Tuning down the 3rds in C6 tuning

[Gerald Ross]

I just got my latest issue of Guitar Player magazine.

They have a lesson with Sonny Landreth - slide guitarist.

He says that in all of his open tunings he tunes the 3rd of chord down by 5-10 cents so it will sound richer and more "pleasing to the ears".

What do you think? Should I tune the two E strings in C6 down 10 cents?

I tune CEGACE. That E on string number one sure gets a workout for melodies. Think it'll sound funny?

[Rick Aiello]

You musta missed all our fights about tuning Just Intonation (JI) ...

Here's a good review ...

http://www.horseshoemagnets.com/_sgg/m6_1.htm

If you use your open E string alot ...

Tune the Es straight up (Equal Temperament)...

Then tune your Cs ... +14 cents sharp ...

Your G ... +16 cents sharp ...

And your A ... -2 cents flat.

If you never play open strings ... and use the 6th chords as your strict "home base"

Tune the Cs straight up (Equal Temperament)...

Then tune your Es ... -14 cents flat ...

Your G ... +2 cents sharp ...

And your A ... -16 cents flat.

Or you can split the difference ...

Tune your Es ... -7 cents flat

Your Cs ... +7 cents sharp

Your G ... + 9 cents sharp

Your A ... -9 cents flat


The reference string (which one gets tuned straight up) doesn't matter ... its the relationship between the strings that count.

[Tom Taylor]

I tune my 3rds (the E) and 6ths (the A) down -3 cents, and it's makes a world of difference. I leave the tonic and 5ths equal.

[Craig Stenseth]

Rick,
I thought I stole this from your site, or a thread of yours here, is what I'm doing going to result in "just intonation" for C6? (or maybe "just about" based on my skill level).

1. Tune both open C's via electronic tuner.
2. Tune the G by ear against the low C (until getting that 'fifth' sound).
3. Tune the low E by ear against the low C (until getting that 'major third' sound).
4. Tune the high E by ear against the low E.
5. Tune the A by ear against the high E (until getting that 'fifth' sound).

The part I'm leaving out is how others in the band seem to think they have to be making noise tuning up, because they hear me tuning. Not that I am bitter.

[Rick Aiello]

Craig, yes that's JI ...

I'm not too good doing it the way you describe though , so that musta been someone else's description.

I always use "matching" harmonics ... after getting a reference note (usually an E ).

Eliminating the fundamental makes it easier for me to hear the beats slowing down and ultimately disappearing ...

[Todd Weger]

I don't know, but I take umbrage at the term just intonation. I mean, intonation is pretty darn important, at least in my book.

Is the U.S. Constitution 'just' a document? Is Beethoven's 5th Symphony 'just' a piece of music? Is the Taj Mahal 'just' a building? Is the... uhh... Is the... er... ooooohhhh... oops. I get it.

Ummm... never mind.

[Rick Aiello]

You made me laugh till I coughed ...

Better watch it ... or you'll be put on my wife's asthma flair up "Hit List" ...

Notable members: Harry D. and Howard R.

[Scott Thomas]

Todd, is it just my imagination or do I hear a "Bill Murray voice" coming through in your post?

How do you do that?

[Jesse Pearson]

I use Bobby's quick and dirty method of tuning C6 because it works great with my relative pitch ear. Tune the 3rds and 6ths 3 to 5 cents flat and the root and 5th 3 to 6 cents sharp. What I dont understand about sonny's method is the fact the he frets chords and also frets behind the slide to get extensions in his voicingswhile still using the slide on the strings? What happens to the other intervals like the 9ths when he does this? Wonder what Keith Richards did with Open G, which he used to fret on a number of the Stones biggest hit's? If your not having to fret, flating the 3rds makes sense.

[Todd Weger]

Harry D. and Howard R. -- now THERE'S some company!!! I love those guys, and I haven't even met 'em! (yet)



Scott, I think I know the Bill Murry reference of which you speak, but I just can't recall... too many brain cells sacrificed to the beer gods... Was that from Stripes? Must have been channeling...

[Craig Stenseth]

Scott, I think I know the Bill Murry reference of which you speak, but I just can't recall... too many brain cells sacrificed to the beer gods... Was that from Stripes? Must have been channeling...

It sounded more like Bluto Blutarsky to me, the Germans bombing Pearl Harbor part.
http://www.whysanity.net/monos/ahouse.html

[Carroll Hale]

would someone explain t "up 2 cents or down 6 cents" to me.....guess, I have missed something in an earlier posts.....new member....
thanks

[Todd Weger]

I don't know if this is correct or not, but it sure sounds good when I do it (for CEGACE C6, lo-hi)...

I first get the C (2nd string) to pitch. Then I play that string's 4th fret harmonic, which sounds an E. I then match that harmonic with first (high E string) string's 5th fret harmonic.

Then, I play that first string E harmonic at the 12th fret, and match that to the A string's 7th fret harmonic. I now have the top three strings in tune.

I then play the C string's (2nd string) harmonic at the 7th fret (which sounds a G), and match that with the G string's harmonic at the 5th fret.

From there, it's just getting the two bottom strings to match the top two at the octave.

I don't know if this is right, but it sure sounds incredibly rich when I do.

