Players' Sound: What you Hear vs. What is Heard

[Tom Bradshaw]

To my good friends Joe and Barry: You are surely speaking in jest. Indirectly, it is the audience that pays your wages. Why spite those you hope will return, spend their money and compliment the management for hiring such a good "sounding" band? You would surely prefer their telling you that the music sounded good, rather than saying they weren't coming back because your sound sucked. Don't you thrive on compliments and are crushed by put-downs? Musicians are entertainers, either to themselves or to others. If you only play for your own enjoyment, hole up in your music room and never expect to be paid for the talent you worked your @#$ off to perfect. You two were kidding, weren't you? ...Tom

[Bari Smith]

I'm with Tom on this one...If ya go in with the attitude"screw the audience"Stay home ...let somebody else reap the applause!A good buddy,now deceased,used to always say just before hitting the stage"Remember boys we are here to entertain,not be entertained!"I agree that if I'm not a happy camper..it will show...but I'm gonna be a happy camper!That is one of the few things I can control!!

[Barry Blackwood]

OK Tom, my tongue was in my cheek, but only slightly. I always played for the satisfaction of whoever was my bandleader in particular, and the rest of the band in general, on any given night.
Luckily, I had a lot of good (bandleaders,) otherwise, I'd have gone insane 40 years ago trying to please the rest, which mainly consisted of A-hole clubowners and drunks neither of whom would know whether you sounded good or not even if their lives depended on it ....

[Eric West]

Yup Barry.

First, if you want the gig, you can't play in a manner that the bandleader or band will fire you. Not for very long anyhow. I know that very well from personal experience.

I've had a couple instances where people that were even "close professional peers" came in and either vocally demanded that I turn it up, or mix it one way or another. Also one or maybe more that thought I was too loud, shrill, and even that I should put my amp somewhere else.

All I wanted them to do was go away, and I never cared if they ever came back.

It wasn't what the people that hired me wanted, and for the time, I wanted to work with them on the jobs they had booked.

I did.

They got a divorce, and I got into another band that I liked even better, and we're working nearly every weekend still.

Some of the things I am allowed to do, I really like, like being able to play a loud and twangy telecaster. Thin, Shrill,with heavy strings, and a good "burton buzz".the way they REALLY used to play them. Got a couple/three clubs too where the people REALLY LIKE IT.

We've been in Moose Lodges where people would come up and do everything but spit on you to get you to "turn it down" so they could talk at a table right in front of the PA, only to have half of the large hall leave and remark on their way out that they could "hardly hear the band".

No, there's something sick about people that try and please everybody.

I've had that illness, and I got better.

I never stopped working either, and I didn't have to play with bands that I didn't want to work with, and always the highest paying, if not the "coolest" clubs in my area.

There's a mixture of things that "work" or "don't work" for every situation.

Trying to apply the exact same amp placement, miking, stage volume, EQ mix every time you play only works if you work in ONE PLACE.

There's nothing wrong with that, to be sure, but it's not for everyone.

IMHO, it's best to learn to be able to change to meet each situation, as best you can, so you can feel like you've really "played the gig". Especially if you don't have a "Sound Man" on your payroll.

You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself. Lala la la la... ( great steel lick..)-Ricky Nelson-

EJL

[Alvin Blaine]

If ya go in with the attitude"screw the audience"Stay home ...let somebody else reap the applause!A good buddy,now deceased,used to always say just before hitting the stage"Remember boys we are here to entertain,not be entertained!"

If it's with the right players and you hit that spot where your tone is right and everyone on stage is groovin, and you start to get goosebumps because you know your having a 'musical moment'. It's at those times that the audience is the ABSOLUTE last thing on my mind, in fact I could care less if they were even there.
Sometimes I close my eyes and pretend they arent even there and just play music, because when the music feels right the last thing I want to see is a bunch of lame line dancers and drunks!

When those "musical moments" do happen, the people who really care and appreciate music know, and they will respond and thank you for it. As for the others I agree with Joe "screw the audience".

It's like the first rule in psychology "If you can't please yourself, then you can't please others"!

