Opinion on SD12 Extended E9

Stan Paxton · Posted 16 Feb 2007 3:29 pm

I would like to hear some ideas on moving up to extended E9, as opposed to Univ 12. Have been thinking along these lines lately, and really don't have an interest in learning C6. What maybe could I expect to gain from E9 12 string, what advantages over 10 string? And what are the 2 additional strings in relation to the tuning set-up? I don't seem to be seeing any or many posts on the extended E9, and haven't seen any posted for sale. Would it maybe be just a waste of time & money? Confused

Thanks for any input to help with this. Smile

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Jerry L Miller · From: Sublette, Kansas, USA

In 1990 i had a 12 string extended E9th. i'm not sure any more what the strings were tuned to but all it is is extended bass of the E9th. you would like a U12 or D 10 over a extended E9th 12. I had one GOT rid of it.
jerry Very Happy

Jim Eaton · From: Santa Susana, Ca

I tried E9/B6 and after 25+ years of playing a D-10, it didn't work for me. I then got my 1st Ext E9th guitar and that does work for me! I currently have 2 SD-12's, both set up Ext E9th.
You have a G# on 11th stg and E on the 12th stg. It was like "oh yea, there's those low notes I always wanted to play but didn't have". I drop the 12stg to C# on my F lever to get the root of the A/F combination. I play with some "coffee house" type acoustic players and being able to play stuff with those lower notes really fill's out comping very well. It might not be right for everone, but it sure is for me!
You can see some photo's for my new SD-12 MSA Legend on my website at www.jimeatonmusic.com.
JE:-)>
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b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

I've been playing Extended E9th for nearly 29 years. I'm real comfortable on it. To me, the regular E9th just doesn't have enough low notes, and the E9/B6 goes too low.
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David Doggett · Posted 16 Feb 2007 5:07 pm

After playing an S10 E9 for a few years, I tried an S12 ext. E9. My fingers were always lost down there on the low strings trying to figure out which string to skip or not. Then I tried an S12 E9/B6 universal, and all my problems on the low strings cleared up, because there are no strings to skip. I also liked having the low root for the A pedal minor chord and the A/F major chord. The strings on the bottom are pulled on the A and B pedals and F lever just like the ones an octave above. Also, all the B6 stuff is just icing on the cake. If you want to learn some of it it is there, but otherwise it is not in the way at all. But as yu can see from Jim's post, players that have spent many years on E9 have a hard time adjusting to a uni without a D string.

What you gain with either ext. E9 or a uni is low strings for power chords for rhythm work in rock or blues, or low harmony for jazz and classical music. For traditional country lead, you don't need those low strings.

Ivan Posa · From: Hamilton, New Zealand

I have just had my Anapeg S12 arrive. It is set up as an Ext E9 tuning. After 2 days of solid playing I am becoming comfortable with the 2 extra low strings. Initially I was having trouble with the 10 8 6 grip and also the 5+8 grip mainly because the reference points were different from a 10 string fretboard. I must say the Anapeg is something very special. I am astonished at how much better it is than what I was expecting. Very Happy

Stan Paxton · Posted 16 Feb 2007 7:57 pm

Thanks guys; this is the kind of feed back I need to work this thru, to make a decision or just let it slide (pun intended).
Any more good thoughts or advise out there ? Question

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Albert Svenddal · From: Minneapolis, MN

Stan, the only advantage to the Extended over the Universal is having the 9th string D. If you use it very much, then maybe an extended will feel more natural to you. However, there are two ways to get around not having the D on the ninth string. One way, which Jeff Newman taught, was to raise the 9th string B (in the universal tuning), up to the D note. The other way, which is what I prefer and use, is to lower your 8th string, E down to the D. This accomplishes two functions. First, it gives a natural and beautiful drop to a 7th chord and also then you can play the D and B notes together as strings 9 and 10 on a regular 10 string. Then also having the low B note on the Universal (string 12) is really great for low solo notes when playing E9th and also gives you the full B6th (C6th) tuning if you choose. Albert
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Michael Johnstone · From: Sylmar,Ca. USA

All those E9/B6 9th string issues evaporate when you put a pedal or lever that raises the 9th and 10th strings one and one half steps. This restores the entire 10 string E9 tuning on the first 10 strings replete with the ninth string D and the tenth string B. It also gives some very cool boogie woogie lines,gospel/dixieland turnarounds and Chuck Berry two string rhythm guitar stuff that doesn't exist on any other setup and allows you to play Bill Dogget's "Honky Tonk" just like a guitar player would.Things like that make me pick E9/B6 universal over extended E9. The 6th pedals and the grey areas where the E9 and B6 overlap in very musical ways exceeds the harmonic depth of an extended E9 in a lot of ways and just seems more complete to me.

