Cabinet drop modifications? what has worked to reduce drop?

Steve Waltz · From: USA

I have an older guitar made with Walnut Aprons and a Mahogony top. I've read the past posts about cabinet drop but I didn't see what people have tried when they believed that the drop was mostly caused by body flex. I can decrease the drop by pulling up on the apron while engaging pedals.

The guitar has a piece of steel under the guitar where the apron hits the top board but I think it isn't large enough or there aren't enought screws. It also doesn't go from endplate to endplate. The neck is aluminium but I didn't tighten it down with all I could since I didn't want to deaden the wood. The neck stops at the bridge, which is a separate piece from the tuning head. I think this was done to decrease tuning issues related to temperature but there might have been some loss of strength.

The aprons are a bit short, about an 8th, and do not rest against the endplates. They are bolted and touch on the front and back but the edge doesn't. The endplate makes a U around the apron.It is at the bottom of the U where there is no contact. Would a shim help? Should an extra reinforcement go from endplate to endplate? Any other ideas that have worked on other guitars? This isn't a colector piece so mods should be fine. I can compensate with the bar but I would rathar not.

Thanks,
Steve

richard burton · From: Britain

I think you need to tighten up the neck screws

Ray Minich · From: Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra

My first steel was made from a slab of oak bolted to a piece of 3/8 inch thick steel plate. No cabinet drop, but you didn't want to drop the cabinet either...

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

Tightening neck screws will choke some of the tone out of a steel guitar. You want necks screws snug but not torqued. From the older builders that I have talked to most of the cabinet drop lies in the changer and the tail plate. Not the cabinet. Loose tailplate screws being a big contributor. Loose endplate screws also. I've seen the drop nearly eliminated on some guitars by tightening the tail plate and endplate screws.

Mike Wheeler · From: Delaware, Ohio, USA

Also, make sure the tuner frame is good and tight. I've seen that cause detuning. One more thing, if your floor pedals require a heavy foot pressure to activate, it would help to lighten that up as well.
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Best regards,
Mike

Steve Waltz · From: USA

I have made double sure that all of my screws and bolts are as tight as I can get them. All of them except for the neck screws. So I feel like I need something else.

I can reproduce the problem almost exactly by pushing down on the body above the pedal rods.(conversely I can almost illiminate the problem by pulling up on the apron. while using the pedals. If it were the changer wouldn't that not be the case?) Pressure from the pedals being pressed initiates the problem. I don't get much of a drop by putting force on the changer axle so I thought the drop was mostly body movement. I thought the relatively soft wood was the culprit. The body resonates very well so I'm not sure tighter neck screws will kill the tone. Will adding additional support under the guitar decrease resonance? Has anyone added support with success.

The neck and changer area are all one piece. The fingers are mounted on the axle which is bolted ontop of the rear of the neck. The neck doesn't bolt to the endplate. (If that helps find the problem)

Steve

Jackie Anderson · From: Scarborough, ME

Any tightening you do, any increased contact between body parts (e.g. between the ends of the apron and the end plates, where it sounds like shims might be worth trying -- and also make sure that the holes for the screws that join the endplates to the aprons have not become enlarged) and any additional material you attach to the guitar (e.g. full length metal angle inside the cabinet between the underside of the top and the back side of the front apron, or metal straps along the bottom of the front apron and from the middle of that to the middle of the bottom edge of the rear apron, like Emmons uses) are all potentially going to affect the tone and sustain of the guitar -- but not necessarily in a bad way. All those things are reversible, too, so you might as well proceed to try them, one at a time.

Mike Wheeler · From: Delaware, Ohio, USA

Steve, I was refering to the pressure needed to push the pedals...A and B, for instance. When pressing them down you are also pulling down on the middle area of the body. If there's anything you can do to lessen the force needed, then it would help with the "cabinet drop" you're experiencing. Friction could be adding to the problem. I'd inspect the entire pulling train, including the changer, for any signs of binding, or wear, also. The pedal action should be light.
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Best regards,
Mike

Paul Redmond · From: Illinois, USA

Adding screws to the keyhead(s) usually knocks out 1/2 of all so-called cabinet drop. Most steels are assembled using too few to keep the things from twisting and/or squirming on the top of the cabinet.
PRR

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

How much "drop" are you talking about? Is it enough to make the guitar sound bad, or are you just reading a dip on a tuner? (Any variation you can't easily hear as you're playing should just be ignored.)

