Stringmaster Tuner Problems - Solutions

Whit Snell · Post by **Whit Snell** » 7 Apr 2006 7:42 pm

Thanks to George Ghrun who sent me tkm1957@aol.com with a note that he can repair Stringmaster tuners. Terry emailed right back with this information:

"I can repair the Stringmaster machines. I need to see them but usually only the gear needs replacing. $50 per gear installed. If the worm needs replacing then $100/worm & gear installed. I do not have tuner buttons (lollypop); if yours are intact that's great. Thanks, Terry Mueller P O Box 1152 Carbondale, IL 62903"

I plan on sending two banks that need repair. Now, in the meantime if you want to fix a stripped tuner on a Stringmaster or if you need a fix while you send your original tuners off for repair, here is what I came up with, . First the problem. The first picture shows an original Stringmaster tuner bank with the bad gear. The worm and lollypop are fine. Since that gear is stamped on to the shaft I have no idea how anyone could remove it and replace it but apparently Terry can.

The next picture is a photo of Allparts.com part number TK 0875. They come a set of six so you need two sets and you will have 4 spare tuners. I paid $40.00 for mine at my local guitar shop, Spacetone Music. The tuner on the left is an unaltered one. The tuner on the right is how they look after grinding and fitting. Both ends must be ground as well as the overall thickness must be reduced by flattening out the concave and grinding a bit off the tabs - they are very thick. Problem is once these are all nice and fitted you find they are slightly thicker than Kluson and don't fit into the well. Once they are ground they fit very snug - just right.
<img src="http://www.armstrongproject.com/fix/2.jpg" width="400" height="267" alt="" border="0" align=left>

 

And here is a tuner pan with all new keys ready to be installed. If one strips out again, then it will be very easy to fix. I am planing on pulling the working originals from a couple of guitars I play and putting them in a safe place and replacing them with the Allparts 0875 keys, just so as to not cause more wear on the tuners. I know a lot of Stringmaster owners have been frustrated with this problem. I have also written to Kluson and Allparts requesting that they manufacture Stringmaster banks of keys. Would be very easy for them to do since they basically have everthing with the 0875. Perhaps others could write AllParts@AllParts.com as well. I don't think we will ever get anywhere with Fender.

Hope this helps anyone with tuner problems.

Whit Snell

Mark White · Post by **Mark White** » 7 Apr 2006 7:52 pm

Thank you Whit. A lot of useful info!

Whit Snell · Post by **Whit Snell** » 10 Apr 2006 10:35 pm

I have had the new keys on my Stringmaster in place for a few days now and I wanted to comment on how great they work. If you are use to gritting your teeth slightly when you go to tune a string or even using a tuning crank to get more leverage, you will be very pleased at how effortlessly these AllParts keys work. I use to think it was the strings or tension that made these keys hard to tune, but now I realize that Stringmaster tuners in many cases are just not that great. The brass gears seems to really be a problem and contribute to the roughness of the tuners.

The grinding process to make the Allparts keys fit is not hard. It takes perhaps three hours using an inexpensive bench grinder and you can make them fit perfectly if you take your time and check each one as you grind. I suggest putting a piece of plastic hose (gas line) over the tuner shaft so you don't accidently scuff it with the grinder.

Whit

Andy Sandoval · Post by **Andy Sandoval** » 11 Apr 2006 6:26 am

Whit, I bought a 70's Fender Deluxe 8 that came with separate fender tuners instead of the four on a strip that you usually find under the pan. I had to use a strip of felt along the back of the tuners on each side to make for a more snug fit when installed and they worked just fine. I finally found some original four on a strip Stringmaster tuners on eBay and replaced them though because the first tuners had some flaking on the chrome.[This message was edited by Andy Sandoval on 11 April 2006 at 06:56 PM.]

Whit Snell · Post by **Whit Snell** » 11 Apr 2006 6:38 am

Andy, from what you have said I would suppose that the routings where the pan goes could all be different. In some cases you might need to grind and in others you might need to pad. In either case you still will need to grind the length. The important thing is to realize that since the tuners are not mounted on a strip they rely on the body of the guitar to hold them in place and provide a snung fit. Of course it's all hidden so as long as it looks good on top and works well it won't matter what you have to do underneath. Of course I would prefer to have nice working orrignals but I just got tired of that search. - Whit [This message was edited by Whit Snell on 11 April 2006 at 07:43 AM.]

John Lang · Post by **John Lang** » 11 Apr 2006 7:43 am

Hi Whit, this is good information. I experienced the same problem with one of the tuners on my 1953 T8 just yesterday.

