ThePush/Pull mystery

Bent Romnes · From: London,Ontario, Canada

Hi all,
Since my steel career started in the 70's and ended in the 80's, I never became aware of the sought-after sound of the Emmons push pull. All I knew in those days was that they were a dog to tune and keep in tune and the general advice was to steer clear of them. I thought nothing more of it after I purchased my brand new MSA D10 Classic in 1976. That sound was good enough for me.

Getting back into at least listening to steel, and reading this forum, I see now where the push pull is a very sought after instrument. It seems that most steelers would sell their souls for one of them.
This has made me curious as to why this guitar sounds different...and it does, it is not just imagination. The warmer, richer sound is unmistakable.

I just find it hard to believe that the fact that the guitar pushes and pulls, that this affects the sound. So it has to be something else.

I have been asking my Norwegian friends about this and the best explanation I have heard so far is: The changer fingers, when moved by the rods on the lower part hit against the wood body of the guitar and thereby involve the wood in the creation of the sound. The raise fingers hit against screws attached to the body, and again creates the desired resonance.

This sounds like a good explanation but is there more to it? I mean, even in an all-pull guitar, the fingers resonate through the wood at some point.

Also, to get a tad argumentative maybe, I just can't see that it matters a hill of beans really, since the pickup will pick up the vibration as soon as the string vibrates and since this is electronic, the sound transfer is gone to the amp long before any vibration vibrates back from the wood.

A person in the know that I talked to recently, thinks this push/pull- all pull thing is a non-issue. According to him, the sound can be changed drastically in your guitar by altering the placement of the pickup by as little as 1/8" (3mm) by placing it closer to, or further away from the changer fingers.

What say you all?

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

I am not an expert on this, but it seem as though one of the advantages to the Emmons P/P is that the body of the guitar is brought into contact with the mechanics making for the great mystical thing that these guys love. You can't capture the sound of interaction of the body with the mechanics influencing the string by moving a pickup on a non P/P guitar.

Zum has a new hybrid changer that brings into play some of the body with the fingers and also Carter has the BCT technology that is supposed to infuse a bit more body contact in to the tone.

Your mileage will vary.

Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

This brings to my mind a question I've wondered about:
What was the reason that the Emmons guitar was designed with a push-pull mechanism in the first place?

I've never read anything where anyone involved in the original creation of the push-pull design discussed what motivated them to take that approach.

Did they have in mind the idea that such a mechanism would have body contact, or is that a happenstance (serendipitous, if the concept that this accounts for a desirable tone is true) of a design developed for other reasons, and if so, what were those reasons?

It's an odd fact of steel guitar history that there is such a widely-held (though, of course, not universal) belief that the Emmons push-pull has an unparalleled excellence of sound, yet the industry has not embraced the technique as a standard, with even the Emmons company itself abandoning the design.

Billy Carr · From: Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)

To me, I look at the D-10 p/p's as a part of steel guitar history that will live forever. In my opinion, I believe Buddy Emmons was the driving force behind the p/p guitar. There's definitely a difference in the sounds of guitars from the early beginnings of the p/p. What I mean by this is, years ago, there was the Emmons sound, Sho-Bud sound, MSA, Fender, etc. Nowadays, there's so many guitar brands available until it's hard to just listen and figure out the brand until you see it. To me, when I think of a p/p, the first thought is the tone certain players had that helped make them famous players. The list is endless of p/p players like Emmons, Hughey, Myrick, Rugg, Crawford and on and on. I also remember the Sho-Bud "Sound" from years ago. Bud players like Pete Drake, Green, early Emmons, early Charleston and many more. I believe the fingers making contact with the body has a lot to do with the p/p tone, as well as, the correct torque on the screws on the cabinet. Crawford had some good ideas on the p/p that I read at one time.

John Poston · From: Albuquerque, NM, USA

I don't know much history, but if you look at the old pull/release mechanics, you can see how the push/pull might have come as a natural evolution of that.

I think the ease of setting up an all pull guitar and the benefits of multiple raise/lower changers and split tuning pretty much caused most people to move to the modern system.

