How many pedals and levers do we really use?

Mitch Ellis · Post by **Mitch Ellis** » 19 Feb 2007 9:04 pm

I play a D-10, with 5 knees and 8 floor petals. Except for two pulls, it's a factory set-up. I never use petal 4 or 7, but use everything else. I don't use every knee lever and every floor petal on every song, but use them as I need them. levers and petals on a steel guitar, are like wrenches in a tool box. A mechanic with $2000.00 worth of wrenches can replace a starter, for example, with only 2 or 3 wrenches. To me, thats how it is with the knee levers and floor petals. You use the "wrenches" you need, to play the music that you want to play. As for as all the petals and knee levers looking impressive, I once got a lesson on that. When I went from a SD10 to a D10, a friend told me "Maaaan Mitch, you look like a real pro setin' behind that steel, rather you sound like one or not!" I took it as a compliment.

Mitch

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 19 Feb 2007 9:16 pm

i have a 3 & 5 set up ....i have yet to even tune the vertical lever

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 19 Feb 2007 9:23 pm

I think I can manage with just 3+2 or 3+3 on E9 for a lot of stuff - in fact my Sho Bud Professional model 6139 is 3+3, and I think there's a lot of great music on that guitar. But most of my guitars have 7+5 or 8+5, and I find them all useful at times. I imagine I could find a use for a heavily loaded setup, but it would take me some time to work the extra stuff in. I certainly don't find that level of complication necessary right now.

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 19 Feb 2007 10:30 pm

I never bought a PSG and accepted what it had on it, for one reason; I've never bought anything but new guitars, except for one about 1½-yrs. ago and that already had the changes on it that I wanted! Otherwise, of all the many PSG's that I've bought new, they were always built to my specific setups. I always study any setup changes in depth before ordering to assure that I get it right and to my liking. Therefore, when I acquire a new instrument, I already know what each change is and what it is used for! On the other hand, I do occasionally misjudge my ability to conquer the beast and have to have it revamped by the builder to a more user-friendly setup! I guess what I'm trying to point out is that I know what each pedal & knee~lever does, before I obtain the instrument! I also realize that a ‘beginner’ doesn't always have the luxuery of experience with so many of the different change variations! . . . To get back on Topic better, I know what each of my changes does and I do use them all at least once during the course of an evening! (Even if it's only to shine a KL, with my knee!)

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 19 Feb 2007 10:49 pm

I can't explain this ‘Double~Post’ either! Sorry ’bout that!

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 19 Feb 2007 11:20 pm

Fred, if this ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZoPTJNmiCw ) could be done on that Maverick, then maybe lots of us would have stuck with our Mavericks and Carter Starters.

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 20 Feb 2007 12:12 am

I for one am not denigrating any player for how many levers he does or does not have. Some play beautifully with none. Some like and can deal with a bunch of em. There so many clever changes that a variety of players use - a lot of which I would like to have but could never get on any one guitar at the same time - but I try to have as many as I can get on there because I like what they all do and they make playing the instrument easier and more fun.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 20 Feb 2007 2:20 am

I have 4+5 on the E9th. I use 4 +5 on the E9th.

It appears the issue isn't so much as having them and not using them, to me it is more of having them and not executing what they are there for or maybe not spending enough time with the ODD pulls to break them in.

Do I use 2nd string raise and 1/2 step lower in every song ? No, of course not, but I know they are there and when the moment is right..execution.

Do I use the 9th string lower every song ? No..but mostly because I forget to use it...

Do I use the 7th string raise ? yes..
Do I use the 4th pedal,? yes
Do I use the Bb lever,? yes, now that I have worked it into my little comfort zone..
Do I use the 1st string raise ? yes but not to a point of overkill.

The point of my reply is NOT to tell you all that I use these things but to give another point of view..the changes are there and if we do not place them into a comfort zone then yes, we will carry around a 4+5 E9th Steel and play with 2+2.

If we do not study and execute these changes which are out of the comfort zone , we will not progress.

Quite frankly, if I could figure out where to place the 6th string Lower, I would add that as well, but on a lever all by itself.Then I would use 4+6...

Am I master at this stuff ? No way, but I am better in 2007 than I was a year ago with these pulls.

