Pro and student model costs

[David Doggett]

There have been recent threads (and many in the past) lamenting the cost of getting started on pedal steel. Somehow the manufacturers are often blamed. Almost always, the comparisons are to regular guitar. Let's take a little broader perspective. The guitar is a notoriously inexpensive instrument. That, it's portability, and the ease of learning a few usable chords without having to read music (or even develop much of an ear for pitch), account for its huge popularity and influence in popular music. Even top professional model guitars are very inexpensive compared to professional quality horns, pianos, orchestral strings, and even mandolins (which seem absurdly expensive to me for a glorified ukelele).

Here's another reality check on perspective. Pedal steel is at heart a guitar. And almost no one starts from scratch on pedal steel. Virtually all steelers play guitar for years before moving to pedal steel. Therefore, even the "student" model pedal steels are really very elaborate guitars for advanced players. From that perspective, all pedal steels, from student to pro models, compare favorably to pro quality acoustic and electric guitars. And when you consider that they are all limited run, hand assembled instruments, pedal steels begin to look like incredible bargains. They are. And this is only because virtually all the manufacturers are players in business for the love of the instrument, as opposed to giant corporations making big profits off a mass market. Can you imagine what Martin or the Gibson Custom Shop would charge for an instrument that took the engineering, materials and assembly time of a pedal steel?

Also, pedal steels last forever, and can be mechanically upgraded with additional pedals and levers to keep up with modern trends (or you can forget that and go retro). There is an abundance of great used pro pedal steels available just right here on the Forum, if you are a little patient. I can only afford to buy used, and have paid about half price for several of the recent top pro models made. And when I sell them I always get my original price or more. So once you get one of these babies, you can just play musical chairs with different top models without spending much more than shipping. And even buying from scratch they cost way less than the amateur piano sitting in my living room, or the used pro tenor sax I play.

Sure, you have to buy an amp and a volume pedal. Look at the prices on the most popular pro steel amps (Peavey NV112 and NV1000) compared to pro level guitar amps. Even if you want to go vintage tubes, the Fender silver-face amps we like for the clean headroom go for peanuts compared to the black-face small and medium sized amps 6-stringers feel they must have, not to mention the boutique amps. Also, the best steel volume pedals available cost peanuts compared to the array of stomp boxes on the pedal boards of most guitar players I know.

Maybe we should count our blessings.

[Ray Minich]

Ya gots to want it in yer bones, in spite of the hurdles...

Neither procuring the hardware, nor gaining proficiency on the hardware, are easy.

Maybe that's why successfully navigating the intro & steel break to "Look at Us" is such a rewarding experience

[A. J. Schobert]

David I think most PSG players used to play standard guitar, I think having a strong background in piano would help alot. I think alot of guys are affraid of spending alot of cash and then never play the thing we'll if one is affriad of this then I would say don't buy one. You really got to get it in your head to be successful at this, it isn't for everyone, heck it tacks a lifetime to master and that may be an understatement.

[Jim Peters]

To repeat from a previous thread, about $2000 to start on steel with minimal "pro" stuff; used S10-$1400, NV112-$400, seat-$100, volume pedal $75.

Guitar; used MIM Tele-$250, used Deluxe reissue-$450, used tube screamer-$75...total around $800.

Leave out the amps and accessories, a used Carter Starter can be had for $500, the MIM Teles and many other brands can be had or $225-$300. The difference is the CS is MARGINAL at best, and is a beginner guitar(a GREAT beginner guitar), nearly always eventually upgraded. I personally know many local musicians using the inexpensive 6 strings, myself included,I don't need to upgrade my $350 Godin(new),or my NV Tele.
Steel costs a ton of money to get into, no doubt about it. JP

[Kevin Hatton]

I've notice a number of older people wanting to get into pedal steel guitar on the cheap. Like they are shopping at Walmart or something. They think that they can get into playing steel guitar cheap and easy. It doesn't work that way. Good custom instruments cost alot of money. There are manufacturers now coming out with cheapo beginer steel guitars. They look cheap and sound cheap, and they play cheap. They think its like a Lowery Organ that you set up in your living room and learn to play. Not. These guitars will be worth next to nothing on the used market. Pedal steel guitar is a BIG personal investment. Its not for cheap skates.

