Mods vs. $value of vintage steels

[Cliff Kane]

Do modifacations hurt the market value of pedal steel guitars?

I know for something like a vintage Telecaster, it would hurt the value as opposed to leaving the guitar stock.

For example, I have a mid-late 70's Sho-Bud LDG with the Super-Pro type of undercarriage and changer fingers (pot metal). Would replacing the pot metal brackets and changer fingers with after-market aluminum parts, and perhaps adding a vertical knee lever and a fourth foot pedal, do anything to the market value of the guitar? I think it would be an awesome hot-rodded Sho-Bud, and it would sound better and be more versatile, but would it depreciate, or would it add value for a buyer or collector?

Any thoughts or experience on this would be great to hear.

Thanks!
Cliff

[David Doggett]

I consider old pedal steels like vintage cars. Most of them, you don't want to leave in junk yard or used car lot condition. You can restore them to stock, or you can customize them with modern parts. Either treatment can enhance the resale value. There may be a very few classics played by some famous steeler that one would want to keep just as it is, with all the wear and tear, as a sort of museum piece. But I notice Bobbe Seymour is refinishing even the historic first few old Bigsbys. In the vast majority of cases it seems like it is very safe to refinish the exterior to the original appearance. Nonstock colors on a classic can diminish the value.

Undercarriage upgrades such as extra pedals and levers are visible and should look as nearly stock as possible. But adding stock appearance levers and pedals enhances the value for most people.

If the unseen undercarriage mechanics were a good original design, any refurbishing should attempt to copy the original parts. But there are some old mechanics that were of poor design and materials, the Sho-Bud Baldwin crossover and Super Pro era potmetal parts are examples. Replacing the original mechanics with modern parts would seem to enhance the value of these guitars, especially for buyers who actually want to play them, as opposed to looking at them.

I guess the bottom line is that it can enhance the value if restoration work and upgrades stay close to the stock look, even if pedals and levers are added that weren't offered on the original. What you don't want to do is create a Frankenstein with unmatched parts. If you are replacing or adding a few mechanical parts, keep close to the originals. If the whole undercarriage needs replacing, then do the whole thing with modern improvements, like a Duane Marrs or John Coop entire new udercarriage.

[Alan Brookes]

Having seen the beautiful workmanship carried out by some of the members, if I had an unlimited budget I would run out and get my instruments refinished and the mechanisms replaced by updated parts. The cost of refurbishing is usually a lot more than the instrument is worth secondhand, so any time a professionally refurbished instrument comes on the market it sells very quickly. It would have to be a very rare instrument to be worth more in unplayable, rusty condition than refurbished.

On the other hand, find someone who knows what he's doing before tampering !

[Bob Carlucci]

I will NEVER understand vintage pedal steel buyers... The guys that buy old pedal steels seem to them want them in new/unplayed cond.

A lacquer checked Bud that otherwise plays perfectly is a tough sell unless you practically give it away.. A pro refinished one sells at a much higher price,originality be damned... as long as it looks new.. believe me guys.. I have sold 3 Buds in the last 3 years, and The only one I got my price for was a minty plain jane 3+2 Pro I... The other Buds were loaded, but they were only in average cosmetic cond, and I had big trouble moving them... they were in perfect mechanical cond...

LOOKS are the bottom line with older pedal steels..

Guitars and amps are 360 degree reversal... Originality is key.. A pristine refin by a top notch pro, fetches all of 50 percent of the same guitar with its original badly battered finish...

I have a theory on this... Many steel plyers have several guitars to play.. Some guys want a piece of vintage "furniture", thus the demand for new looking Buds and ZB type guitars.. Something to keep in the house to look at and enjoy, and play on occassion and maybe record with for a special sound at times...

A lap steel is a steel guitar also.. check the prices on a refin or beat up original... just like guitars.. about 50 percent for the refin as oppossed to original... not so with pedal guitars,if its old but looks new,its golden... bob

[Gary Shepherd]

I buy my instruments TO PLAY music on. If I had a vintage Sho-Bud with 3 and 1 that was worth $1000, I'd sell it for something newer that I could actually play music on. Well, that or invest it in the stock market.

[Mike Howard]

Q "Do modifacations hurt the market value of pedal steel guitars?"

Probably to a "Pure Vintage" type collector.

My kids can do what they want with my "Pro 1" after I'm gone, But since I NEVER plan to sell, I can modify all I want!

(have a Super-Pro, better leave alone just in case)

YMMV

mh

[Geoff Barnes]

I buy my instruments TO PLAY music on. If I had a vintage Sho-Bud with 3 and 1 that was worth $1000, I'd sell it for something newer that I could actually play music on. Well, that or invest it in the stock market.