Does a Piano player use all 88 keys in every song ?
Does a Guitar player play every chord he knows in every song ?
( not to be confused with every lick they know)

gentlemen and ladies, one of the points to many of these changes is redundency, being able to play phrases up, down across the fretboard in multiple positions, so you don't have to perform fretboard gymnastics to play the phrases that are in your head.

just my take

tp

A. Roncetti · Post by **A. Roncetti** » 20 Feb 2007 4:22 am

I have 4X5 and I have yet to use my vertical lever.

Mike Ester · Post by **Mike Ester** » 20 Feb 2007 6:35 am

Calvin Walley wrote:i have a 3 & 5 set up ....i have yet to even tune the vertical lever

That's because the levers on Mullen guitars never go out of tune.

Kyle Everson · Post by **Kyle Everson** » 20 Feb 2007 8:14 am

Fred Bova wrote:If you were walking past a stage that was setup for a free concert in the park, and there was an old beat up Maverick setup on the side in front of a Crate Keyboard amp would you be as interested in hanging around until the band started playing, or would you just dismiss the player before hearing them based on your judgement of their equipment ?

Unfortunately, this is the case with nonplayers as well. I walked into a bar with a good friend, who is somewhat familiar with steel because I play, and upon looking at the steel player's rig (a touring pro, mind you) said "Man he's only got 3 pedals." I guess it's just a fact of life.

Dean Cavill · Post by **Dean Cavill** » 20 Feb 2007 9:04 am

Hook Moore · Post by **Hook Moore** » 20 Feb 2007 10:31 am

Tony pretty much nailed it for me. I have a setup of 8&8 , I use everything but not everytime and on every tune. Its like reverse on my car, some days I don`t back up much and other days I couldn`t do without it. But I`m always glad its available.
Hook

Mike Wheeler · Post by **Mike Wheeler** » 20 Feb 2007 1:47 pm

I've got 7 and 5 on my universal 12 and now that I've learned a bit more about the B6th, I use them all and plan to add 2 more knees just for the B6th functions. For the E9th part, I use the standard 3 and 5 a lot.

How many pedals and levers one uses, seems to me to be more a matter of style. Lloyd can slay me with 3 and 4. And Tommy can slay me with 8 and 8 (or whatever quantity he has). They both maximize what they have, in their own way, for their own reasons. And they both create more music with what they have than I ever will with the same setup.

As far as appearances go, I don't care what someone thinks. I let my performance speak for itself. (then they really have something to criticize!)

Andy Jones · Post by **Andy Jones** » 20 Feb 2007 2:03 pm

As a relatively new player of 18 months,I'm not really qualified to comment on this subject,but I will give you my opinion.From my assessment of talking to good players,pouring over countless tabs,and listening to many,many songs from the best,I believe that 3X3 on the E9th neck will make just about anything that I will ever need to know.I am certain 3X3 will keep me busy as long as I live.Knowing what to do with those pedals and levers is more important than how many you have.As the old saying goes,"it ain't the size of the ship that makes you seasick,its the waves,brother,the waves!"Mr.Hank Corwin has 3X4 on his s10 Rains and you won't believe the things that he can make that thing do.

ebb · Post by **ebb** » 20 Feb 2007 4:59 pm

tom morrell had no pedals or knees and you wont believe what he made it do

Paul Redmond · Post by **Paul Redmond** » 20 Feb 2007 7:49 pm

On my S-12 Uni I have 8 and 7 plus 2 locks. I use 'em all, but I can get 90% of what I usually play on 10 strings with 2 and 3. One night I did a hopped-up version of Faded Love with the Uni and intentionally used all 12 strings, all 8 pedals, and all 7 knees just for kicks. It's nice to be able to have all the extras at your disposal, but 2 and 3 will suffice on 10 strings for most songs. But then my 10-stringers all have a 'short' Uni tuning on them. . .that's why I need the 3rd lever. Otherwise 2 and 2 would do the trick for most gigs.
PRR

Dennis Schell · Post by **Dennis Schell** » 22 Feb 2007 2:27 am

FWIW, my E9 setup has 3+3 because my buddy who built it said that I'd be able to do pretty much any of the stuff that my "mentor heros" Mooney and Brumley did with Buck Owens using that configuration. I have the "standard" ABC pedal raises and (Emmons) left knee setup and one right lever that lowers my D# to D. I'm really new to PSG and no expert, but so far he seems to have been on track...

It seems to be a good setup for a student at least.....(And he was able to play stuff on it that I'll be very happy to ever accomplish!)