[Marc Friedland]

I agree with D.D.
In my book, it's actually quite economical to purchase a decent quality pedal steel and amp, and and then relatively easy to get most or all of your money back, if you decide it's not for you. Granted, I believe it requires somewhat of a commitment, and particularly more difficult if it's a person's first instrument, and not a transition from another instrument.
I'll admit that 6-string guitar is even more economical, and for the most part, more condusive as a 1st instrument. You may be able to borrow someone's $100 acoustic guitar, see if you have have fun learning to play some chords and songs, and if so, buy your own gear. Obviously, that scenario won't happen very often on the pedal steel, but I still feel getting into the pedal steel guitar is not cost prohibitive, by today's monetary standards.
-- Marc

[Fred Bova]

Ok, well,it seems many on this thread are rolling in extra cash, and think a 2-3 thousand dollar startup cost to start playing any instrument is not an issue. Great, then how about donating $500.00 a year to your local public school so that they can afford to have a basic music program for the kids. Oh, and please do not complain about paying $ 60.00 to $ 80.00 an hour to get your amp fixed, because I'm just trying to scrape up a little cash so that I can buy a beginers guitar for my daughter. And please do NOT write me emails trying to get me to pay the $ 5.00 shipping fee on the item I am selling to you for 1/3 the actual value I could get for it on eBay, since you obviously have the money to spend. I am hoping that someday I can have a traveling Musical Instrument "petting Zoo" so that the children could at least be able to touch the instruments they may never be able to learn to play because the family just does not have the money. I guess I better have a few more PSGs in the lineup as it looks like many do not see a need to bring this instrument within the reach of students. Of course I'm sure all who share my sorrow over this sad stae of affairs will be glad to help by renting these students one of the extra psg that they have for the usual student rental fee of a trumpet, say $75.00 for the first 3 months, with the option to buy. Something to think about. "Sorry Johnnie, we can't afford to get you a student psg, as daddy needs a car to get to work, but how about a trumpet, or a banjo ?"

[Donny Hinson]

In complexity, build time, and material cost, comparing a regular solid-body guitar to a pedal steel is like comparing a bicycle to a motorcycle.

Like Kevin said, PSG is not for cheapos (you don't exactly find them at Wally World). But it's not like getting a Ferrari, either. Young people (far more than old people) will find a way to pay for it if they want one bad enough, it's just a matter of where you put your priorities.

If you don't have the drive and resourcefulness to save just $1 a day for 3 years (which will get you a decent starting outfit), you'll never have the drive and dedication it takes to learn to play this thing.

If you want something "cheap 'n easy", buy a Cascio and a Crate.

[Rick Abbott]

I went out to buy a 600 dollar PSG. I bought a Carter Starter. At the time they didn't have a lift option. I sent it back and spent 1800 dollars on a Carter Pro (used) and a pile of stuff, like the longer rods and legs, a bar and picks, a seat, chords. I ended up with a cost (after the Evans 500) of 3 1/4 times the cost I told my wife I was going to spend.The moral to this story is...............

TRICK YOUR WIFE

[David Doggett]

Okay, I was just flipping through the Music 123 catalog. Drums, horns and violins had student models from $200-$900, and there were some "breakthrough" models under $200. So some of these starters can be had pretty cheap compared to a starter pedal steel, probably because of the mass demand. But I didn't see any 88-key keyboards for less than $500, and you still gotta buy a bench and an amp (if you want to play it outside your bedroom). That's probably a pretty good comparison for the size and mechanical complexity of a pedal steel; but it's still a much bigger market.

