Why not the Universal 12 stringer?

David Fields · From: South Carolina, USA

I ask this because it seems that this would be the perfect blend of both the C6th, and E9th. You would need only one neck for both sounds, right? Is it just because the split necks have been the standard for so long? I am still learning, so I ask because of the ideas and awesome teaching that I receive every single time that I come to this site.

Dave

Delvin Morgan · From: Lindstrom, Minnesota, USA

David,

I have a 12 string Extended E9, which I think is the perfect tuning. You have the low notes for Blues or Jazz, and also for a deeper, richer country sound. I have heard some C6 type of stuff played on the 12 string extE9.

Mike Wheeler · From: Delaware, Ohio, USA

Perfect blend? Not really, David. I'm sure you'll get all kinds of answers. I like the U12 because everything I want is under my fingers. It isn't totally E9th, or C6th, but it has a great many features of each tuning. How important those features are to you will determine which one you choose.

For instance, having one whole neck devoted to one tuning allows a player to have special knee levers just for that tuning. On D-10s, one set of right levers can operate on both necks, but change different strings...2 levers doing the work of 4. (Can't do that on a U12) Now, on both guitars the left knees can be set up in two groups...one for E9th, the other for C6th(B6th)...and as many as 5 levers in each group.

The biggest difficulty with a U12, is having to continuously engage the E to D# lever while playing in B6th(C6th) mode. That inhibits that knee from doing much else...that's why the locking lever was introduced...it frees up that knee to do other things. Some like it, some don't.

Still, the U12 is unique in that one can seamlessly flow from one mode to another. In fact, most U12 players like to think of the U12 as one big tuning, without any distinction as to E9th or B6th(C6th). And that's the secret of the U12...it's one incredible, big monster of a tuning with which one can play the classic old banjo rolls, or jump on a big jazz chord at will.

The whole thing, U12, or D10, is purely a matter of personal choice and what floats your boat. For someone new to pedal steel, I'd advise starting on a S10...E9th or C6th. Then after learning the basics of how to play, he can make a more informed choice where to take things.
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Ron Randall · From: Dallas, Texas, USA

http://www.b0b.com/infoedu/future1.htm

I started PEDAL steel about 5 years ago. UP until then, I played guitar, bass, and 8 string lap steel.

When it came time to choose, this article helped me.
It is long, but stay with it.

I did not want to start on one psg and then have to learn a new one. I ain't got that many years left!

David Doggett · Posted 9 Mar 2007 10:21 pm

Nothing's perfect - there are compromises with everything. But I tried S10 E9, D10, S12 ext. E9, and S12 E9/B6 universal, and the latter is the one I fell in love with. I definitely wanted the extra strings at the bottom of E9, and I wanted the 6th neck stuff, but I didn't want to lug around a D12. Ext. E9 didn't have the 6th neck stuff, and the D string in the middle of the E chord made the lower grips too complicated. Somehow I learned to live with that D on S10 E9, but my thumb is just too dumb for it with all those other low strings on ext. E9. The uni simplified those low grips, and also gave me the whole 6th neck. Also, I have come to use the low root of the minor chord with the A pedal extensively, and ext. E9 doesn't have that (although some ext. E9 players lower the 12th string to that low C#).

As mentioned above, there is about 10% of D10 E9 and C6 that you can't get on a uni, because you loose the dual neck use of the right knees. But rather than focus on the missing 10%, I consider that I have 180% under my fingers at all times. In that sense, the uni is not merely a duplication of D10 in a single neck, but when viewed as one big tuning, it is a third tuning in its own right.

As for beginners, 12 strings are daunting, especially when coming from 6-string. But you don't have to try to use them all from the start. I could easily teach a beginner on a uni. I would start with the center 8 strings and the A and B pedals (the original E9 tuning) and bring in all the rest one item at a time.