Steve Waltz · From: USA

The E was moving so much that I could tune it with A and B down and then the E would be out in a no pedals position and then it made it hard to tune the E and F lever. If I hit the E string and rock my A and B or just B I can hear the E move. I see other stings moving on my tuner but they don't seem to bother me as much or they are just easier to adjust for.

Last night I decreased the pressure needed to engage my pedals and that did help some. I tightened down some screws as far as I could and that did help a little as well and there seems to be no tone change. I haven't tightened down the neck screws yet since I have to remove the fret board to do that.

Paul, I think I read earlier that you had added screws to the keyhead of a Miller. Did you add them from under the guitar into the metal of the keyhead? I think there was something about adding metal to the roller bridge so that it went under the neck to decrease forward movement.

Paul Redmond · From: Illinois, USA

Yes, I removed the keyhead and carefully laid out new holes in the body first, drilled them, then 'spotted' them to the underside of the keyhead, drilled and tapped them. It was on that little Miller S-10. That guitar also had the 'E' problem you mentioned. Keep in mind that, to make matters worse, I raise 3, 6, AND 10 on pedal 2, as well as 5 and 9 on pedal 1. . .5 strings instead of just 4. Adding screws knocked out the majority of the keyhead squirm and twist. If the tuning key shafts extend out from the keyhead a lot, when the strings are raised that increase in leverage can bend an 'S' into the keyhead until the change is released. I was going to convert this Miller to keyless, but didn't have the heart to change it. When I converted my BMI to keyless, I used the Sperzel low-profile tuners on the Miller. They look good on it, so I left it alone.
PRR

Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

use a wound 6th string

Bob Littleton · From: Camas, WA

Hi Steve,

That space between the apron and the endplate is intentional. Wood expands and contracts with humidity. Makers of fine furniture also make allowances for expansion when building panel doors in cabinets, etc.
As far as cabinet drop, some pieces of wood flex more than others. I agree with others that a lot can be said for proper set up of pedals and knee levers.

Have fun!

Bill Ford · From: Graniteville SC Aiken

FWIW...I did a test on my CLR,what I did, and the results.

Clamped a small visegrip on the B raise belllcrank. using that to operate the bellcranks, there was no dectable drop, while holding it in place I pressed the B pedal..it dropped. There is a drop in the G#, and E strings when B pedal is pressed no dectable drop using the visegrip. My CLR, and MSA, both S12 have basicly the same type of drop/movement. The CLR has a full 3/4"maple front & back apron, a 5/4" maple top, 3/4" mahogany neck,2"X 1/4" aluminum rail full length across the front and yes, it's heavy.
_________________
Bill Ford S12 CLR, S12 Lamar keyless, Misc amps&toys Sharp Covers
Steeling for Jesus now!!!

Mike Wheeler · From: Delaware, Ohio, USA

Steve, a thought just occured to me. If I'm wrong, I appologize in advance.

I think the method you're using to tune might be causing part of the problem. First, tune the open E note to pitch with no pedals. Continue to tune the rest of the open strings with the E note as a reference. Now, press A+B and tune the changer nuts to bring them to pitch, but don't touch the E. It's your reference note, and you are tuning the A+B pedals to it.

Now you should have your E note in tune with pedals A+B whether they're up or down. Due to cabinet drop, you'll see the E note shift, but the notes within chords themselves should be in tune.

Most all guitars exhibit some drop...some more than others. That's what most of these posts have been refering to. But, if you retune the pitch of your E whenever a pedal is pressed, you'll chase your tail from now 'till forever. You'll have to get used to adjusting your bar position to compensate for the slight pitch movement difference between A+B up or down.
_________________
Best regards,
Mike

Mike Wheeler · From: Delaware, Ohio, USA

BTW, Steve, this whole tuning issue can get very complex. My explanation was just a piece of the puzzle. To learn more do a search for "ET" or "JI" and you'll find more information than you need to know.
_________________
Best regards,
Mike

Steve Waltz · From: USA

Mike,

Thanks for thinking of options for me. You never know where the fix will be.

The guitar in question is a pull/ release so I have to tune pedals down at the keyhead and then tune open strings at the changer except for strings that don't raise or lower. I use the Jeff Newman presets on my peterson tuner. I use the one with the e's a 0 so maybe I should try the old one with the adjustment for cabinet drop.