The cheapest acoustic guitar was $59, and the cheapest electric was $69. And you could get it with a 6 watt amp and soft case for $84. There is no other instrument cheaper to start on. And as Jim P. illustrated, you can get a minimal pro outfit for around $800. Again, there is no other instrument with pro equipment that cheap. This proves my point, that the guitar is the cheapest instrument there is (okay, except for harmonica). Guitar players are spoiled (okay, maybe that's too harsh - let's just say they are very lucky to play such an inexpensive instrument). Comparing any other instrument prices to that just doesn't make sense.

As for some of the other comments. Setting up school kids with a pedal steel would be like buying a piano or organ for each one. A more appropriate budget school starter for kids would be to put a raised nut on the $59 acoustic guitar and give them a bar. For adult bedroom students who are beyond that and want to try pedal steel, other than the instrument itself, all you need is a used volume pedal and a bedroom amp. Plenty of small amps are available for under $200. And most beginner steelers already have a guitar amp that will work just fine for woodshedding. If you don't have a spare chair, you can get a foldup keyboard seat for $15. I use one of those for gigs. A lot of the stuff discussed here on the Forum is not even necessary for pros - it's just stuff people like to buy so they can look like pros.

Because of the way pedal steel is played with the whole body, there is a size problem for those outside the average range. An off-the-shelf starter at the local music store is not going to work for some people. But I'm pretty sure you can order a starter from one of the several steel guitar specialty stores around the country and they can factory order something that will work.

So yeah, starting on pedal steel will never be as cheap as starting on guitar, but neither is starting on keyboards or saxaphone. And what if you wanted to start out on tuba or string bass? Don't even think about that guitar players - you don't want to know.

[Chris LeDrew]

Fred, thanks for the reality check here.

Hopeully this rant is somewhat on topic.........

I can certainly say that the average full-time musician like myself cannot afford the average new pedal steel guitar. A good portion of the people buying $2,800-$4,000 instruments are making their money outside music. So, how do you think a beginner can navigate his way around the murky and expensive world of the pedal steel guitar if those like me playing for a living still find it cost-prohibitive?

I just got back from Dallas, and a show like that can certainly make a guy feel poor. My experience in some of the rooms was that if you don't talk money, or appear to have much, you'll get pushed aside pretty quick. I had a guitar all but ripped out from under me in one room, by a salesman who saw dollar signs in another potential buyer and basically acted like I wasn't even there. There were nice, accomodating sellers for sure, but I'd say it's generally an intimidating enviornment for someone who is trying to start out.

It's not about being a cheapskate - it's about not being flush with money. In the real world, the average working musician can't even afford a $2,000 instrument, let alone a $5,000 one!! Music stores and manufacturers make the bulk of their money on rich people who play instruments, not full-time performers.

I play Sho~Bud because you can get one for a decent price, they sound great, and you don't have to deal with a company and all the pressure to remain faithful to them. There's a certain sense of relief in playing a guitar that is out of production. And with Coop to make replacement parts for my Pro 1, it's a great setup all around. I don't ever have to worry about not being able to afford a new Zum, MSA, or whatever. It matters little to me when I can just grab a classic 'Bud and get 'er cleaned up and out there on the stage.

Getting back on topic, the Jackson Blackjack model, for under $1,000, is a killer guitar with friendly, accomodating owners to boot. There's really little excuse now not be able to afford a pro guitar at a beginner's price. If I could afford a new steel and wanted to branch out from Sho~Bud a bit, it would be a Jackson SD-10 - not only because their guitars are faithful to the old Sho~Buds and sound great, but because they treated me with respect when I was demoing their wares.