My problem is that the tuning pans on the oldest guitars are entirely different from what I see in your photos. There is no strip of 4 tuners, instead there is a lollipop\worm mount assembly that is welded (soldered?) to the inside of the pan that engages the gear on the tuning axis. This joint is subject to metal fatigue over the decades and fails when tensioning the string, causing the gears to strip.

Do you have any experience with these? Can this be repaired as well?

Dan Sawyer · Post by **Dan Sawyer** » 11 Apr 2006 10:46 am

John, i have the pans like yours. All of the tuners still work pretty well, but one of them came un-welded from the pan. I finally found someone who says they can spot weld it back.

John Lang · Post by **John Lang** » 11 Apr 2006 11:08 am

Thanks Dan. We're talking '53 or '54, right?

Yep, that's what happens on these. The spot welds fatigue over the years, then let go under string tension. The gears strip as a result. So I actually have two problems, if I can find someone to re-attach the mount properly, I need to find a replacement for the little round gear. The worm seems to be fine.

Is this what you are dealing with? Can you e-mail me so we can get off this thread and discuss further?

Whit Snell · Post by **Whit Snell** » 11 Apr 2006 12:44 pm

John,

I also have a Dual Pro with the older style tuners that is about one string change from failing. One gear slips now but will catch enough to allow it to be tuned. Looks like this is another whole project to try and figure out. Perhaps Terry can fix these as well. Once again, it would be nice to replace all the tuners with new and be done with it if there is something that will work. - Whit

John Lang · Post by **John Lang** » 11 Apr 2006 1:22 pm

Hi Whit,

Yes, I had some e-mail with Terry today but have yet to get him on the phone. I either need to send him some photos or send the pan assembly to him to evaluate.

I agree with your other point too. Been thinking ever since yesterday if there is a way to re-manufacture this thing with modern tuners and be done with it once and for all.

All I can think of right now is to try and find a new helical gear, and re-spotweld the bracket for the worm to the inside of the pan. If I get that far, I have 23 more ways for this thing to fail the way I see it.

Whit Snell · Post by **Whit Snell** » 11 Apr 2006 4:17 pm

Terry Mueler is out of town until next week and he emailed me and ask me to wait until next week to send tuners, so you may not be able to reach him by phone or email. In the meantime, lets all work tword a solution. These expensive guitars are unplayable with bad tuners. Something has to be figured out. I am assuming he would replace the brass gear with a steel one and we won't have the wear and replacement problems on ones he fixes. - Whit

Rick Collins · Post by **Rick Collins** » 11 Apr 2006 7:16 pm

Analyzing the original problems with the very early Stringmaster tuners, I believe the basic problem stems from developing too much vertical play in the shaft on which the worm gear is mounted. This ulimately causes a widening of the mesh with the pinion. That they are brass, compounds the wear problem.

The two small studs holding the vertical shaft are separate small pieces braded on the back-side of the small soldered plate and they loosen over time.

Most other tuners have these mounting studs formed from the plate with a 90 degree bend when they are stamped. This way they are more rigid and hold the gears to a closer mesh tolerance.

Don't you think so?

Rick[This message was edited by Rick Collins on 11 April 2006 at 08:18 PM.]

John Lang · Post by **John Lang** » 12 Apr 2006 3:40 am

Rick, you're 100 percent right. It is a matter of tolerance. Too much play existed in the tuners "out of the box", and as the mounts deteriorate over the years, it only gets worse.

As I mentioned, I was astounded when I got the guitar last month and saw the original design of this mechanism. I'm on board with you guys to work toward a solution with Terry or whoever can help us with this, and will do whatever I can to help.

Whit Snell · Post by **Whit Snell** » 13 Apr 2006 4:35 am

Check out these Grover tuners. This is the closest I have found to a tuner that might fit 1st generation Stringmasters and Dual Pro's (with modification). Notice the replacement buttons also available and the removable gear. Part number for the ones I bought in photo is H97-18N - note single hole on shaft.
http://www.grotro.com/catpage3.html

Note website does not work correctly for page selection. You must manually remove the second www from the url. - Whit

[This message was edited by Whit Snell on 13 April 2006 at 05:39 AM.]

John Lang · Post by **John Lang** » 13 Apr 2006 5:00 am

Great research work Whit. This could be what we're looking for, since the width of the tuner housing is the determining factor of what will work or not. Did I understand that you ordered these and are going to try to retrofit?

I guess my next questions would be, how would these attach to the inside of the pan, assuming they clear the sides of the cavity? Would you have to release the spot welds/solders on the existing hardware to remove them, keeping the heat to a minimum to avoid discoloring the chrome?

I'm very optimistic after seeing this.