David Doggett · Posted 23 Mar 2007 3:36 pm

If you search around a little you can find a passage Buddy Emmons wrote about his invention of the push/pull. The gist of it is that when he was helping Shot-Jackson build the first Sho-Buds he came up with several new ideas. Shot didn't want to mess with the success of the early Sho-Buds, so he didn't want to change anything. After awhile Buddy had enough ideas to make a whole new guitar, and the rest is history. He wanted a finish that would not get cigarette burns easily, thus the formica. He didn't go into much detail about the mechanics. But the p/p was the first pedal steel to be able to both raise and lower the same string. That was an obvious impetus for some of the changer design.

The body contact does not have to depend on body resonance to provide a unique tone. The fact that the fingers are solidly in contact with the wood body or hex screws whether at rest or raised or lowered means that the fingers provide very solid support for the strings, thus absorbing a minimal amount of string vibration.

However, body resonance does seem to be part of the equation. The metal neck has built in curves underneath so that it is in minimal contact with the body. This, and the careful adjustment of the torque of the screws holding the neck to the body, allow maximum resonance in the body. Adjusting the torque to some extent allows the tone to be tuned in.

Anything that makes more solid connections between the body, the changer, the end plates, keyhead, and even the legs, affects the tone. And obviously the thickness and material of the body affects tone. Bobbe Seymour says there are several "secret" factors that contribute to the unique p/p tone.

The unique tone is not a myth. However, to me it is as much about the way the instrument feels to the player as it is about how it sounds to the listener. For example, it feels easier to get good sustain, but compensation with the volume pedal on guitars with less sustain can to some extent hide that difference from the listener. Differences in the balance of highs, mids and lows can to some extent be compensated with the hands and with amp EQ adjustments. These sorts of things make the instrument feel easier to get good tone and sustain out of for the player, but they don't necessarily translate into obvious differences to listeners. For that reason even blind comparisons might not allow listeners to identify a p/p easily.

The much simpler, more versatile, and less expensive design of all-pulls apparently had advantages that eventually outweighed the subtle tonal advantages of the p/p in the market. Even Emmons Guitar Company could not financially justify continuance of the p/p when the market shifted.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

I have worked on a number of p/p's. I have discovered one difference between the Emmons p/p's and most of the other guitars. It being the fact that the pickup is mounted to the neck and not to the body of the guitar as is usually the case.
I don't know how significient this is but it could make a difference.

Herb Steiner · From: Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064

Here's some history, directly from a series of letters I have in my possession, written by Ron Lashley in real time from 1962 through 1964.

When the Emmons guitar wasn't even thought of yet, Buddy was part of Sho-Bud and like others have said, had ideas that Shot didn't want to adapt. In a similar situation, Ron Lashley Sr. was 23 years old, a teaching assistant at Appalachian College, had a small business making pickups and selling strings, and was working for Leonard Stadler and Marvin Hudson building Marlen guitars. Just as Buddy was frustrated with Shot's intransigence, Ron had ideas as well that Leonard didn't want to use to improve the Marlen. The two got together in early 1963, started discussing things, and that's when the genesis of the Emmons guitar began.

Without going into details, Ron said the general idea was that he would build and sell the guitars while Buddy was on the road promoting the instrument. Before they ever got the guitar off the ground, they were also selling Squire strings and Standel amplifiers out of Ron's small music store. The string and amp business actually came before the guitar business, and was primarily Ron's bailiwick.

The big difference between the Emmons and the popular brands of the day was the fact that the Emmons changer and undercarriage could raise AND lower a string, and give as many raises and lowers as you had pedals. Fender at the time could raise and lower, but was only single raise/lower. Sho-Bud, Marlen, Bigsby, et al. could only raise OR lower, not both. Also, pedal changes could be accomplished much quicker than on the Sho-Bud, since the bellcranks weren't welded on the crossbars.

The first finishes on prototypes were a mica glass finish. They soon went to Formica as the glass finish was too difficult to apply. Again, this was in 1963.

The Emmons was an instant success, due to these features and the fact that Buddy was the top dog in the steel world and played one. Fact: I have a letter from Ron Lashley, dated November 1964, that states they had orders for 180 guitars... 30 from Canada alone... and had only completed 7 guitars. Ron had hired 4 guys to start building the guitars, and he hoped he could fill all the orders.

Talk about a backlog of orders like Bruce Zumsteg has today!!
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Damir Besic · From: Nashville,TN.

Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

Thanks, Herb, for that very informative post.

