Leave Out The Mechanical Drums!!

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

I've just listened to 3 excellent steel guitar players' CDs, and they all have these incredibly lame computerized drum parts. Why do we need this? Who dictates that computer drums sound better than no drums? Myself, I enjoy listening to people play music. The computer drums just ruin the whole sound to me. These CDs would sound much better without them, in my opinion.

You get more ebb and flow with a real drummer. You also get a slightly different volume and timbre on each stroke. But even if you want a perfectly steady tempo reference while recording, all you have to do is pull down that slider in the final mix and it will sound just fine without the machine.

The Opry used to not allow drums at all. Why does all music have to have drums now, to the point where we're willing to put up with a computer playing the part? It just don't sound "country" to me.
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Keith Cordell · From: San Diego

I gotta get behind you on that one, bOb. Some of them have had excellent playing but the backing tracks actually make the player sound worse.

C. Christofferson · Posted 13 Apr 2007 6:36 pm

One thing that might be tried by someone who's only quick choice is sequenced drums is, after you have recorded the human parts (steel, acoustic guitar etc.) with the metronome track, then at final mix time move the drum track back just a little so it is a tiny bit late. This helps to give the feel that you were playing with a drummer instead of to one.
I've done some recording with a friend's Roland MIDI set (the pads that you play with sticks like a real set). Very nice, even though they are sampled hits, it still allows the human performance which is, i venture, about 8/10ths of what you're talking about Mr. B.

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Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

b0b. I understand your thoughts.

Musical production of self inflicted projects---most rational thought goes out the window. More is better....wow! that sounds like real drums...that sounds just like real bass..real this real that. Usually none of it is real. They just get some keyboard player with a bunch of boxes to produce a project.

A good instrumental project to me is a situation where there is so much strength in the playing of the instrument that is the main focus that nothing worthless is added as filler or to make it sound danceable or listenable on the radio or whatever.

I appreciate the desire of players to record a project and try to find something interesting in what anyone has done. You just have to be able to filter out all the tooky-bang box junk that you hear on recordings whether it be fake drums or fake bass or BIAB tracks. The days of a nice sounding room with real folks playing are pretty much toast. The trade off for a person to fulfill his dream of a "vanity" recording is availiable to everyone.

The better ones are the productions where someone actually knows how to harness all the fake junk and balance it with the real.

David Doggett · Posted 13 Apr 2007 7:41 pm

I hate drum machine tracks. They are just tacky and boring. I don't even like "click tracks" that don't show up in the final mix. I like real human dynamics, in both volume and tempo.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

I don't really care for programmed rhythm tracks on a finished product either. If it's just a matter of a very light rhythm which is non-intrusive, it may be OK. But I really don't like a strong programmed rhythm track. To my tastes, if it's going to be pronounced, it needs to be human players who can breath with the music. Programmed tracks can be very useful on demos, where the idea is to just get a feel for what it will sound like. But I could never go for that on a finished track.

I often play in units without drums, usually a duo or trio guitar, steel, and either bass or keys/squeezebox. I really enjoy it - there tends to be a lot of space which we don't worry about trying to fill up. We'll probably never "get anywhere", which is OK by me.

Of course, this is also a matter of personal taste. I know people who actually prefer a robotic rhythm. It's about pushing for mechanical perfection. This is common in disco/dance-mix music. Not for me, though.

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

I fully agree, and I have several projects using a 128 MB drummer Sad

The Steel CD/Tab projects I have use the fake boring drums and writing the program sometimes takes more time than the REST of the project, because it is always the week spot.

I don't have an actual listening CD for two reasons, I do not want to do one with a fake drummer and the guy playing the Steel parts may be just as boring as the fake drummer Sad

I can easliy set up my home system with the Drums, 4 or 5 mics, everything ready to go, but I still need the drummer to show up and sometimes by the time I get it all set up I have lost interest in what it was I was doing in the first place !

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

I agree that a "real" drummer is much better. I used a drum machine on my first two CD's but I'm planning on a new CD project this summer and it will have "live" musicians including a drummer on it.

(The incredible lead picker, Ray Riggs, has agreed to be on the project.)

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

I agree, but only 99.9% There are occasional times when the use of a drum machine can enhance a recording.

The cowbell hits on the song "America" on my West Side Story were done on a drum machine. The were originally intended to just be part of the click track, but at the suggestion of the fellow who played the drums, we left them in and integrated them into the live drum track.

On my current project, there is a snare drum roll that is a combination of a drum machine and a live track. The mechanical track by itself is soul-less but when added to the live track it enhances to overall effect.

Finally, the drums on the "Infernal Dance" section of the Firebird Suite were sequenced and played by a computer, rather than a live drummer. However the part was specifically composed for this recording by a master of that sort of thing, and the programming included tempo and volume changes.
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Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Are there any drum machines that allow you to build in some "imperfections", like a slight random variation around an average intensity of strokes or time between beats? I still wouldn't argue that this really replaces a drummer - for example, a live drummer can react to changes in the ensemble sound, or spontaneously lead the rhythm in a different direction. But it might help at least reduce some of the robotic feel of typical drum machine tracks.

I agree with Mike on the 99.9% rule. I don't think there are any absolutes on this or any other musical issue.

David Doggett · Posted 14 Apr 2007 6:15 am

Well, if you use a drum machine program to actually compose a rhythm track, that's a little different. You can sit at an electronic keyboard and create a drum track as the song is played by the live musicians. Then you could play that back and play along with it. That could have it's uses if there is no drummer available. What I think we all object to is just calling up a simple repeated pattern.