Whit Snell · Post by **Whit Snell** » 13 Apr 2006 7:06 am

John, there is a sign in a restaurant down the street that says "It was a brave man who ate the first oyster". Not so sure I want to be the first, but I might. I would need to order more keys since I just have 6. If the tunning buttons were period correct I would do it for sure. It would go just like you said, tourching the metal and all. The keys I bought locally just have one hole in the shaft just like Fender. The ones on the catalog page have two. I don't see the exact part number I bought in the catalog. - Whit

Wayne Cox · Post by **Wayne Cox** » 13 Apr 2006 8:39 am

WHIT, thanks for sharing this info and for getting this thread started. It has already helped me a lot! THANKS! In the same spirit, I'll share this tidbit: Some of the 70's stringmasters had single keys instead of in-line keys. The lubricant used in them dries out with age and turns to a gummy resin-like substance which causes the worm and gear to feel as though it is stripped. You can hold the string shaft in a vise and carefully pry the gear cover off. Then lubricate it with a good quality heavy grease. Then, using the vise,carefully press the cover back on. The machine will often function better than new!
~~W.C.~~

John Lang · Post by **John Lang** » 13 Apr 2006 10:01 am

Whit, yes, the thought of taking a torch to an irreplaceable part on a priceless guitar makes me just as queasy. I wonder if something like this would help? Anyone have experience with this type of thing?
http://www.contenti.com/products/soldering/510-806.html

Thanks to Ian Campbell for this info...

John Lang · Post by **John Lang** » 17 Apr 2006 11:26 am

Whit, please check your e-mail. I forwarded some photos of the problem tuner to both you and Terry.

Whit Snell · Post by **Whit Snell** » 18 Apr 2006 6:07 am

John Lang sent me these very detailed photos of his 53' Stringmaster. First thing I notice is there is no slot to slide the tuner on to the pan. Obviously, the lollipop button is going to have to be removed. My friend who makes jewelry suggests placing the pan on an iron to heat the entire assembly before attempting to spot braze to remove the solder. Also note the gummy resin-like substance Wayne mentioned. I spoke with a manager at Grover Tuners and he told me the buttons on the H97 tuners are not removeable, they are pressed on and he would not recomend anyone try. He also said the single hole H97-18N and replacement buttons (held on with a screw, not pressed) are available at WD Music and Allparts. Anyone found replacement gears? Looks like Johns would not be that hard to remove, held in place with a screw - Whit

Tuning Pan Detail Photos from John Lang's 1953 Stringmaster 
[img]http://www.armstrongproject.com/problem/jl4.jpg" width="400" height="300" alt="click this part for hi-res photo" border="0" vspace=15> [This message was edited by Whit Snell on 18 April 2006 at 07:45 AM.][This message was edited by Whit Snell on 18 April 2006 at 07:47 AM.]

Rick Collins · Post by **Rick Collins** » 18 Apr 2006 3:30 pm

The buttons are removable and quite easily. I have had them off.

It helps to hold a soldering iron to the side of the button. Pull the button off with a needle-nose pliers.

John Lang · Post by **John Lang** » 10 May 2006 7:33 pm

Whit, I have some good news to report on this subject. Terry Mueller was able to not only re-solder the loose bracket on my pan, but also had a replacement round gear for the one that was stripped.

My thanks to you for directing me to Terry, and also to all who offered advice on how to solve this problem, especially Ron Victoria.

Whit Snell · Post by **Whit Snell** » 10 May 2006 8:17 pm

John, that is great news. I would love to see photos if you have any and would also like to hear what Ron had to say. I have at least one tuner bank that I will send to Terry. I replaced all the tuners on a very nice Stringmaster Tripple with the All-Parts and I have to tell you they work great. So much smoother than the originals, and I now have the originals in a safe place where they won't get any more worn and I can put them back on at any time. Never found a replacement that would work on the old style Fender Dual 8's. - Whit

John Lang · Post by **John Lang** » 11 May 2006 12:52 pm

Whit, yes, very good news. I was relieved right after talking to Terry on the phone the first time. As you said, there is no way to install any type of modern tuners on this guitar without doing something really "out there", so repair was my only real alternative.

Ron Victoria is a metallurgist who teaches metal shop in a school. He is very knowledgeable about spot welding, soldering, techniques, etc. After talking to him, I was convinced that the broken piece could be re-welded, but didn't know where to turn for the replacement gear until you led me to Terry.

I was so anxious to put the pan back in the guitar and string it up when it came back, I didn't stop to take a photo of Terry's work. If you look very closely at the "before" photos, you can see where hairline cracks develop in the solder joints over time, and just wait to let loose on you. He strengthened these just in case, and those babies are so tight and smooth now, better than new.

So now I'm thinking about pulling the other two pans, and sending them off to have the same treatment. That way the guitar can live on for another half century.