I am very disappointed in steel guitar conventions and shows

[Eugene Cole]

My point is that lap steel... it has been 40 years in the making and I still can't walk into my local music store and buy a new lap steel.

Bill several of my local music stores stock NEW lap steels. I'll grant you that only 6-string lap steels are in-stock. None of my local music shops stock PSG's.

New lap Steels cost less that a third what a decent used PSG does.

[Donny Hinson]

Now that I think of it, I actually did do a rock song (Stones' "Honky-Tonk Woman") at the last steel jam I played!

Hard to guage the crowd reaction, but it was somewhere between "ho hum" and "WHAT THE #$<& WAS THAT?"

[Jim Sliff]

Bill, Howe has been playing lap steel on Yes albums since the 70's, and I think Aerosmith and Pink Floyd have sold just a few recordings in the last 40 years...

They just might have cracked someone's top-100 list and certainly were playing recording in your time frame.

[Dave Mudgett]

This whole thing has gotten way off-topic, so why not pile on?

Glenn Campbell with The Misunderstood and Juicy Lucy, Steve Howe with Yes, David Gilmour with Floyd, David Lindley, Al Perkins, Greg Leisz, David Bromberg, and many more did commercial lap steel (acoustic or electric) work over a period of decades. Yes, except for the obvious Dobro in bluegrass context, it was somewhat under the radar, but very much a part of even the long-haul rock and roll context. Not to mention the obvious pedal steel connections.

That feel is present in lots of other stuff, whether you want to call it "lap steel" or not. I think we get a little ridiculous sometimes, distinguishing between Ry Cooder and Sonny Landreth, playing whatever they play, and these others. And yes, lots of music stores have, and have had, lap steels for a long time. Even new ones now. For a while, there was no need for new ones, they were largely sleeping dogs for a while, but always there, under the radar. A lot of the best music has always been under the radar of the ridiculous music biz PR machine, a fact often even acknowledged by the music biz PR machine. IMHO, of course.

For that matter, I can't buy a new pedal steel either.

Good heavens, why not? Plenty of them out there. This is nothing like 1972, when it really wasn't that easy to chase one down, unless you were living in the right place. They were never exactly the kind of thing you go down to the local mom and pop music store an take a bunch for a ride - again, a specialty instrument.

Back to the topic...

Lots of younger musicians hit me up for info on steel guitar - pedal, lap, whatever. It will probably always be a specialty instrument - maybe never the flavour du jour - but always there, under the radar. I wouldn't worry about it. It's about the sounds it makes - not how pretty the flamed maple is, not how rare the custom color is, not about ID'ing with your favorite rock star, and not how you look when you pose with pouted mouth or dance across the stage with it. It requires a certain level of musical maturity to appreciate. But I and lots of other older steel players play with mostly 20-somethings these days - people young enough to be my kids. These younger musicians aren't likely to go to any steel guitar shows, but they're into it. Funny how little this has changed in 35 years when guys like Sneaky Pete and Red Rhodes were playing with those "rock and roll guys".

BTW - I get kinda tired of hearing how lazy and useless the "younger generation" is. Seems I heard the same thing about me 35 years ago. They're about the same as any generation, except there are a lot more of them, they get ridiculously micromanaged with skads of rules and busywork from age 3, and they have a lot of useless junk foisted on them to clear out of their heads, in order to do anything. But, as always, they do and will figure it out as time goes on. Again, IMHO.

[Bill McCloskey]

Yes, yes, how true. There actually were one or two recordings featuring a lap steel in the last 40 years. I think that sort of makes the point.

The main point is that at one time lap steel music, hawaiian music was THE popular music. Dozens of manufactures, systems, door to door salesmen selling the instruments. There was a time when every country song had a lap steel, when tin pan alley produced songs that featured the lap steel..

You get the picture.

And as far as pedal steels are concerned: I know I can buy a pedal steel. But I live in New York and my point was: there is not a store within 500 miles of New York selling pedal steels. (and don't tell me that there is a store in osh kosh PA selling one that is only 399 miles away- you literalists - you get the point).