[Calvin Walley]

David
while most steel players did start on a 6 string there is a growing minority of us where the steel is the first instrument that they have ever attempted to learn ...( its hard )
i do agree with you on a lot of what you have said
i was one of those that tryied my best to get by cheap (student models , cheap amps and so forth ) but i found out the hard way that its cheaper in the long run to spend a little more on a pro model
by starting with a pro model you have a much greater chance of sticking with it long enough to learn.
i am not saying thats its a cheap hobby..no sir
but on the other hand how many teenagers do we see walking around in $200.00 sneakers ? right now i'm wearing a pair of $ 89.00 boots that are 2 years old this is something that you have to have a burning desire to do and if you do you will find a way
if you really want to learn to play pedal steel , a pro model is worth every penny

[David Doggett]

I can't agree, Chris. I never see a horn, keyboard player or even drummer with less money in their equipment than I started with on steel. My first pro pedal steel cost $1000, and I got a NV400 amp for $200 (before that I played paying gigs with a $400 Maverick and a $100 guitar amp). Like I have said, guitar is the one exception. You CAN play professionally with a $200 guitar and a $200 amp. There is no other instrument so cheap to play professionally. Everything costs more than guitar. Pedal steel is not the only exception. It is unfair to compare pedal steel and all other instruments to the guitar market. But strangely, I hardly ever see pro guitarists playing with less expensive equipment than a steeler. I see them with multiple expensive guitars and amps and stomp boxes. And if you want to talk about collectors with well paying day jobs, there are nowhere near as many steeler collectors as regular guitar, and their collections are worth way less. You guys are looking at the high end of steel costs and comparing it to the low end of guitar, the cheapest of all instruments.

[Kevin Hatton]

Neither can I. The working musicians that I know wouldn't be caught dead on stage with cheap equipment. Thats the real world. I know of local guitar players with $10,000-$20,000 worth of equipment. Its not at all uncommon. A good P.A. for a band starts at around $5000.00. I know a local trumpet player that owns three trumpets worth $15,000.00. The bottom line is that if you want it you will find a way to work extra to get the money. I've never seen a musician with cheap equipment who played well or sounded very good. Cheap steels are for wanna be's who will be giving it up in two years. These cheapy steels will be worth nothing in a few years while a good used Sho-Bud or Emmons will be going up in price like they have done in the last two years. Cheap steels are a bad investment.

[John Coffman]

Overall I agree with David. Costs are coming down. In Jan 2005 I had no steel by Mar 2007 I have 3 steels 4 amps and invested many dollars in steel learning material. I did so on a budget. I had tryed other instruments but never invested any real money till April 2005. Could not play regular guitar due to left hand issues. So started with Carter starter, sold it at a loss of 75.00. Then Pro Thomas, added another Thomas then a Simmons and traded it for newly added a S10 Carter slighlty used.

Like Calvin stated I really starting from ground zero. Sure I knew a little but never really played. It has been hard but I am committed to learn. No guts no glory. I know I will never be a session player but I can become a reasonable player who can play out if I want to. Not there yet but I am gaining ground. I really beleive if you really want something and if you set your goals you can attain it. To many people want it handed to them. Hard work and presistant will get you there. Oh and a lot of prayer. God Bless

[Charlie McDonald]

Yes, you have to pay the piper.
There's no telling how much my folks paid for a piano in 1950 dollars from 'Big O' in Austin ("You don't need money, just a little bit a month!"). Probably about the same as I paid for a Carter Starter.
I would have been intimidated by any steel that cost more; but now I've paid three times that for an MSA.
Your investment grows with your commitment; and in the end, it's worthwhile.

There are lots of pianos in town, but I've only seen one steel, a Maverick at Wally Moyers store several years back. But if you've got to do it, you've got to do it.

[Ernie Pollock]

The GFI Economy models are very good playing & sounding guitars, I have used them many times, due to the light weight, good looks, & good sound, all at a price most can afford. Everyone does not have the big bucks for the $4000.00 guitars, but, $995 for a 3&2, Humm? That makes it possible to get started on E9th steel. The Economys have a welded frame, same wood as the Pro models, & up to 4 levers. The pull-release system works great & feels good!!

