CNC lathes and mills

Ben Godard · Post by **Ben Godard** » 20 Mar 2007 5:50 pm

Quality pedal steels have really come a long way. Precision CNC machines are playing a big role in the manufacturing process. And they certainly speed the process up quite a bit. There are a lot of builders on the market which rely on machine shops to make most of their parts. This is probrably one of the biggest expenses to a builder. It would be nice if he could just machine his own parts. He could save a lot of money, time and agravation. OF course buying a CNC machine is quite an investment too.

I'm not trying to run an advertisement campaign or anything but I happen to work with a machine tool distributor called J&H Machine Tools based out of Charlotte NC. I am in the service dept. We sell Mori Seiki CNC lathes and mills. I can tell you first hand as a service tech that these machines are definately top notch. If by chance if anyone is ever interested. Call our office at(704)545-7362 and ask for sales.

Regards

Ben

Stu Schulman · Post by **Stu Schulman** » 20 Mar 2007 8:09 pm

Ben,Do you know anyone down there who makes custom Yo-Yos?....Stu

Dick Wood · Post by **Dick Wood** » 21 Mar 2007 6:01 am

Hi Ben,Long before I became a cop, I worked for a Machine Tool Distributor in Dallas for 21 years both as a Service Manager and later in Machinery Sales.I decided to open my own company and did well for about three years selling Fanuc Wire EDM equipment.

Mori Seiki is very popular in North Texas.

Dave Little · Post by **Dave Little** » 21 Mar 2007 6:36 am

Ben,
For several years I have been casually looking at bench mills and mini-lathes. A few months ago, I became more serious and began to really search and compare the different tools available. It appears that all of the small lathes and mills, say $3000 and under, are practically useless [for precision work] as shipped. They all come from the same (or a few) manufacturer in China (Syil). One has to change out the acme screws with ball screws. Usually the bearings need to be changed. The motor is usually too weak, no variable speed control, plastic gears, etc. The list goes on. The more the price gets above $500 the better the tool (usually). It looks like most of the guys that buy these inexpensive tools have a complete separate hobby just fixing up their tools. I do plan on getting a small lathe soon. I just wish I could find one that, after initial cleaning and set-up, can work to .005" or less (.002 would be good). I'll check out your stuff.
Edited to add:
I've been talking about manual tools. CNC, of course, is another animal. It seems that the smallest ready to go tools (from China) start at around $4k to $5k. For someone in the business of building steel guitars, I would think this is not too awfully expensive - and would pay for itself pretty easily.
For the lone tinkerer, however, it looks like the path is: 1)Buy a reasonably decent manual tool ($1K to 2K), 2)Turn the tool into a new hobby for several months and a few hundred bucks. You now have a good manual tool. 3) Another year, 1K to 2K and a lot of study, and you can CNC it yourself. You are now a mini lathe expert.
Dave Little

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 21 Mar 2007 7:06 am

It looks like most of the guys that buy these inexpensive tools have a complete separate hobby just fixing up their tools

ROTFLMAO

Jim Eaton · Post by **Jim Eaton** » 21 Mar 2007 7:28 am

Anyone needing programming software for a CNC Mill or Lathe, simple 2 axis through 5 axis Multi-task machines, go here: www.gibbscam.com.
Gibbs is my day job and my Knob Guard product was designed and cut using our GibbsCAM software.
JE:-)>

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 21 Mar 2007 8:55 am

Oh those misplaced decimal points.... Thank goodness for the offline toolpath verification they have now.

I had to create a 3D surface profile (looked like one side of a horn flare) using a machine that only had two axis interpolation. That meant that I had to create two lines of code for each incremental pass (each .050 inch of cut). About halway thru the cut, a misplaced decimal point in the code caused the cutter (a 3/4" milling cutter) to plunge full speed right into the workpiece. Darn near bored a hole in the milling machine table before I got to the e-stop.

Fun days...

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 21 Mar 2007 9:01 am

CNC is great for production and there have been a lot of times I wish that I had it, but to convert my Bridgeport Series 1 to a 2-axis would cost me $18k and I can't justify the cost. Most of what I do is "short run" or prototype and for that, cranking the dials with a DRO, is sufficient.

I do plan on getting a small lathe soon. I just wish I could find one that, after initial cleaning and set-up, can work to .005" or less (.002 would be good).

Set up your compound at 60º, especially if it reads 2:1. I have a LeBlond Regal gearhead 14x48. Collets are very accurate or a 6-jaw chuck will help with the precision.

Tommy Roten · Post by **Tommy Roten** » 21 Mar 2007 10:13 am

Jim, I agree on Gibbscam, I used in my job when I operated a Makino Wire EDM, did the job 10 times easier than programming manually!!

Dave Little · Post by **Dave Little** » 21 Mar 2007 11:58 am

Ray,

ROTFLMAO

I had to google that. Are you one of "those guys"?
I'm sure I'll be seeking a lot of advise when I take the plunge.
Dave

Ben Godard · Post by **Ben Godard** » 21 Mar 2007 3:12 pm

Oh those misplaced decimal points

I wish I had 20$ for everytime someones crashes their machine because of that same reason. I have rebuilt a customers rotary B axis on a horizontal mill 5 times in just the past 6 months. I don't think they know what a decimal is. [/b]

Ben Godard · Post by **Ben Godard** » 21 Mar 2007 3:21 pm

[quote=" Mori Seiki is very popular in North Texas.[/quote]

Yes Mori Seiki's has a major office location in Dallas. Their big parts warehouse is in Dallas.

