

Greg

Bill McKenna · Post by **Bill McKenna** » 21 Apr 2007 9:49 pm

Wow interesting info, who has all the original shipping records. I had no idea so few Early ZB guitars were made. 170 total from 64-end of 68. Must have been Zane only working in his shop!

I check the pot codes on 1169 today the are 6830
30th week of 68. Lines up well with your invoice date.

Have been trading mail with Kieth H. Concering refinishing and restoration, I'll probably send him the body for refin at some point. Right now I have spent the last could days getting it setup with standard E9 pulls and balanced it. Plays pretty well now. Still having trouble with the 4th string half step raise on the LKL.. I see some earlier discussion on how to fix that problem on this thread.
Anyway thnks for the data.
Bill

Duncan Hodge · Post by **Duncan Hodge** » 22 Apr 2007 4:52 pm

Hey Bill, congratulations on the purchase and welcome to the club...such as we are. I have to say that even though the finish on your ZB is pretty faded, the wood underneath has a very nice character to it. They do sound the best. Best of luck on the total rebuild. I'm not sure I can give you any tips on how to do it, but I will offer plenty of encouragement through the process. Kevin and Greg have always been very helpful to me.
To all of the rest of you folks here, eBay has yet another one for sale, an 8x5 with some pretty inlay to boot. click here
Have a great Sunday Guys! Duncan

Pat Kelly · Post by **Pat Kelly** » 23 Apr 2007 12:31 pm

Now that looks real fine Duncan. Looks like a lot of work gone into that fancy inlay on the front skirt. Anyone know anymore about this guitar than was posted on e-bay? The pics come up very dark on my PC.

Pat

Bill McKenna · Post by **Bill McKenna** » 24 Apr 2007 2:29 pm

Thanks for the Moral Support Duncan.
I will need it for sure

I've been beating my head into the ZB mechanical system for the last week and have to say after working on Sho-bud and Emmons P/Ps, This thing is really a bi*&h to work on. The underside is mostly stock, but had a few strange pulls that I wanted to set back to standard.

I read through a bunch of previous posts from others who are having problems with the ZB changer and linkage and am having similar issues. I have a bunch of worn out parts on the E9 neck which allow extra slop in the linkage on the A pedal and on the E and F levers. I made rods and setup the C pedal for standard pulls and it is marginal at this point. It all works but you need to really push hard and firm to get the pull to be in tune. I assume this is because
I have slight balance problems between the belcrank and the two raise or lowers. In the stock design the way the rods are setup, you have to take the bell crank off, adjust the rod, then reconnect to the bell crank and screw it back down to the lever, then test. If there is any slop at all in one or the other rod, the rod with slop requires extra pressure to pull into tune. It took me about 5-6 attempts intalling and uninstalling to get the A pedal to even be reasonably close. Has anyone tried putting a new Pushrod in with no adjuster, but using a colar on the back of something like this
http://www.steelguitar.net/emmonsparts11.html
for each of these pulls?
I would keep the bellcrank and put the above part on
instead of hooking the wire through the belcrank, then use staight 1/8" steel or brass. Just pull all the slack out by hand on each pull while the belcrank is in the center and tighten the colars?
seems like a simple mod to me that would make setup and tuning much more simple to manage.

I know its possible to get these pulls all to work smoothly because I have good easy pulls on the C6 neck that haven't been messed with. I can't imagine adding extra springs etc. as I've seen some do.
I just suspect that learning to setup this system would take lots of trial and error, which I'd like to avoid.

Another problem I have is the Rods from the pedals to the belcranks. on mine they fall off if you breath on them. Whats the best simple solution for this? New rods with a hook? or a ball joint threaded on the end and ball installed on the bell crank?

Any tips greatly apprieciated

Thanks
Bill

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 24 Apr 2007 9:32 pm

Bill,
The standard ZB way of having two pulls on the same shaft, is a swivel attached to the crossshaft.
Thus, as soon as one finger hits the endplate, the swivel rotates slightly and pulls the other finger to the endplate.

Look closely at this photo (it's a little indistinct) at the LKL cross shaft and you can see the swivel bar with the two pull rods going to the changer fingers.

Go to my photo site for a better view:
http://usera.imagecave.com/steelie/ZB/

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 24 Apr 2007 9:51 pm

On a ZB both endplate tuners on the fingers should close at the same time to have the smoothest action. If they don't you will get stiff action.