[John Kavanagh]

I tune one pitch to the tuner, then tune beatless thirds and fifths from that by ear. So in C6 I'd tune the C's, and the the G's and E's to make a pure chord, and the A from the E. I do the same kind of thing for any instrument in an open or modal tuning. I don't trust that fourth harmonic for a third, myself. Maybe with brand new strings...

Like Todd, I hear the difference mostly as a richer tone, rather than particular intervals being purer as they fly by. I don't think my ear for pitch is all that subtle (there are practical reasons for learning to enjoy equal temperament, same as bad coffee - it does the job, and it's what you usually get).

Standard guitar or uke I use a tuner for all strings to get ET, or tune unisons and octaves only.

[Rick Aiello]

would someone explain t "up 2 cents or down 6 cents" to me.....guess, I have missed something in an earlier posts.....new member....
thanks

The quick version:

A musical octave is divided into 1200 increments ... called cents.

In the Equal Temperament (ET) method of tuning ...

There are always 100 cents between two semitones ... 12 semitones per octave ... therefore, 1200 cents per octave.

100 cents between an A and a Bb ...

100 cents between a Bb and a B ...

100 cents between a B and a C ... etc, etc

Electronic tuners are based on this system and the chromatic ones usually have a meter that has a display that goes from - 50 cents (flat) to + 50 cents (sharp).

The Zero in the middle ... is the Equal Temperament designation for that note.

Most people refer to that as "straight up" or "A440" or just 440 ... because of the convention that an A note has a frequency of 440 Hz.


Many steel guitar players use a different tuning system ... which is based on whole number ratios ... relative to the tonic note in a particular key.

This system is called ... Just Intonation (JI)... and it agrees (for the most part) with the natural harmonic series produced by the tonic note.

The whole ... - X cents flat or +Y cents sharp ... is a way of looking at JI tuning in terms of ET based electronic tuners.


EX: C13 chord ... Bb C E G A ...

An individual who uses an electronic tuner and tunes ET ... tunes ALL notes till the needle on the meter is "straight up" ... zero cents.


An indivdual who uses an electronic tuner and tunes JI ...

Will usually tune one note to the "straight up" position ...

Then tune the others a certain number of cents ... either flat or sharp ... of that note's ET value.

If the tonic C is tuned "straight up" ...

His/her thirds (E) will be tuned ... -14 cents FLAT of its ET value.

His/her sixths (A) will be tuned ... -16 cents Flat of its ET value.

His/her fifths (G) will be tuned ... + 2 cents Sharp of its ET value.

And his/her dominant sevenths (Bb) will be tuned ... +18 cents Sharp of its ET value.

Hope that explains it well enough ...

[Todd Weger]

So, what you're telling me Rick is that I'm like, $400 or 500 bucks out of tune since I started tuning this thing!????

OK, who do I send the check to?

[Rick Aiello]

Your method described above ... is the exact way I do it ... on all my C6 steels ...

Except lately, I've chosen the E string as my "straight up" note ... sounds better with my Neer Rhythms ...

I usta pick C as my straight up note.

I use the harmonic just "nut side" of the 4th fret on the 2nd string (C) ... to match the harmonic produced by the first string (E), chimed at the 5th fret ... etc, etc.

If you gave JB or Ray Montee ... an E from an ET guitar ... and let them tune via their ears ...

A check will show the notes will deviate from their ET values ... exactly as I've described above.

Same with Iona, Sol, McIntire, etc ... tuning by "ear" is tuning JI.

[Harry Dietrich]

tuning by "ear" is tuning JI

I find it damn hard to turn those tuning keys with my ears.

Harry

[Wayne Cox]

I don't know that there is a "right" or "wrong" way to tune but here is my simple logic. Since A-440 is supposed to be our "standard" or refence note,my method allows you to tune the "A" string straight up.
I simply tune the C note about 10 cents sharp,E & A pretty much on zero and the G about 8 or 10 cents sharp. When I tune the F note in a C diatonic tuning, I tune it harmonically to the C which puts it about 8 or 10 cents sharp. I use the word, "about" because I usually touch up the strings using harmonics. I seem to wind up pretty close to the method Rick and others use but with an A and an E on zero, I can also tune an E or A tuning on another neck to the same refenced E or A as my C6th. That way I don't have two conflicting standards.
~~W.C.~~ (just my $0.02)

[Jeff Au Hoy]

This is not really related but I've had this question sitting in the back of my brain for a while... might as well ask it here?

What's the difference between say, A440 and A441 (or A441 and A442, etc.)... in terms of cents?

[Rick Aiello]

Because of the logarithmic nature of the system ... the relationship between hertz and cents is complicated ...

The numerical value of a cent changes ... with each change in frequency (Hz) ...


EX:

440 to 441 ... at this change in frequency ... 1 hertz is approximately 3.93 cents

441 to 442 ... at this change in frequency ... 1 hertz is approximately 3.92 cents

880 to 881 ... at this change in frequency ... 1 hertz is approximately 1.97 cents.

Most folks who use "tuning charts" built on A440 Hz ... generally use 1 Hz = 4 cents ...

[John Ficken]

See, you guys?

Dr. Aiello in his element! Here we have a guy who plays with molten metal and dabbles with harmonic physics as hobbies, and yet is worried about "stage fright!"

Rick, guys like you have forgotten more than I'll ever learn...

I am continually amazed at the wealth of knowledge that casually wanders through the threads in this board--it's like a daily seminar in the art of steel guitar!