The type of music you intend to play makes a difference. For traditional country, 10-string E9 is enough. And if you want to add Western swing, a D10 gets you there. And the vast majority of country and western players stay with S10 or D10. But for rock and blues, the extra low strings of a uni are really useful for power chords and rhythm work. And I find them very useful for jazz and classical music. For those reasons, players who play genres other than traditional country and Western swing are the big 12-string users, either ext. E9 or Uni. But those are just general trends. There are some country and wester pickers who use a uni, and some experimentalists who prefer a D10 or even an S10. It's a free country. Smile

Billy Carr · From: Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)

For me, the big thing that helped me figure out how simple the 12U's are is the fact that I play both E9th & C6th. If a player plays a D-10 and especially knows a lot of C6th, it'll be a walk in the park. I have to separate the E9th from the B6th though when I play a 12U. The one thing I see on a 12U that I like is the mixing/mingling of the two tunings in one. In other words, if a player is playing something in the E9th mode, he actually has all of the B6th right there with it. Just knowing where it's at while in the E9th mode without switching to the B6th mode is the problem I run into on a 12U. I figured out a few of the E/B things together but my mind set is on either E9th or B6th if on a 12U. I relate it to a D-10, going from one tuning to the next.

Ernie Pollock · From: Mt Savage, Md USA

I have played both, mostly Universal E9th/B6th for most of my 'barroom' career with pedal steel. I still like the D-10s the best, & the open notes available on the C6th are more useful than the B6th open notes, the boys used to hate playing steel guitar rag in Eb & B!! I really like the feel of the 10 strings under my hands than the 12. the one thing I like extremely well with the 10 string C6th is the D note on top, on B6th you have to reach around the 3rd string to get it on the 2nd string, never liked that. One thing I did like was the smaller size, but with the newer steels, weight & size is not really a problem with a D-10. Just my thoughts on this, not trying to convert anyone, one way or the other. Just use the one that you feel the best about.

Ernie Pollock
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b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

I'm not a jazz player at all. I play Extended E9th for almost everything, but I switch to C6th when I want more of a folk/blues sound in keys like C and G. The open strings and the natural resonance in those keys provide an effect that you really can't get out of the U-12.

Other than that, my main problem with the U-12 is that it doesn't have a middle D string. On my D-12 guitar, I even have a middle D string on my C6th neck. I don't like having to use a knee lever to get a very common note right in the middle of the guitar's range. This is why, even on a single neck, I prefer Extended E9th to U-12.
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Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

I learned on a universal. I've never played anything else.

I use the D note all the time, Mostly in conjunction with the A nad B pedals as the bass note for some sort of major 7 or 9 chord. It never bothered me to have it on a knee lever. In fact, I think having it there (the 8th string lowered) makes it easier to hit those chords because the string grips are closer and there is no unwanted note or string between the root and 3rd of the chord.

As has been said many times, it's all subjectve. Everything works, but different things work better for different people.
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Scott Henderson · From: Camdenton, Missouri, USA

If I was starting all over again I would start with a an eight string non pedal. We get so pedal happy when we are starting we forget to learn how to understand the neck/tuning. It trains the ears to hand coordination better. then you can understand any tuning. My arsenal includes a U-12, D-10, and D-8. I love playing all of them for their unique personalities. It's all what you want. And I don't neccessarily agree with the pedal limitations thought. I approach the Uni philosphpy with the attitude that I am either playing E9 or B6. when I play E9 I have 8 pedals and 5 knee levers. When I play B6 I have 8 pedals and 5 knee levers.
It's all what you want and how you want to use it.
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Albert Svenddal · From: Minneapolis, MN

Scott is really right about the approach that both tunings have 8 by 5. Example: On the C-6 tuning, pedal 7 (on most guitars), raises the third and fourth strings up a whole tone each. When this pedal is applied to the E-9th tuning of the Universal. it creates a beautiful 2-seventh chord. There are several other examples, but the Universal has the best of both and then some. Blessings, Albert
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Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

I play a universal of sorts as well - a B6 8-string (also a 10 string version of the same tuning). I find it's simply more versatile, and as previously stated it's nice not having to change necks (and mindset) for different styles. I tried E9, but found it very limiting for me (it's not for others, but for me it just didn't have the right vibe). If I was more interested in "normal" steel I'd play a 12-string universal without a doubt.
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Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

I like having 2 necks for the dumb reason...just switching necks when you break a string isn't an option on a universal! Laughing

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

I like the U12 concept, but find it more sensible to my way of thinking to set it up like the Bb6th guys do (only I tune to B6/E9 istead of Bb6/Eb9).

Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

Extended E9th or Universal, a case can be made for either. Either way, it's just getting accustomed to the string grips, like any other tuning.