[C. Christofferson]

I was just wondering, since lap steels are traditionally Hawaiian, how popular are they these days in Hawaii? Are kids raised on them to a greater extent as part of the culture? You certainly not only hear lots of them as a tourist, but their sound is really, you might say, the signature instrument of that Land.

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[Brint Hannay]

Earnest, I think you misunderstood me. (In fact, you misquoted me by omission--why did you leave out Mozart and Coltrane?)

Sorry; you're right; I did omit those because I feel differently about that music. To my taste, Mozart's & Coltrane's music are more substantial than A Way To Survive. But even then, I suppose I would want to "move on" if several steel players at every show for the last 40 years had played Coltrane's solo from Giant Steps.

Earnest, I somehow failed to see the above post of yours till now. I agree heartily that Mozart's and Coltrane's music is more substantial than WTS. Let me reiterate that I was being a little tongue in cheek about listing them together. And I thought myself about raising your hypothetical about "Giant Steps". To my knowledge there are no "saxophone shows" where four or five players will play "Giant Steps" every time. What is it about steel or steel players, I wonder, that drives this phenomenon?

[A. J. Schobert]

Don B. this is a good topic sometimes I wonder who is buying all the guitars! I would forget about showing high school or grade school kids the PSG, the music program in some schools is shutting down due to money. This is sad. I think if students would learn the instruments there teacher can teach them this will make them a better musician, I think piano would be the best instrument to learn.

[Eugene Cole]

I was just wondering, since lap steels are traditionally Hawaiian, how popular are they these days in Hawaii? Are kids raised on them to a greater extent as part of the culture?

At last a simple question. A lot of what is called Hawaiian guitar is really from the mainland. Companies like the Oahu publishing company of Cleveland Ohio, and several companies in Chicago promoted the Hawaiian music fad.

Slack key guitar however did germinate in Hawaii.

-- Eugene

[Jim Sliff]

And as far as pedal steels are concerned: I know I can buy a pedal steel. But I live in New York and my point was: there is not a store within 500 miles of New York selling pedal steels.

Same issue in LA. Two stores, one 60 miles and the other 80 miles outside town. Millions of people in the basin, and except for one or two stores with a Starter pedal steel does not exist in stores.

Re Hawaiian music - as much as players like to talk about the "tradition", Hawaiian steel really didn't get started until mainland influences started publicizing it - then Hawaiians jumped on the bandagon. There was some early slide playing, akin to the delta blues players, that resulted from not knowing how to tune nor play regular guitar. But "Hawaiian" guitar as we know it is a haole phenomenon picked up on by some tremendous Hawaiian musicians early in the 20th century, who then molded it into their own style.

But "Hawaiian" it's not. My family has passed down "talking story" about the whole subject, which is sort of a laugh - play electric Hawaiian guitar to make money off haole man. Then it sort of became its own "tradition" with a few Hawaiian artists "owning" the whole thing and taking it far too seriously. We think it's kind of funny how haoles like Ry Cooder study the traditions of Hawaiian music, play with the "legends"...when they could just as easily research the real start in a place like Chicago.

But da grinds mo bettah Kaimuki side.

[Kirk P Dighton]

The "Stubby Steeler" is not exactly what it is called, but that is how my little friend "Stubby Steel" got started. Stubby is from Mineola Texas, is only 3 feet tall with boots on, and owns a registered shetland pony farm with a prize stallion trusted steed named "Spud". He did not get to perform at the Northeast Iowa SHow due to weather, snow, ice and the shetland is a little too short to get through that much snow. Look for him soon though at future shows and perhaps appearing with the Western Justice Band from Iowa.

The actual program is called "The Jump Start Academy". It was started by Lefty Schrage, Dale Tiemessen, and Craig Davidson, the original founders of the NEISGJ over 15 years ago. This has been well received and we have more students wanting to start than we have guitars, equipment and teachers. I currently have a 13 year old girl from our area starting. She has been watching me play for 2 years at church. I encouraged her a little over a year ago to take piano lessons and is doing extremely well and is also being taught theory by an outstanding teacher. Her mother says she practices all the time without the need to be prompted. I am excited to have her start.