To me an instrument is a tool.
I have owned some rare birds, that I traded for ridiculously low amounts because I needed a working axe, and just didn’t have time on my side or the dollars to leave it sitting… eg; an original (‘61?) “SG” shaped Les Paul… that had a lot of problems… wobbly neck, tailpiece that pulled it out of tune if I rested my palm on it… all these things could have been repaired if I had dollars to throw at it, but I was broke, young, green, and would have lost the gig if I didn’t get a guitar that could hold pitch for more than 2 songs… this was before electronic tuners, so tuning was also something the audience got to share… kinda killed the vibe of the show.
$200.00 trade-in on a new Les Paul, and I kept the gig… my oldest friends still needle me about it.
My favorite guitar is a post L series ‘68 Strat…( I call it the wife because it has survived a few marriages, and innumerable girlfriends).
My luthier just looks at it and gets that;
“My God, what have you done!” expression.
Because I have owned it for so long, it has gone through many “fads, fashions, and foolishness” with me. The neck is scalloped; it has a brass nut, fat frets, a Washburn locking tremolo unit, has had the body routed out to fit three humbuckers… a new scratchplate installed to accommodate the original pickups when I wanted my Strat tone back…. It was sunburst when I got it, I wore most of that off, and had it resprayed black (when the girl singer I was working with refused to let it on stage anymore!)… the spray job has now worn off and it is VERY evident it is a sunburst with a fake black lacquer job. The back of the neck is a dull grey colour from years of sweat and the action is deliberately set higher than normal so the notes will ring if I punish it.
It sounds amazing and plays like a dream… if the studio went up in smoke, I would grab it before anything else I own… value?
Negligible to a collector, but then again it aint for sale.

My friend (who needles me about the SG/Les Paul) is a collector, and frequently pays for his overseas vacations with axes he finds in his travels, he has an eye for a rare bird, and this makes him happy….It has to be said, that some of the guitars he brings back are pretty ordinary in terms of tone and playability, and most of them are waaaaay out of my league price wise.
I sometimes wonder if prices have become artificially inflated with all this BS, and this hurts the working musician, who could actually put the instrument to practical use… A guitar that is “too precious” to be played with heart is somehow obscene to me… like it has been removed from its original intent.
I have always had to work my butt off for every horn I own…by the time they are in my collection, I have a lot of blood, sweat and tears invested in them, and selling them just seems inconceivable.

[Donny Hinson]

In the vintage collectible market, top dollar is always commanded by pristine, unmodified original instruments. In the "player market", condition and accesories are king. Right now, about the only vintage pedal steel out there with real "collector value" would be the Bigsby. None of the others have escalated enough in price that I would really classify them a "vintage collectible".

For me, that criteria is reached when an item commands over 10 times it's original price.

[Dave Mudgett]

In my opinion - if one is interested in the value of vintage instruments - it's not the current value that one should focus on, unless you're planning to sell it soon. It's the future value that matters.

Of course, it's not possible to absolutely predict the future. But right now, I agree with Donny that most vintage pedal steels are not yet "collectible" in the sense that very collectible vintage 6-strings are. But I think the future may well be good for this. Vintage Bigsbys, certain rare Sho Buds - permanents, fingertips, and even some of the early Professionals, LDGs, and so on, 60s and maybe even 70s Emmons, Franklins, Fender Stringmasters, Rick Frying Pans and Bakelintes, and others - are fairly hard to come by in really nice shape and getting harder and harder to find. If we ever have a true "pedal steel renaissance" - and I certainly hope we do - who knows what might happen.

If true "collectors" ever see steels as a good market, I think that original pieces in good condition will be the coin of the realm, the same as they are with guitars. I would never refinish or irreversibly mod such a piece, if I was truly looking to preserve "collector" value and hold onto it. I think of it like this - it's always possible to refinish or make an irreversible mod on a guitar any time one likes, if one thinks it will improve the value. But it is never possible to go back to the original finish or undo an irreversible mod. When in doubt, I would do nothing until I decided I was ready to sell it. If, at that point, a change helps, OK. But until then, I would not do it.

Now I'm not talking about fixing something that is broken. If something is broken beyond repair, I would fix it as close to original specs as possible. The value may be now lower than a pristine original piece, but that was true as soon as the original aspect broke.

I truly don't understand - again purely from a "collector" or "value" point of view - stripping a perfectly good original finish that has, for example, normal wear or some weather checking - and refinishing. YMMV - it's your guitar, you do what you want. But I wouldn't do it.

[Jim Sliff]

Ditto what Dave said about refinishing. But I do understand Bob's point about the market wanting "pretty" guitars rather than 100% original ones.

I think part of the issue with pedal steels is they do not have a "vintage collector" market like 6-strings. Take for example a '63 Fender Jaguar - it might have a collector value of $3500 or so (and a '63 Strat maybe $10k). On the other hand, a pristine '63 400 might bring $700...maybe 800 if perfect. Pedal steel buyers just do not have the same "vintage" mindset.