Joe Turner from South Carolina plays great stuff that sounds a lot like C6th, beautiful big jazz chords, on his extended E9th.

David Doggett · Posted 13 Mar 2007 10:34 am

Brint is right. With the A and B pedals down, Ext. E9 or uni becomes an A6 neck, and it has the low strings to get down in the lower register for that C6 neck sound (provided that you put the appropriate changes on the low strings; that is, the same changes as on the strings an octave above).

On my LKV I have a feel stop that raises string 7 to G, and past that feel it goes to G#. So with the A and B pedals down I have A6; with the feel stop I have A7; and activating the vertical knee all the way gives me Amaj7. You can play tons of jazz that way, and use the frets you are familiar with for the A and B pedals on E9. Up one fret using the A/F combination gives a dimished, and ABF gives and augmented. So you have all the essentials of jazz without ever moving your foot off those good ole A and B pedals. Smile

Al Marcus · From: Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)

Pete- I like your tuning concept. If you don't play a lot of E9 and more B6 that would be the way to go for me too.
Reece did it for years with his Bbma6maj7th. But you have to hold the Knee lever in a lot to play E9th with B6/E9.

But with E9/B6 you dont have to hold that lever in until you want to lower yours E's as in a S10 or D10. I personlly like lowering the middle E to D, I don't like to lose the B on the way it is usally done.
But whatever suits and is comfortable and easier for the player is the way to go.

I have to agree with Donny, If something goes wrong with one neck, you can always jump over to the other one and keep playing. I had an Emmons PP and the pedal rods came off on the E9 neck, I just went over to the C6 neck., But now it is the E6 neck...al. Smile

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John De Maille · From: On a Mountain in Upstate Halcottsville, N.Y.

My ZumSteel is an S-12U with 7&5, and I love playing it. I got it 3 years ago, and it was my first venture into playing a true 6th sounding steel, with the bottom heavy strings. It's tuned to Jeff Newman's tuning because I trusted Jeff and his knowledge of the steel. And, I think,so far, he was right. I first approached it as 2 tunings, but, have learned to use it as "one big tuning". Sliding from one style to another with ease. I like to play western swing on it mainly ( I'm not an avid Jazz follower ) in the 6th style. Even though I'm more comfortable playing E-9th, I can switch effortlessly to a 6th mode.
I never cared for playing a D-10, simply because I have short arms and don't like reaching out for the outside neck. Just not right "for me".
As to why more "pro's" don't play an S-12U, I've never heard a serious answer. Some say because you can't load up a single frame with all the knee levers and such. Some say you don't get the same resonance on a single body. But, I've seen S-12U's on double body frames, so that don't wash. Maybe it's tradition, or esthetics, or prestige. Or, they could have learned playing A or C-6th tunings and adopted the E-9th later on, but, still kept their 6th neck. Who knows for sure? I don't think there is a distinct answer to be had.
I've been playing for 30 years and the last 3 have been ecstatic. The whole ball of wax rolled up into one. I'm glad I did it and will never go back. I'm learning more and more and it's rewarding and satisfying. I thank Jeff Newman for his knowledge and Bruce Zumsteg for building a great steel.

Scott Henderson · From: Camdenton, Missouri, USA

John you bring up valid points about "why". I think the knee lever issue is bogus too. I was told a long time ago when I was fighting the good fight for Uni's like this. Builders can make more money off of D-10's Plain and simple. I don't know if it's true or not I'm not a builder. HOWEVER I will say one very prominent player has been heard saying behind closed doors if he had it to do all over again he would go with a UNI. Won't say his name. I think the fact that Jeff played one so publicly not to mention so proficiently speaks volumes for what the Uni is capable of in the mind of a highly intelectual musician such as Mr. Newman. But I still have to think if he were here posting he would say, " Hey you gotta buy it you gotta play it what ever makes you happy." So I go back to my original statement. "It's all what you want"
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David Doggett · Posted 14 Mar 2007 8:27 pm

I wont argue with Scott. He's one of the best uni players around (is your web site still up, Scott?). As for the knee levers, I guess I overlooked the fact that you could put 4 levers on the right knee. You could have two for each mode (just like D10), and fold the two not being used out of the way temporarily. And for the left knee, you can have a center cluster dedicated to B6 mode. So you really can have it all on a uni if that's what you want. Myself, for the moment I'm trying to see how far I can go with 5 levers, treating it as one big tuning available all the time. I don't have near enough years left to get to the end of that. Sad

A. J. Schobert · From: Cincinnati, Ohio,

I feel 7 pedals is too much to navigate for one neck, Plus there isn't enough learning material out to promote the U12, so that leaves a ton of us ignorant to its abillities. The U12 is like a Bill Hankey post come to life, very hard to understand.