I guess what I can say about not enough new younger players is what I say to my employees here when they present a problem to me at work.

"WHOEVER NAMES A PROBLEM,OWNS IT,AND HAS THE RIGHT AND THE RESPONSIBILITY TO HELP FIX IT"

It's now our move. What do WE do about it?

Kirk

[Bill McRoberts]

THANKS FOR GETTIN' US BACK TO "PLANET TOPIC" CAPTAIN EMO-MOTZART!
Thats what it's all about. Some exposure to the instrument and access to learning. HEY,IT WORKS!
thanks Kirk 'ol buddy - 'ol pal. Bill

[George Piburn]

edit

[Ben Jones]

GeorgeBoards Lap Steel Guitars Sponsored a Non-Pedal Educational session at this years TSGA Jamboree....

...George Boards Piburn spent time on Blues and Power Rock licks and styles in hope to attract the Youth , and idea of the diversity of the Lap Steel as a Lead Instrument.

at 40 I aint no youth but I would LOVE to attend something like that! Can you all come up to the Spokane show this May? Keep up the good work.
If you build it they will come

[Donny Hinson]

I was just wondering, since lap steels are traditionally Hawaiian, how popular are they these days in Hawaii? Are kids raised on them to a greater extent as part of the culture?

From what I understand, lap or Hawaiian steelers are very rare now in Hawaii, far more so than here on the mainland. Research tells me that Frank Ferarra is credited with bringing the (acoustic) Hawaiian guitar technique here from Hawaii just after the turn of the 20th century, though the first electrification of the instrument was done here by Rickenbacker about 1930.

[C. Christofferson]

Very interesting guys. Conclusion: Lets open the market up to China. From what i've seen the kids there aren't allowed to express rage which rules out Marshall stacks. They (steels) would probly sell like chopsticks (kidding).

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[Dustin Rhodes]

First post. I'm 21 and have wanted to learn to play steel for sometime. I play standard guitar and bass and own a few non-pedal steels that were my mom's (still alive just hasnt played for 35 years or so). Everyone around here that plays steel is over the age of 50 and normally not interested in helping a younger person out. I was told by ones wife in fact that he doesnt really like kids when I asked if he would be interested in giving lessons. I was 18 at the time. Compared to guitar or bass steel is extremely hard to learn and to jump into. You can go to any reasonable sized town and buy a guitar and amp and everyone and their dog knows how to play a little. Steel on the other hand is not that way. You really have to seek it out. Just my thoughts.

[David Fields]

For a kid/anyone wanting to get into playing the pedal steel it is just way to much to invest in both the pedal steel and amp.
Someone here once said that this is America, and free enterprise. I understand that, but it seems that most everyone here and elsewhere wants to make a profit. I understnand that ALSO, but what I am hearing hearing is that there is a fear of the pedal steel dying out after the older ones give it up. Make it affordable for them, and they might can.
Even with a student model and Nashville 112 you are looking at least a grand. A lot of people can't do that.
Just an opinion

Dave

[Dustin Rhodes]

One thing I know is that if pedal steel starts to die off and prices start going down I'm glad I'll be around to pick em up for cheap.





Ok maybe thats a bad attitude to have.

[Ben Jones]

Everyone around here that plays steel is over the age of 50 and normally not interested in helping a younger person out. I was told by ones wife in fact that he doesnt really like kids when I asked if he would be interested in giving lessons.

Dustin, I hear you. I live in a major metropolitan city with many good players and yet cannot find anyone willing to give me pedal steel lessons. we've actually had this very discussion on this board quite often..."is steel gonna die?"..."how can we reach the youngins and bring them into the fold?"

allow me to recap the reasons we've given for the unpopularity of steel amongst the younger crowd:
1. price
2. availability
3. no instruction materials for anything other than red river valley
4. no one willing to teach the kids
5. no rock, rap or emo steelers
6. you gotta play it seated so you look uncool
7. its not in schools (do public schools even have music anymore?)
8. its not present in popular music kids listen to (see #5)

Im sure i missed some , but that covers the major reasons I think...we'll have the same thread in a couple months and those major factors will not have changed, the steel will still be expensive, unavailable except apparenty in the great state of texas where the streets are paved with them, there will be no rock instructional materials for beginners, you will still have to sit to play etc etc .