[David L. Donald]

If you have no sound man, and are not micing through the PA,
putting your amp close to your head is going to leave you
little sense of it's stage balance.

If you place your amp parrallel to ( F to B),
and about the same distance and height, back stage
as the lead player is from HIS amp,

ie. you and he are parrallel
and your amps parallel behind you also,

you will have about the same level, dispursion
and frequency disapation as the lead player,
since you two are (typically) the main soloists,
this gives you parity in room volume and tone production.

Other wise you are not playing in reference
to the competeing sounds in the room.

If you hear both of you and the speaker sound has time
enough to dispurse and blend with the band, then you will
likely get closer to a the ROOM's sound at your head.

If it sounds jumbled being that far back... SURPRISE,
you just found out what you sound like out front.
Of course some stages don't allow that...

Another trick I use is;

Get a chord doubler adaptor or 2 and just
haul the steel out in the middle of the space during sound check,
and tweak your amp with a quick trot back to the stage.
(heck... bet you can use the exercise to)

As a bass player I often use a radio guitar rig for
sound check so I can tune to the room.
Anyone playing some Boowha C6
would benifit from this same technique.

Get ya butt way out front for a song or two during sound check.
You don't even need the pedal, just extend from the pedal on stage,
then teak until you are happy with the sound.

Any soundman who doesn't take a listen to your stage
sound close to your head vs the other players ,
before deciding how to mix you needs to be replaced.
Or at least asked to have a listen to your sound relative
to what YOU think is right in your listening position.

Not hard to do, and better than guessing.
If he can HEAR whay you are looking for,
he can at least try to get that in the room.
But he is less likely to if YOU don't nicely prompt him.
Also have him set your level relative to
your AND the lead players loudest SOLO levels.
He then learns how loud you want to be.
Then it's up to you to decide how loud to play during other sections.

I always do a stage walk through to hear the band as THEY DO,
before finalizing my live mixes.

That doesn't mean he must duplicate your stage sound exactly,
because YOUR stage sound is added to the PA sound in the room,
and they must be blended together for your total BAND sound.

I like stands, but they also throw your sound off axis to the audience,
just like micing from the side or dead center.

If you hear it dead center because it's angled upwards,
everyone else hears it from off axis, hence reduced highs
and muddiness.

If you hear it off axis, like on the floor and too close to you,
then you compensate to YOUR ear
and shrill out the listeners ON axis...

I prefer my top suggestion.
If the band lines up all amps the same distance back
and all line up parallel up front they ALL hear about
the same balance entering the room.

If you can't,
then pull your steel out front for sound check
or pay a soundman... or BOTH.
Cain't hurt none!

[David Doggett]

This DLD completely agrees with the other DLD. There are two completely different situations - miiked and unmiked. Many of the posts above don't mention which situation they are talking about, so it is hard to know what is happening.

If I am not miked, then I alone am completely responsible for my sound out front. The only way I can get that right is to have my amp as far away as possible, and not pointed at my head. I want it in the back line with the lead and bass amps. Hopefully it can be raised to clear stage objects. And it should be pointing straight out at head height for the audience at the center of the room, not tilted to the ceiling or slanted toward me. With the proper arrangement in the back line, if I can't hear myself, neither can anyone else, so I should play louder. If my amp is too close to me and pointed at my head, I sound fine to myself, but people complain they can't hear me. If I play loud enough to project out front, I am so loud to myself I can't hear the rest of the band. I have been dissappointed at plenty of performances because the steeler had his amp right behind himself pointed up at his head and I couldn't hear him out front. As for the EQ, yes I am listening off axis, but I'm also listening to everyone else off axis. If I get my EQ to sound the way I want it to in relation to the other players, it should sound good out front. Also, DLD's trick of playing out front is good. Even if you can't do this at every venue, at some point at a practice or whatever you should set your amp EQ while playing audience distance in front of it, facing it. That should generally be your baseline EQ. Then you can trust that when you set the amp up on stage nearer to yourself and behind you and off axis, the baseline settings will sound right out front, even if it doesn't sound perfect to you on stage.