Ernie

[Chris LeDrew]

My experience with common, club musicians has been the opposite at times; I've seen some devastatingly good blues musicians with a Fernandez guitar and a solid state Crate really cut it up, and I've also seen rich guys (or credit card addicts) with a Matchless Clubman and a Gretsch sound like crap. A real musician can make any type of gear sound great, as long as it's functioning relatively properly. Willie Nelson hasn't bothered to change his beat-up classical (albeit a Martin) in 20-plus years.....gear does not make the player, chops do. A good musician can coax his tone out of a tin can. Conversely, I know musicians with piles of gear that may make them look like they know what they're doing, but that's about it.

It's unnecessary for a beginner to pay a manufacturer's mortgage payment when a decent GFI, Carter or Jackson starter model will more than keep you going for a few years. After all, don't forget that most of our hall of famers started on $25 lap steels, with little else but a passion to learn. Saving up money was not an option for many of them, and to our benefit and gratitude it didn't stop them. A student steel is not a monetary investment; it's an investment in your playing. Who cares what it will be worth in two years if you've learned enough stuff to join a band? I bought a crap steel to start, and within a few months I was gigging and could basically chuck it in the garbage where it belonged. Since then I've made 100 times what that guitar was worth, by gigging on steel. If I had let quality deter me, I never would have learned. I didn't give a rat's ass for brand names back then, before I knew anything about the forum or anything else. I just wanted to learn, and jumped on that piece of crap and learned.

Don't get me wrong; I don't mind spending bread on gear. I just bought a brand new Fender Deluxe Reissue (a fair dollar in my area) because I NEED it to generate income. But many beginners are at home learning in their living rooms, and to blow a wad of cash on a Pro model with a fancy volume pedal is ludicrous, in my opinion - unless you can afford it. Shame on you if you're poor!

[James Sission]

I started on a Carter Starter I got from musicians friend for $ 695.00. I bought it on their 12 months same as cash offer they make all the time. So, if you want to play steel, you can do it for $ 57.92 a month....James

[James Morehead]

I don't know much---I'm not a Pro musician, by any means. I've banged around and played a little out in the country music scene the last few years. I do not make my living playing steel guitar or bass or tele. So--purchasing my equipment is strictly because I want it and buy it for what satisfies my musical interest. If money were no object, I would have the same goodies---maybe more of the same. I am on my own agenda. I learn my music as I have time, and buy my equipment from my REAL money, not gig money, and alot of trading upward. I play the shobud goods, and like Chris, I think the old shobuds are a real good bang for the buck. I love to refurbish them. My equipment, amps and all, is in my living room because of tone and nostalgia, not because my music gigs buy it. And the goodies I have today came about by carefully trading up, buying and selling, not by so much of direct purchase.

If I were to be a pro player in todays music scene, I don't believe I could ever compensate my investment at $50--$100 a night playing once maybe twice a week, maybe every other weekend, which is typical in my area, for guys of my skill level. Especially with gas to get there at nearly $2.50 a gallon. I see where Chris is coming from. And I also agree, if you want to become a player, you will figure out a way to get "you" there, if you are entry level.

When I started on steel 4 years ago, I found an S-10 Marlen for $650. (Marlen never did make a student model.) So I scored a Pro model at an entry level price---pure luck--at the time, I was not even buying for myself, but for my son. I happened to be the one who fell in love with steel music. I was at the right place at the right time. If I had found a Carter Starter first, I would have bought it.

But even if I had been looking for myself to start up and TRY pedal steel, I would have backed off, because of cost of the average steel guitar investment, just to see if I even liked to play steel. It would have become a "back-burner dream". I would have definately been gratefull to start with a carter starter, then move up. I work hard for my money, and getting into a pro model would have backed me off 'til later, and later probably would never come.

[Dennis Schell]

Looks to me like the Jackson "Blackjack" has made the whole topic kinda moot! That looks like one helluva PSG for $1,000 new!

Dennis

(You suppose there'll now be a lot of Carter Starters for sale at a good price for the newbies?)