...I kinda dig that its an unusal instrument to play..its all good.

[Dustin Rhodes]

...I kinda dig that its an unusal instrument to play..its all good.

Me too. Alot of my friends are the typical emo rocker type. I love classic rock and older country but can't stand new pop-country. My place kinda of fell with the alt country stuff. No one I know has even heard of Son Volt or Whiskeytown. So I'm already a bit odd to all of them. I'm probably the only 21 year old guy around here that goes to a rock show in a western pearl snap shirt and boots. Maybe steelers should try to appeal to that part of kids. You know how they all want to be different*. Well steel could let them do that.






*Be the same as everyone else who's "being different".

[Charlie McDonald]

Dig it.

[James Cann]

Yes - and when talking about the "canned" music I was talking about smaller show/jams where that stuff is used, at least that's what I had heard.

Careful, Sliff, you're getting close to the heart here!

[Roman Sonnleitner]

First of all: I'm not really a youngster myself (at 35), but I guess I'm quite a bit younger than the average age at SGF.

The last Calexico show here in Vienna sold out within about a week; admittedly, they weren't playing an arena, but it was an open air with about 800 to 1000 people. I guess average age of the audience was in the early 20s. Did I mention that Calexico very prominently feature a pedal stell player, Paul Niehaus? Did I mention that they are hugely popular over here, being played at least a couple of times a day on our most popular "alternative rock" radio station, which caters mostly to an audience aged 14 to 21? Did I mention that Ryan Adams, whose music often features pedal steel, is a star here? Lambchop, Juliette Lewis, Neko Case, Will Oldham, all very popular, all feature pedal or lap steel on some of their tracks.

Every time I play a gig on lap steel (and I'm barely more than a beginner myself, having started playing only a bit more than a year ago), I'm approached by a couple of people who want to know more about the instrument; just gave lots of introductory info to a guy who bought a lap steel and wants to learn, who is about 18 or 19.

There's a great scene of alt.country musicians & singer-songwriters, lots of them in their late teens and early twenties, they organize events & gigs, record CDs and distribute them independently, etc. and they'd be more than happy if they could find a steeler who'd play with them; if I wanted to, I could play in 5 or 6 bands on lap steel, even mwith my limited mastery of the instrument.

I personally know at least 4 or 5 musicians, all my age or younger, who'd love to learn pedal steel (me included), if only they could afford to, but for most, being students, or living from low-pay jobs besides being musicians, even the 8-900 € a Carter Starter costs (which has to be imported from the Netherlands - no local dealer to try one) is a bit too much to spend. The last time I saw a used pedal steel on sale locally (actually, the ONLY time I ever saw one on sale during the last 3 or 4 years), it was sold within 2 or 3 days (and it was a bad German ABM at that).

Oh, and about the insinuation that today's kids are to lazy to learn instruments - well, I see plenty of teenagers carrying guitar cases on the subway, trying stuff at the music store, playing small clubs, jamming at the shared rehearsal space I use with my band; definitely more than when I was their age in the late 1980s.

So, why don't you "old geezers" (I mean that jokingly!) reach out and get in touch with those kids who want to learn, or need a steeler for their alt.country band, instead of complaining about the lack of interest for the instrument, which isn't true at all?

[Billy Carr]

It's really very simple. here in 2007, anything anybody wants that's related to steel guitar, pedal or lap, is readily available. All it takes is a computer and the knowledge to operate it and your off to the races. Steel guitar continues to grow and find new players all of the time. There's a lot of people, myself included, that are promoting steel guitar and will continue to do so. Yes, there's interest in all types of steel guitars, whether it be lap or pedal or whatever, doesn't matter. Anything anybody wants in the way of steel guitar today can be easy obtained. Plenty of guitars available, plenty of builders, plenty of sellers and plenty of ways to purchase from PayPal to Visa, Discover, Mastercard and the list goes on and on.