Steinar Gregertsen · From: Arendal, Norway, R.I.P.

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

There is no substitute for a live drummer, but mine lives 300 miles south. Some of us must make do.

You have to mix these tracks way back.
Any synthesized track benefits from one voice that is authentic; maracas can add timbre, and a little time variation, to a flat track.
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Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

The latest edition of BIAB has improved drum tracks.

And there is a randomizing to them also.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Good examples, Steinar - I agree with you. Maybe 99.9% is too high a percentage. I also would prefer a good drummer, but I'd rather have that type of track - or no drummer at all - than a bad drummer. I definitely react to stiff, robotic rhythm tracks, but I also react to speeding up or slowing down drummers, of which there are many. Like anything else, I think it's about how well it's used musically.

Mat Rhodes · From: Lexington, KY, USA

I don't care for drum machines myself, but real drummers are a pain in themselves - hard to find and they always want money Rolling Eyes

. Musicians seem to care more about the authenticity of drum tracks.

Joe & Jane Blow Listener don't care as long as the song is catchy and listenable. If it works for Britney it works for me.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

I think that part of my point has been lost. I'm not just saying that the mechanical drummer sounds bad. I'm also saying that in many cases the music would sound just fine with no drums at all!

You don't need drums if you have good rhythm guitar and bass, for example. Add a track of foot stomping or knee slapping if you feel you need a percussive effect. It's easy to do, and your music will ultimately be more listenable than if you use computerized drums.

I use computer-generated tracks for practice, for songwriting, and for demos to teach a song to other songwriters. They are great tools for developing new ideas and such, but they don't produce finished music worth listening to. This is my opinion.

Johnny Robbins brought a Ricky Scaggs tape over for me to listen to yesterday. As I was marveling over Bruce's hot steel licks, I realized how it would be totally ruined if he had been playing to a typical computer drum part. The real drummer was playing pretty much the same part that you would program into a computer, but his tracks were filled with life and energy.

Contrary to popular opinion among steel guitarists, drums are a real musical instrument. They are tuned and toned, and they are played with feeling by real musicians. They are not just timekeepers. If we accept fake drums in our steel guitar music, we are giving other musicians license to use fake steel guitar parts in theirs. Think about that for a minute!
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David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

Having spent a lot of time listening to classical music I tend to agree, but the quality of the programming counts for everything. John McLaughlin has been involved with synthesizers and sequencers for some thirty years and also has decades of formal and informal training in Eastern & Western drumming and rhythms, and the the effort he spends on his tracks makes a huge difference. Obviously he can play with any drummer in the world, but he sequenced some percussion tracks for his instructional DVD series and they sound great. Some of things I've heard people do on film and TV soundtracks are pretty impressive too.

I do agree that if you don't know how to play an instrument you might want to leave it off, be it synthesizer, shakuhachi (or steel guitar?). I think people who want to "swing" perceive that they can only do so if they have something banging away to swing against - might want to think that through, hmmm. I have a quite a few steel CD's I can't listen to too, and I don't even use my BIAB anymore for practice, I just make a loop with a six-string and if I speed up and slow down so be it. Life is way too short to intentionally listen to bad noises.

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

How can you tell if a drummer is knocking on your door?

He speeds up.
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Andy Greatrix · From: Edmonton Alberta

Not everyone has a good day job
or live in an area where there is a large choice
of good drummers to choose from.

The use of a drum machine means
the difference between food and shelter or not
and I can't justify paying a bad drummer
who thinks he(or she) is doing me a favor
by showing up and playing cymbal solos
all over the song.

Bad drummers don't listen, practice to improve, or learn the songs you want to play.
They don't listen to the song or the groove, but rather they play their drums with the purpose of playing every lick they know on every song.

I wouldn't need a drum machine if I could find a good four-string banjo player to play rythmn.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

I don't know much about drum "tracks" but I really like using a electronic drummer. I do a gig every Saturday with a rhythm guitarist and a bass player. We do a lot of different types of music and it's a very active dance crowd so I think the "machine" is necessary to have a good dance beat. I run it through the PA as well as a bass amp on stage and it keeps us honest. I don't think the dancers would appreciate it if we didn't have it. As far as preference, I still prefer to work with a real drummer for all the reasons previously stated by others and I do miss the acoustic "feel" of the drums on stage which we don't have but I'd miss not having a beat without the machine.......JH in Va.
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Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

Well, b0b, I think I can see one distinction you're making: home studio demos and commercially available CD's.
Corect me if I'm wrong.

You playing with Open Hearts is one thing; the feel of the other musicians is utmost in music. You can swing without any percussion.
But at home, if I intend to overtrack, I've got to start with a beat. The fun is trying to turn that into something better--revoicing the 'drums' into something that doesn't dominate, incorporating it into a beat that's coherent with the finished product.
Or tossing it if it doesn't work.
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David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

It IS possible to have an electronic drum part
with feel and good sound, but most people
don't have the tweaking chops or time to do it.

The next and more typical situation is lack of CASH.
To record drums ya got 2 choices.

2-3 mics in a really great room,
Most rooms ain't close....

Or many mics up close, multichannel
and lots of mixing to tweak it all in.
That, still these days, gets beyond
most individuals personal production budgets.
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