Paul Redmond · Post by **Paul Redmond** » 24 Mar 2007 1:05 am

Dave Little should systematically be required to learn high school machine shop 101 before ever spewing his 'knowledge' onto the Forum. Investing in CNC today is a major expenditure and could realistically cost you your home if you re-mortgaged it to buy the damned stuff in the first place. I really get a charge out of the comments from the sideline never-was-es who seem to have all the answers to all the problems who don't and never will have the guts to go out and 'solve' all these problems on their own. They simply have opinions based on speculation and literally nothing else. . .no life experiences or education to support their arrogant views.
PRR

Dave Little · Post by **Dave Little** » 24 Mar 2007 5:30 am

Dear Mr. Redmond,
Apparently I've hurt your feelings. I apologise.
By the way, I own a 1/4 million dollar CNC structural steel beam line and I didn't mortgage my house to get it.

no life experiences or education to support their arrogant views

My-my!

My knowledge of mills and lathes is indeed quite lacking and my investing in one of these will only be for hobby purposes such as making parts for my steel guitar. That's why I don't care to spend over a few thousand bucks on it and I don't particularly care for the tool itself to become another hobby. For $3,800 one can get a Chinese made CNC mini-mill http://www.syilamerica.com/product_h4.asp
I won't have to mortgage my house if I decide on that either.

Check out CNC Zone. If you look thru the bench top mill and mini-lathe forums, you will see that a lot of knowledgeable guys spend months and months fixing up their tools. Also, there are scads of personal web sites of guys that have these small tools. Many go through detailed procedures for making the tool more usable and accurate.

Again, as arrogant as I may be, I apologise for letting it show.

Dave Little

Paul Redmond · Post by **Paul Redmond** » 24 Mar 2007 11:20 pm

Dave - The cost of machinery today compared to even a decade ago is staggering even considering that a lot of this stuff is made in China. Price out a 20" x 40" 4-axis Mazak machining center and you'll see what I mean. For a small producer to invest this kind of up-front cash in one of these centers, there had best be a big payoff soon down the line. Del Mullen invested in CNC long before it became fashionable to do so. He also at the time had a very cooperative spouse who was willing to learn its operation and how to hold tolerances on that piece of equipment. When 'tooling up' to make steel guitar parts, all this overhead must be taken into account. You simply cannot tie untold bucks up in a piece of equipment that isn't going to pay itself off for 20 years or more. I understand fully the frustration level experienced by those who want a superior instrument next week but who won't see it for a year or more. Ours is not a gigantic industry. It's really a small slice of the pie, so to speak. If some manufacturers have been able to justify spending this kind of money up front to produce their guitars, more power to them. I mean that sincerely. It's a great gamble and they've obviously won out. There is nothing inherenly wrong with one-zy, two-zy guitar building. A fine design is a fine design no matter how the instrument is made. That instrument will stand the test of time. I think it's commendable that so many brave souls out there have gotten into the fray and produced so many fine instruments as they have. It speaks well of American ingenuity and that indomitable spirit we possess as a free nation. Without all of these 'better mousetrap' thinkers, where would the steel guitar be today??
PRR

Rich Sullivan · Post by **Rich Sullivan** » 25 Mar 2007 4:48 am

I would like to reply to Ben's original premise. I don't post often, but I think this requires a response.

"There are a lot of builders on the market which rely on machine shops to make most of their parts. This is probrably [sic] one of the biggest expenses to a builder. It would be nice if he could just machine his own parts. He could save a lot of money, time and agravation."

I have owned my own machine shop for nearly twenty years. We mostly produce parts for the aerospace and defense industries, but we do supply endplates, keyheads, and necks to Jerry Fessenden.

My opinion is that by the time anyone without experience were to buy a machine and all of the necessary support equipment, and go through the learning curve, he would have spent way more money, lost way more of his valuable time, and experienced way more aggravation. Most machine shops operate with low margins (just like most businesses), in an extremely competitive environment. They have invested the time and effort to produce the parts as efficiently as can be done, in most cases. If not, the buyer will usually find another shop that can do this. The only way an instrument builder could possibly save money by machining his own parts, would be to allocate zero value to his own labor, ie., work for free. Isn't that what most builders do more or less already?

Ben Godard · Post by **Ben Godard** » 25 Mar 2007 7:00 am

Oh I definately will be the first to tell you how much of an investment a CNC machine is. I know how expensive they are. And you are right about it takes knowledge to learn how to use them. I can't tell you how many times I have to go repair a machine because of operator error.

I definately wasn't trying to down machine shop owners like yourself. I am fully aware of the complexities of machining and of coarse you are more experienced than a beginner.

I was just throwing out there the name Mori Seiki in case anyone ever takes the plunge of buying one. Thats all.

Have a good one

Ben

Rich Sullivan · Post by **Rich Sullivan** » 25 Mar 2007 7:13 am

Sorry. I didn't understand that your first post was just a sales pitch for Mori Seiki.

Ben Godard · Post by **Ben Godard** » 25 Mar 2007 9:08 am

I'm not a salesman. Sorry to offend you pal.