Ken Byng · From: Southampton, England

Jim Eaton
Your MSA has to be just about the tops for looks. I'm jealous.

Lovely grain on the maple.

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

Mike Perlowin* and Doug Livingstone (posts here as Earnest Bovine) both play technically complicated, note-for-note classical pieces using extended E9th tuning* - I'm not aware of anybody being able to accomplish this on C6th or U12 yet, though I think it's entirely possible. If they don't pitch in here, you might want to e-mail them directly and ask them why they chose that tuning to approach such demanding music. It could be simple familiarity, or specific technical advantages, or a combination. There is certainly far more U12 instructional material around now than there was when Mike and Doug started playing, a few years back.... Smile

*Edited - (Oops, guess Mike doesn't. Oh well, maybe Doug does, at least till he posts here.... Confused

)

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Doug actually plays them. I only construct them on tape by playing one and 2 notes at a time and editing them together. Unlike Doug, I can't play any of that stuff live.

I don't play country as good as Doug does either. Doug (as everybody who heard him in Mesa last month will attest) is a brilliant player. I'm not bad, but I'm a long way from being in in his league.

I play a U-12. Always have, since day one (except for those first 3 months of Sho-Bud Maverick hell.) I always figured that given the choice between the D string and a whole second tuning, the Universal would be more versatile and allow me to do more stuff.

Like Albert, I get the missing D note by lowering the 8th string. I do this on the same knee lever (RKR) that raises my 2nd tring, which I tune to C#, to D. I raise the 2nd string to D# on a separate lever.

The only things I've lost are the ability to play the D and E strings at the same time, and either the 4 note diminished chord, or the change Herb Steiner invented, which is to raise the 8th string to D# on the E to G raise, which gives the first 6 notes of a major scale when used in conjunction with the A pedal. (Herb's change eliminates the possibility of the 4 note diminished chord, which requires the D note while the 8 string is raised to F.)

I can picture some real advantages to Herb's invention, but I am unwilling to sacrifice the entire B6 tuning for it.

I have some changes on the bass strings so I can get fill chords in the E9 side of my tuning, which is what I use 99% of the time.
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Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

Simply the extra bass. 12-str over 10-str because it seemed odd to have a 1-1/2 octave compass when I could have a 2 octave guitar.
My str. 9 is C# because I don't use a dom. 7th much.
It is raised to D on RKR.
10 (B) is lowered to A on P1 along with 6th G#->F# (kind of like a half-Franklin).
Thus, I have a mIV, V, and IV root available at all times.
Now I have to learn to use those strings.
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b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Stan Paxton · Posted 17 Feb 2007 8:22 am

Thanks to everyone for your good response Very Happy

A lot of that sounds pretty complex to me, at my level of expertise. It's a lot to think about, and would be expensive to do trial & error. Maybe I ought to just go with a Franklin pedal on SD10, and wait awhile....thanks, again Exclamation

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Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

I really like having the extra bass strings on E9 - at least down to the guitar's low E. I'm a guitar player too, and I just expect that low E, at least, and I use them. So either and 11 or 12-string Ext E9 or 12-string Universal makes sense to me. If one was truly not interested in a 6th tuning, I think just Ext E9 makes perfect sense. I guess that's my answer to your specific question, from my point of view.

But if one is interested in the 6th tuning, I am in a quandary. I generally play a Universal E9/B6. But as b0b suggests, I do sometimes miss the string 9 D, its associated root grips, and lever changes - especially the D->C# change. So another option would be a D11/10 or D12/10, where the front neck would be Ext E9 and the 10-string neck would be C6. This would, in many ways, be the best of both worlds. I'm sure there are plenty of Universal players who disagree. Smile

Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

I played the E9/B6 Universal for almost twenty years after playing an extended E9 for a few years before that. A little over 3 years or so ago I'd heard of some C6th players dropping the low C string and adding a D note between the C and E in the middle of the tuning. I thought I'd try that so I dropped my low B string and put a C# string in position 9 with the G# and E moved to the 11th and 12th slots. Basically it's an extended E9 with the 2nd and 9th strings tuned to C#. I don't know if it's correct terminology or not but I call it my E9/6th tuning. I really like it a bunch and and use every string on the setup at every gig. There's nothing wasted. I still have all the B6th changes in a different manner. The "normal" II7 pedal that lowered the 7th string and raised the 11th and 12th is now just lowering the 7th string to F and raising the low E to F. My old "boo-wah" pedal now lowers the 9th string C# to C, the 10th string B to A# (Bb), and the low E to D# (Eb). I have a lever which raises my 2nd string C# to D and D# and my 9th string C# to D. Now with the E's lowered I don't have that D note to work around. With the C# note on string nine it does the same thing as the F# in the E9 tuning which is a II in the scale starting on the B string. This is a great setup and I'm surprised that some others aren't doing it. Everytime another steel player sets down to my guitar they're amazed at what's on there and what can be done with it....JH in Va.
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Cliff Kane · From: the late great golden state

This is such an interesting discussion. I don't have a solid-enough grasp on theory to wrap my head around some of the stuff that gets talked about in these threads (I'm learning a lot from these discussions!), but I remember asking about going with a 13-string universal tuning so that one could restore the D string, and people felt that it would get in the way and complicate the design of the universal tuning. I think that a D10 will suffice for comping lower register stuff--and covers blues and jazz--when one doesn't need a more signature country sound. I'd like to hear how many people jump back-and-forth between the necks during the same tune, to, in effect, extend the 10 string E9 neck with the lower range of the 10 string C6 neck, or visa-versa. I've messed around with this a little at home with my D10 by just jumping necks and flipping the selector switch, or setting the switch for both necks, and it seems like a doable technique. I know it's not as fluid as playing on only one neck, but why not do this? Is there a problem I'm not seeing? Who does this well?

Great thread!

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

David Doggett · Posted 17 Feb 2007 4:17 pm

What Mike just said. Also, in B6 mode there are many ways to get everything b0b mentioned with the D root, particularly using the next to lowest string as the root, which makes it an Emaj7 9 jazz neck. I don't know that either way can be considered superior or inferior, they are just different, and we get use to one way or the other. It is true that when I switched from 10-string E9 to ext. E9 then uni, I was not a big user of the D string, either as a 7th or as a root. I do know that the uni seemed to have simpler grips on the lower strings in E9 mode, and the B6 mode opened up a whole world that wasn't there on ext. E9. It was important to me that I have the classic E9 on the upper strings, and the classic 6th neck on the lower strings - those both seem to be so tried and true that I definitely wanted the essentials of each.

A final factor which has me pretty solidly wed to a uni tuning was my discovery of over two octaves of minor scale and pentatonic scale notes when the A pedal raises the low B to C#. This is like a whole new neck for minor/pentatonic based blues, rock and jazz. That whole range with the low minor root on the bottom is simply not available on E9, ext. E9 or C6. It is strictly unique to a uni. I live there on whole songs.

By the way, I play some classical stuff on uni. I am not in the league with Earnest technically, who plays ext. E9, but I have played around with it enough to think the uni is capable of as much classical stuff as an ext. E9. And for me the uni has an edge for classical because of the C#m mode. I'm working on learning digital recording, so I can post some interesting examples.

Michael Johnstone · From: Sylmar,Ca. USA

One only has to listen to the LP "Classical Steel" by Marshall Hall to see what can be done on an E9/B6 U-12.

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Actually, Marshall Hall used a modified form of Reece's Bb6 tuning.

Marshall (who must be well over 90 at this point) is another player who deserves far more recognition than he has received. IMHO his recording of Chopin's Nocturnes from the album Michael mentioned (sadly the only one he ever cut) is one of the nicest pieces of music ever recorded by a pedal steel guitar.
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b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Scott Swartz · From: St. Louis, MO

I couldn't live without the D string, important for E9, A6, B6 and G6 (if you have the G#-G lower which I use a ton) open chord forms. Also for pentatonic scales when lowered to C#, in combo with B pedal, E-D#, and B-A# levers.
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Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

Thanks, b0b, I'll give it a try.
Still looking at the 2d and 9th strs. and the D lever.
Lots of good suggestions and reading here.
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