Dennis

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 22 Feb 2007 4:52 am

MP3 below

well, I am no expert here but I am thinking that if we are configuring a Steel to play the way Tom or Ralph did, thats fine, but it may be limiting, and you may be missing out on some very advanced changes or options. Don't get me wrong I am a huge fan of both Tom and Ralph, but it doesn't end there. Thats where it started for many of us.

Here is an MP3 clip of a phrase that I picked up from a very famous OTHER player this morning while working on a new project.

It's not actually the phrase, but how it's executed.

here are 3 exact same phrases played differently , all on the same short MP3 clip below.

the first is a typical A Pedal phrase 13th fret, strings 5A,2,4,2 and 5A. Using only the A pedal.

the 2nd is the same phrase using the full tone 2nd string lower with the A Pedal. Strings 5A,2,4,2 , 2 lower full tone.

the third is the exact same phrase played at the 15th fret..using only strings 5 and 2. string 5, string 5A , string 2 lower 1/2 tone, string 5A , release pedal A. This is the one that I am using for the project, this is the one I pecked for.

3 phrases, the same exact phrases but with totally different different feel and movements.

Don't lock yourselves in a box. Spend time with what those other pesky levers do..Find the redundency.

www.tprior.com/3ex.MP3

www.tprior.com

happy thursday

Ernie Pollock · Post by **Ernie Pollock** » 22 Feb 2007 4:59 am

I have had guitars with up to 6 knee levers, on E9th to be honest, I used the E's to Eb & E's to F, and the 2nd Eb to D probably the most. I really think that I could get by with 2 pedals & 2 levers without a problem.

Ernie Pollock

http://www.hereintown.net/~shobud75/stock.htm

Dennis Schell · Post by **Dennis Schell** » 22 Feb 2007 5:05 am

Thanks for the sound examples Tony, and I get where you're coming from. I hope I didn't leave an impression that I think my setup is all anyone could ever need! (although an accomplished picker can do some amazing things with that simple setup). I like to think that one day I'll reach a point where I feel I need a more "sophisticated" guitar but in the meanwhile 3&3 seems like more than enough! Gee, I'm still trying to get "Above and Beyond" and "Together Again" down note for note and in tune!!!

Thanks again,

Dennis

BTW, as an aside. Ray Morrison who built my steel, once had an old trade in S-10 E9 with 2 pedals and 1 lever come in his shop one time (I can't remember the make) and let me take it home for a couple months after he overhauled it. I got my start on that guitar and LOVED it and begged him to sell it to me. He wouldn't do it saying that I'd be too limited with it down the road with the type of music I like.....

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 22 Feb 2007 5:22 am

Not at all Dennis, I understand exactly what you stated. My comments are to offer an alternative, once you learn those two songs, you should stretch and play similar phrases in other positions on the fretboard. If you think of those extra levers as alternatives rather than extra weight you may view them differently.

A shameless plug here, I have a TAB/CD project I just completed with a focus on the 5 and 8 strings, using the A Pedal, Bb Lever and the two E levers. The melody lines are abundant. The song is Wonderful tonight, take a listen up on my website and I think you will see what I am talking about. learn the Steel and learn the songs, the two go hand in hand.

www.tprior.com

tp

Carroll Hale · Post by **Carroll Hale** » 22 Feb 2007 5:33 am

it is better to have them and not need them....

than to need them and not have them.......

Dennis Schell · Post by **Dennis Schell** » 22 Feb 2007 5:36 am

Tony Prior wrote:Not at all Dennis, I understand exactly what you stated. My comments are to offer an alternative, once you learn those two songs, you should stretch and play similar phrases in other positions on the fretboard. If you think of those extra levers as alternatives rather than extra weight you may view them differently.

A shameless plug here, I have a TAB/CD project I just completed with a focus on the 5 and 8 strings, using the A Pedal, Bb Lever and the two E levers. The melody lines are abundant. The song is Wonderful tonight, take a listen up on my website and I think you will see what I am talking about. learn the Steel and learn the songs, the two go hand in hand.

www.tprior.com

tp

Hey that's some beautiful ride there Tony! I have a request though.....How about next time you back up the camera so I can watch your feet!!! lol

Thanks buddy,

Dennis

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 22 Feb 2007 6:04 am

I don't have any feet..

tp

ps: actually, I don;t have any feet that don't hurt every night

The Steel Guitar Forum

How many pedals and levers do we really use?

I agree with Andy...

Not too many!!

using the pedals..