[Bill Hatcher]

Was there EVER a time when steel guitars were inexpensive??

As long as they are made in limited quantities by few makers, the price will be high on them.

You can get a great used steel in the $1500-1800 range. Heck a garden variety Les Paul costs that and more. Kids buy thousands of these.

[Herb Steiner]

My first two professional level steels that I owned... both Sho-Buds... I paid for by borrowing the money from the Local 47 Musician's Union Credit Union, though any legitimate finance company would have worked.

Guys make it sound like you have to arrive at the dealership with gold bullion in a Brink's truck to buy a steel rig. It's not that difficult to find financing if you're at all committed to the steel and aren't at poverty level. We finance vehicles costing 10 times what a pro level steel rig costs all the time.

I can't understand people moanin' and bitchin' about a 4k steel rig when they just spent 30k+ on a new vehicle. Like Bruce/Jerry/John/Ronnie/Reece/et al. are ripping them, but GMC/Ford/Chrysler are not. Get real, y'all.

Professional players will find a way to get what they need or feel they need. It's a commitment. If you don't have the commitment, or can't find a way around a money issue, you don't have enough in your "want to/gotta do it" account. You therefore have to borrow (finance) the bucks, earn more money somewhere (second job?), or sell something you now own. I've done all those things, so have lots of other players on this forum. It's not as much about the cost of the guitar, as it's about the player and his relationship to acquiring money, and his/her ability to achieve seemingly difficult goals.

[Alvin Blaine]

"Sorry Johnnie, we can't afford to get you a student psg, as daddy needs a car to get to work, but how about a trumpet, or a banjo ?"

You can get cheep Asian made beginner model trumpets and banjos for under $500, but for anything of professional quality, it will cost more than most any steel.

Even used professional banjos go for more than most steels, lots more. I have about the cheapest model of an OME Banjo made, and I had to trade an old Sho-Bud Pro-I, and Fender Tele, and a Deluxe Reverb to get it, and the banjo was used. This banjo new back in '85 was almost $2500 and it's their basic beginner model.

As for trumpets, I don't know of any pro players out here in Vegas with anything under $5000.

Sure the prices on most beginners model instruments are lower than they are on a pedal steel, but the prices on a high quality professional pedal steel are much lower than just about any other instrument.

All I can say is don't start "Johnnie" on the banjo or mandolin, because the full price of the worlds top pedal steel is just a 10% deposit on an instrument in the Bluegrass world.

Take for instance, this past weekend on the Gand Ole Opry. When Mel Tillis and the Statesiders where on stage, Terry Bethel was playing one of his Bethel Steels. You could probably get Terry to build you the steel of your dreams with everything on it for under $4000.
I didn't see what steel Tommy White had on stage, but if he had his MSA D10 Millennium M3(one of the most expensive steels on the market) those run just under $5000.

Now lets look at another act that was on the Opry last weekend, Ricky Skaggs and Kentucky Thunder.
No pedal steels in this band, just Mandolin, banjo, fiddle, acoustic guitars, and double bass. You can buy a "Gibson Ricky Skaggs Master Model Mandolin" like Ricky's for around $26,000. Cody Kilby's guitar, if it was his Bourgeois w/Brazilian rosewood & Adirondack spruce, then about $10,000 will get you one. And Jim Mills pre-war Gibson flathead banjo for $70,000.

[Ben Jones]

its all relative. its not expensive if you compare it to a mandolin or a flute...its very expensive if you compare it to a guitar. for hand crafted instruments of this size and complexity are they overpriced? no. Could I ever afford to buy one? no.
I thought country folk were poor? how the heck do you boys afford fiddles, mandolins and steel guitars?
ONe guy on a 25 cent jug, the guy next to him on a 25K mandolin...

seats and volume pedals however I find to be WAY overpriced...why $200 for a seat?? or $140 for a potentiometer(that will last only a few hours anyway) a metal casing and a couple inches of string?
a $200 seat better get me a beer and massage my butt too