Also, the fact that there are SO many versions and "non-standardizations" of steels makes pinning down specific original models difficult.

Guitar collectors don't buy steels - they often don't understand them, and there are few reference materials available (while there are dozens, if not hundreds, of books on vintage guitars). Collectors of vintage steels buy them to play for specific reasons - but since the buyers aren't competing with thousands of other steel collectors (guitar collectors ARE competing with thousands of others) the prices don't get driven up - it's a small market.

I love having an original 1957 Fender guitar (a 1000) I paid $700 for. I always wanted a '57 Tele (I like the necks I've played on other '57's) but I'll never be able to afford one...so at least I got the YEAR part handled!

Sidebar - in the vintage guitar market, certain things are absolute blasphemy and can cut a vintage piece's price in half...or worse:

Refinishing (no matter how bad the original finish looks, you NEVER refinish a guitar)
Pickup changes
ANY holes drilled - for trems, pickups, controls...even screws for tuners cut the value somewhat.
Changing tuners
Changing bridges or other hardware
Refrets that involve widening fret slots.
Installing new decals
Overspraying clears with a fresh coat

Those are just a few.

[Cliff Kane]

Awesome info, guys. Thanks!
Geoff....that sounds like a great Strat....post a picture, dude!

[Mark Durante]

I like the old guitars partly for the history they impart. Refinishing takes away some of the history. It seems there are two types of people, the ones that want everything to be cosmetically pristine and others who appreciate the way they did it in the old days, for better or worse.
You just want an older guitar to function well and sometimes that can be a problem though.

[Bruce Hamilton]

This topic is dear to my heart. I have a Sho-Bud professional prototype that was built for Bobbe Seymour and it has a real rough finish but works flawlessly and and sounds like no other. I have never seen any all pull guitar that sounds this good. The pickups and guitar have a match in heaven. I have been trying to sell the guitar since last fall but because of the finish no one is interested. I have a local fine furniture refinisher who can reproduce the original finish for a very reasonable price. However if I do so the value of the instrument goes in the tank. Talk about catch 22!

[Larry Robbins]

Good question. I think if the modifications made to the inst.
are done with parts that are correct to the specfic model and year it can be a good thing. ie: I have a beautiful 73 Sho~Bud ProII. Built as an 8 & 2 as most were. Last year under advise of our friend Bobbe Seymour I added two more knees. I used ORIGINAL Bud parts that Duane Marrs had in his shop left over from his upgrade business., curved knees and all.
The fellow who installed them said "these parts are used you know" but they were still in like new condition! Exactly what I wanted. I now have a nice looking,great sounding Bud with the barrells behind two hole pullers undercarrige with a more "modern" 4 knee lever set up. Better to play, and hopefully,should I decide to sell at some point, should be easier to sell with the extra two levers. Thankfully I did not have to touch the finish. A few of the usual bar dings between the necks, no big deal...IMHO, I did it no harm.

[Dave Mudgett]

Bruce - I wouldn't lose hope on that red Bud of yours. Believe me, if I had the money right now, I'd buy that thing in two seconds. I think it would be a shame to destroy that original finish. Yeah, it's showing some wear, but to a vintage guitar lover, it's beautiful. I have a '71 or '72 S-10 Professional model 6139, which is just a fantastic guitar, to my tastes. I'm lucky - the finish is in nice shape. But as a player, it wouldn't bother me if it wasn't, and honestly, as long as the price reflects the condition, I'm fine with a worn but original finish.

I agree that you have a quandary. I think Bob Carlucci is right about the hottest market being for "living room furniture" pieces. But I don't think it's clear whether or not refinishing would raise the value as much or more than the cost to refinish. Still, I'd leave it alone if it were mine, but then I'm an ex-vintage guitar dealer. I guess my attitude is that there aren't a lot of nice, original ones out there. To me, that gives them potential for appreciation. But it's a crapshoot, eh?

[Bruce Hamilton]

Thanks ever so much Dave. I guess the thing that makes this guitar a vintage piece is that "distributed by Baldwin" sticker.It would be lost in a refinish. On the other hand I sit behind this guitar every day and when I hear the note separation, the clarity and the even sound throughout every range I realize that even if I don't sell the guitar I have something that just isn't made anymore and is truly inspiring to hear. Quit honestly I just start smiling when I realize that it is more than my hands that are making this sound.

[Larry Robbins]

Looking back over my post and a few others I have to wonder,
what exactly defines "vintage" as it relates to steel guitars?
Any thoughts? I have three Sho~Buds all from the 70's but,
if there are not considered "true vintage" for another 10 or so years, one might not be so slow to customize em'. I bought them to play not to make money. I just dont like to spite the nose right off of my face if I can help it.