Does this mean that no one came up with the concept of both raising and lowering, more than once each, via an all-pull system until after the p/p? Who gets credit for that development?

Bent Romnes · From: London,Ontario, Canada

Donny,

Charles Dempsey · From: Shongaloo, LA

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Damir Besic · From: Nashville,TN.

Damir Besic · From: Nashville,TN.

Craig A Davidson · From: Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin USA

My push-pull is an 85 and usually is in tune all the time. If not it's not that far out. It is the most dependable guitar tuning-wise I have ever owned. It is also my favorite sounding guitar. There is a myth about push-pulls being hard to work on and adjust. They aren't that bad. Just get the changer in tune and then make sure the raises and lowers bottom out and you have it. A lot of newbies to the guitar start moving things around before checking those two things, and the next thing you know the situation seems hopeless.
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Ricky Hagan · From: Elm City N.C. U.S.A.

I'v owned 4 P/P's and have never had a problem with them staying in tune.I currently have a 68 D10 that I would sell my soul before I sold it.

Jay Ganz · From: Out Behind The Barn

Is it my imagination or is it the case that alot of
guys will play live with their new modern steels, but use
their old Push/Pull in the studio. Rolling Eyes

Maybe I'm wrong Question

Paul King · From: Gainesville, Texas, USA

I had an Emmons push pull guitar several years ago. I sold it and tuning it was not a factor. That guitar was the best sounding steel I ever owned and I regret ever selling it. I deserve to have my backside kicked for selling it. I have read the Buddy Emmons story on the push pull and how it came about and it is interesting. If I remember right he had some ideas but Shot Jackson did not want to change anything on the ShoBud guitar because of it's success. Buddy met Ron Lashley who had a degree in engineering or something along that line. While Ron Lashley was an intelligent man, Buddy Emmons has to be a genius himself. He had the ability to design and be a world class musician which most people will never attain. I would say Buddy Emmons has to be given so much credit for the push pull, and yes even the tone it is known for. Bobbe Seymour told me there are seven things that make the Emmons push pull have the tone that people are searching for. I do not know what they are but sure wish I did. Another other thing about the push pull is the monetary value that they hold. As far as Buddy Emmons playing different guitars today, new technology has made steel guitar today play much better today. We all know Buddy Emmons could play a 2x4 with strings and make it sound good.

john widgren · From: Wilton CT

Its a mystery wrapped up in an enigma, surrounded by a conundrum. And so...banishes bad tone to the land of wind...and ghosts.

Skip Edwards · From: LA,CA

Well said, Mr. Sparkle.

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

QUOTE:

Al Marcus · From: Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)

Why did they make it Push Pull?

I don't know, but I feel that two or three other posters are right.

My surmise is that at that point in time, it was simple , and easy to push (push)a finger back to lower it and to pull(pull) it forward to raise it, all on one string, ergo Push Pull.

I had a model of a push pull made in 1959, by my brother-in-Law who was a mechanic, welder, etc.very talented in that way.

I told him what I wanted and he built it. We were going to build one, it was all on one piece of sheet steel with the changer one one end and screw it to a wood body. But he was busy doing other things, so I dropped the whole idea.

I am glad I did, as I already had my 1942 Gibson Electra Harp that had a Multi Kord type changer in it, patented of course, so I could change any string, up or down, almost any amount within reason, on any pedal. The Fender PS 210 built by Gene Fields, had all these features , and then some.

I hope this isn't changing the post, but talk was about different changers and why did Emmons go PP. I think this information ties in with the post in a certain way.

I had 4 PP Emmons in my life 2 D10's and 1 S10, and 1 S12. One of the D10's had That Sound, no denying it.

Buddy Emmons , genius, helped design both Sho-Bud and Emmons, and they are both famous , rightly so, for a great sound....al. Smile

(edited for spelling)
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Bent Romnes · From: London,Ontario, Canada

Thanks all, for some great answers. It's been an education!

Al, it was interesting to note that out of the 4 P/P's you owned, only one had 'That Sound'
David, I noted your remark about Bobbe and several "secret" factors.

Bobbe, would you like to post those factors? It would be most interesting to learn.

Upon learning what all makes up the unique sound of a PP, I can't see any reason why, with today's technology, one couldn't make an AP that sounds identical to the PP.
Thanks again to everybody for the great participation!
Regards
Bent

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