Bill McKenna · Post by **Bill McKenna** » 25 Apr 2007 1:53 pm

Wow Richard,
I can't make heads or tails of that setup. I looked at all the pics you have linked. If it comes to this
kind of mod.
I'll pull the changer out and put in something new.
Or install new cross shafts like A Sho-Bud for A,B and C.
There must be an easier cleaner way. (No offense intended). I haven't seen an underside like that in a long time.

You clearly have been working on ZBs allot longer and more than I have but, I know its possible to make the stock ZB setup work pretty well without major mods.

The C6 pedals have not been messed with on my steel. They are factory configured and work very well. I don't have the Knee levers hooked up on them at this point but C6 Knees are usually just a single string raise or lower on string 3 or 4. easier than E and F
on E9 to setup.

I am trying to get a good working but mostly original
setup. I'd like to keep the factory knees and learn to balance the guitar out as Zane would have back in the day. I got a private email forward from Greg which mentions that running a wound 6th and .011 3rd are important for the B pedal. He also provided guages for the A, and C pedal strings. I'll try this first. Along with replacing some worn out bell cranks
and some simple mods to the E and F levers to make those pulls tighter and better balanced.

I liked your Half step mod for the 4th string, that looks like a fairly straight forward thing to make.

Kieth thanks for the tip on the end plate and balacing. I will work on that first I think I have some worn out parts that are not helping the situation.

Has anyone put end stops on the pedals to prevent the pull from going further than a set point? This seems to me to be a good way to start the tuning process. At this point. I have a the steel where if I push
at a normal level it is flat but if I push real hard it is in tune. Or.. I can tune it where if I push normal it is in tune but if I hit it a little harder on the pedal its sharp. The A pedal is the worst.
Drives me crazy

Thanks
Bill

Russ Tkac · Post by **Russ Tkac** » 25 Apr 2007 3:11 pm

Bill,

Look up John Rutledge in the ZB thread. He built the things and lives in Bakersfield. He might be able to give you a hand.

Russ

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 25 Apr 2007 9:31 pm

Bill,
I put stops on my pedals and levers, the feel was far too mushy without them.
The stop is set so that the changer tuning screws touch the endplate a fraction before the pedal/lever hits the stop.

I agree with you that my ZB looks like a plumbers nightmare on the underside, but have you heard what it sounds like ?

I've got a few videos up on YouTube, here's a sample:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=931n2XOo1fs

Bill McKenna · Post by **Bill McKenna** » 26 Apr 2007 11:54 am

Richard,
I changed out my strings on 3,5,6, and 10 based on sizes I got from Greg Jones. Now everything works great. I was shocked how much better the balance on the B pedal got with a .020 wound vs a solid string.
I also changed out the 10th and 5th with lighter guages and these pedals are smooth and firm now. Problem solved.

I agree that the tone on these guitars is great, I have already seen all your video's on YouTube

Thanks for posting them.

Since the ZB I have is one of the early Scranton models I am really looking to try and keep the guitar mostly stock. Clearly it is possible to get a useable ZB without major modifications, since mine was worn out from use. I just made the mistake of putting a standard modern E9 set on without thinking about it.

Once I fix all the worn out parts and get the rest of the Knee levers set up I think I'll be fine.

I am planning a full strip and repaint soon. Wonder if anyone has any ideas on what colors were offered on Scranton ZBs. I've seen Red and Natural top, Blue and Natural top, All black, and Brown with natural top as came on mine. Are there other color options?
I have really curly maple on the front and would like to show it off. If it was an option a burst or yellow front would be cool.

Perhaps I should start up a new ZB thread on the restoration topic.

Thanks
Bill

Russ Tkac · Post by **Russ Tkac** » 26 Apr 2007 12:28 pm

Sounds great Bill. Glad Greg got you set. Post some pictures of the progress with the finish.

Russ

Pat Kelly · Post by **Pat Kelly** » 7 May 2007 8:49 pm

ok

which of you lovely guys snapped up the nice D11 on e-bay. magnificently engraved front apron?

pat

edited for spelling

Ben Elder · Post by **Ben Elder** » 7 May 2007 10:36 pm

And who flaked the first time?

Jim Peters · Post by **Jim Peters** » 7 May 2007 10:47 pm

AS a former member of the ZB clan, I would like to know if anyone has put modern mechanics in a ZB, leaving the changer intact? Something with bellcranks that are easy to adjust to even out the pulls. I sold mine to a forumite about 4 years ago, I didn't have the time as a beginner to spend on getting it back to par. JP

John Roche · Post by **John Roche** » 8 May 2007 12:18 am

So what are the full string set gauge for E9th.