I know many guitars have cabinet drop. My sho bud professional does but it isn't enough to hear or to be bothered by it. I did realize last night that the sho bud seems to tune up better when I engage both A and B when tuning those raises rather than just engaging only the pedal that I'm tuning. There seems to be more drop when both pedals are engaged so It sounds more in tune when I tune up those raises with both pedals engaged.

I did also just change out my Grover tuners and I have a feeling I didn't secure them well enough since I was worried that the screws would break or strip as they had done on the old open gear tuners. I'm going to tighten those down and see if that helps.
Steve

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

My MArrs has none that I can measure with a standard digital tuner.

One of the reasons I surmise is that there's a piece of angle iron. ( not real thick) across the front apron on the inside that the axles and pedal stops go into. It also stops the tendency of a row of screws in line with the grain from tending to crack like the originals.

Great system!

EJL

richard burton · From: Britain

I use a similar method to Mike Wheeler, except that my steel is a pull-release, so the technique is reversed.

Raise strings 3 4 5 6 8 and 10 to their maximum setting (using both feet on the pedals), and tune them up to pitch.

Release only the pedals/levers that raise strings 4 and 8, and tune those strings to E (with the endplate screws)

Release all other pedals and levers, and you will notice that the 4th (and 8th) strings have raised in pitch.

Use the 4th string pitch as your reference note, and tune the other open strings to that reference note (with the endplate screws)

The upshot is that you will have a perfectly tuned, in pitch, A chord (when pedals A + B are pressed) in the open fret position,
and a slightly sharp, perfectly tuned, E chord when the pedals are released.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Since you've determined that your guitar is suffering from severe "cabinet drop" (and not the other problems that give the same symptoms) , you can either strengthen the cabinet some way (I could give you a half-dozen ideas myself), or trade the guitar for something better.

Though many of the older pull/release models (made primarily in the '60s and '70s) were pretty guitars and had a nice tone, they often left a lot to be desired, mechanically. Many of these guitars had sloppy machining, cheap flimsy parts, and generally poor designs. I've seen stuff like loose tuners, 1/4" cross shafts, .032" galvinized sheet-steel metal strips (used for pedal stops), and worn changers with small axles make playing in tune a nightmare. The cabinet could be stiffened and braced, and any other bad or substandard parts replaced. But when they're very bad, it might be easier to just look for a replacement.

Lately, I've seen some of these old single-finger (pull/release) guitars selling for 2-3 times what they're worth. With the recent upsurge of interest in steel guitar (due to players like Robert Randolph), many cheap 3+1 guitars that wouldn't fetch $250 five years ago are now bringing $500 to $900 from unsuspecting buyers. While there was a time I would have been thrilled to have something as good as a flimsy 3+1 pull/release model, I've grown to realize that though these guitars served a purpose in their day, they're far inferior to the "starter" models now produced.

Sometimes, it's easier to "pitch it" than to try and keep it in pitch.

Steve Waltz · From: USA

Donny,

I can understand your points about some of the older guitars. I have set a few musical goals for myself that I want to work towards so that I can reward myself with a brand new guitar later. I wouldn't mess with this guitar so much if it weren't for the fact that it sounds very good, the guys in my current band think it sounds good too. I think Millers have recieved a poor reputation on the forum but maybe mine is different. Mine also has an aluminum neck so maybe there is a sound difference there. Compared to my sho bud professional, it has better sustain, better clarity and just a cool sound that I like. I don't use or need a complex copendent. It has four pedals and three Knees. The metal parts are just as strong as the sho bud.

I have added the John Coop two hole pullers to a crosshaft so that I could decrease travel for my F lever and they fit and worked great. I have seen other guitars that do have those cheap part problems. When I see people paying $700 to $900 for a maverick, I am surprised. I'd take my Miller any day over that and I think might even put it up against a Pro I. With the prices that Pro I's are going for I think some Millers, for people interested in Vintage guitars, might be a good experiment.

I do think that these old guitars are like old cars. I have a 54 Mercury and it is fun but sometimes getting into your car and having the wippers, heaters and windows work....is a cool thing and a new car does that great without all the work.

I tightened down my new tuners and that seems to have done the final trick to getting the problem repaired enough to the point that I don't hear the issue. I can see it on my tuner but only a bit, just like my sho bud. I'm still going to add a few screws to the keyhead and tighten down a few neck screws and try a few of the tuning ideas above.

Thanks for the help and ideas.

Steve

Billy Carr · From: Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)

I didn't read everything on each post, so I might have missed it but what kind of guitar is being referred to here? Thanks.

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