David Doggett · Posted 14 Mar 2007 10:37 pm

A.J., 7 pedals and 12 strings is way easier than the 8 pedals and 20 strings of a D10. And I confess I make little use of most of the B6 pedals on my uni, even when I'm in B6 mode. I just haven't gotten around to that yet. All in good time. And it seems like much of what the B6 pedals do can be done other ways on a uni that aren't available on C6.

As for tab and instruction material, Jeff Newman has good universal stuff, also Joe Wright. Plus, any E9 tab reads on uni exactly the same as on E9, except for the D string. And C6 tab reads the same on a uni except for the top two strings. You will be playing a half step lower, but if you don't want to do that, you can just read everything up one fret - it's easy to get use to that. But I don't do much tab work. I mostly listen to stuff and work it out for myself. I learn more that way, and that's the way you have to do it on the band stand anyway. I can assure you that playing a uni is easier than following Bill Hanky's posts. Wink

John De Maille · From: On a Mountain in Upstate Halcottsville, N.Y.

There's another option on a UNI, too. With strings 8,9,10,and 11, you get a repeat of strings 3,4,5,and 6. If you wanted to play some nice, low, solid sounding chords, for backing up a singer or just some solid bottom to the band, you can get them there. There's also some nice 6 string guitar notes to be had, that'll rival any guitar player in a band. If overplayed, it can become boring, but, it's nice to have the extra options once in a while.
I once did a gig with just another guitar player. When "I" played, he played a syncopated rhythmn behind me, when "he" played, I chorded the same, but, added some base notes that sounded great. I wouldn't want to do it all the time, but, it worked out well and we got paid for it too...

Mike Ester · From: New Braunfels, Texas, USA

David, I played an 86-lb D10 for 22 years before I decided it was time to go to a lighter guitar. I play mainly E9, but I do a bit of C6 (my favorite being Night Life). I thought long and hard about my choices.

I knew that I wanted a lighter guitar. I did note that new D10s were lighter than my old beast. I saw that the S12 E9/B6 was a viable choice. I was intrigued by the idea of a single tuning containing a lot of possibilities. After more thought (and information from Larry Bell's Web site), I decided to go the Uni route. I figured that if I am going to reduce the weight of the guitar, and have the potential of still playing a 6th tuning, I may as well go for broke and get a Uni.

It took me about a week to get used to the new setup. Yes, there are some different grips to get used to, and I have to raise my 9th string to get that D note that E9 players rely on. But I am happy to report that I made the right choice for ME.

I've been playing my Uni since October, 2005. I really like it and I'm confident that I would replace it with another S12U; should the time arise.

Be advised, your mileage may vary. I didn't have the luxury of trying out a Uni before purchasing. I did it on a leap of faith.

David Doggett · Posted 16 Mar 2007 10:15 am

One more note on the smaller-lighter theme. Serious pros scoff at letting this be a consideration. But for us weekend warriors, it is a factor. I'm lazy. For practices and gigs around town, I don't dissassemble and reassemble. I put my hand through the middle of the pedal rods and grab the pedal bar and hoist my uni on my shoulder. I then go up my basement stairs and down my front steps and stand the guitar up behind the back seat of my mini van (you can also remove the back legs and set one in a large trunk or in the back seat of a car). At the gig, I hoist the guitar on my shoulder, walk in, set it down and am ready to play. Going home I reverse the process, set the guitar down in my basement music room, and I'm ready to practice. I can't conceive of doing that with a D10. Then there's the matter of changing and tuning 12 strings versus 20. For a fulltime pro, such considerations may seem silly. But at age 60 such conveniences sure help keep my energy from flagging in the day-job/family/practice/gig rat race. A uni is just a more care-free fun instrument for me - and yet it offers so much. Smile

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