If I am miked, then I'm completely at the mercy of the sound guy. I still like to have my amp far away from me in the back line, but can tolerate it a little closer, because I know my level can be adjusted. But I still want to get the stage balance right, and project a good mix to the first few rows, regardless of the PA. That way the sound guy doesn't have to work as hard, and has less room to screw things up. If I have a personal monitor, I want it to have the same mix that is heard out front. If the sound guy has done his job right, I'll be able to play my level correctly with my volume pedal. If he has me too loud or too soft, I can to some extent correct that with my volume pedal. And when he asks me to play something for him to get my level, I always play my volume pedal back where I usually have it when I attack my notes. If they recognize that I use a volume pedal, they will sometimes ignorantly ask me to play with it all the way down, thinking that is my maximum volume. But I never play with it like that, so regardless of what they ask, I give them my normal attack volume.

[Simon Stephenson]

Hi there,

I may be new to steel playing but I have been playing in bands since I was 14 and I've also been a professional sound man.

What I have always done in bands is get one person to go to various parts of the hall and listen to the overall balance of all the instruments. If there is no sound man, you can get a (trusted) accompanying person to do it (wife, girlfriend, mate or even barman). Alternatively, the singer can go out and listen to the instruments (without vox) and get the balance right and then balance the vocals in after that (using a long mic lead).

The point is, it should be normal for you to get feedback about your sound before each and every gig. To some extent you need to live with a slightly worse sound on stage if that is necessary because you are all working towards an end product. It can be hard to balance on stage monitoring and front of stage sound but 10-20 minutes spent doing this can be very awarding for both the band and the audience.

[David L. Donald]

The point is, it should be normal for you to get feedback about your sound before each and every gig.

AND not get touchy when someone comes up and says
your ideal sound ON stage ain't working in the room...

They likely
a) are trying to help.

b) have a quite different vantage point from
which to give you feedback about YOUR sound.

c) are unlikely to be just doing it for the yucks.
Why come up and risk bad feelings from you
by telling you something you likely will NOT like to hear,
if they don't care enough to let you know they hear a problem.

If another steeler says you don't sound good in the room,
it's LIKELY because they have been trying to listen to you
and can't.

Of course use your judgement about the source.

[Steve English]

Scenario: Small (200-250 persons) honky-tonk, six piece band, set-up stage left to stage right: lead guitar, rhythm guitar, drums on riser, elec. keys @ center stage, bass guitar, steel guitar. Front man (band leader) on keys and controls PA…. Front man can’t stand to hear anyone else but himself . Sitting at my steel, my chest is about same height as the dancer’s heads on the dance floor (always packed). After a couple of frustrating weeks attempting to develop a blend that pleased the band leader, the crowd, and myself with the amp on the floor, I stumbled onto something I had never tried before; I placed my amp on a chair to my left (opposite side of the band leader) and in-line with ( and almost touching) my shoulder. This put the amp about head level to the dance floor people, with my ears even with the side of the amp. As a result I could get the high end and volume where it would cut through the crowd but not kill me, and the band leader never bothered me about my volume again. The lead man put a little of me in his monitors, and all was good…..played that way for a couple of years. I could lean a little forward to hear how the speaker sounded, but surprisingly became very happy with the “side of my amp” sound. (amp also made a great arm rest)
After playing in a number of different environments since, I still am very happy with the sound and convenience of this set-up, regardless if I'm on the front line or back line.

[Dave Mudgett]

I already agreed that with a good sound company, one must depend on them to project the sound to the audience. The problem is when that isn't the situation.

Of course use your judgement about the source.

This is the ultimate problem with relying on "the gallery" for advice, IMO. In my experience, people have all kinds of motivations to interact with a band like this, many of them having little or nothing to do with "sound expertise". I heavily filter extraneous feedback from "the gallery". This doesn't mean I ignore someone who I know is really knowledgable and trying to help - in fact, when such people are present, I ask for help. But most of the time, I need to filter the info. In most bands I'm in, if there's no sound person, I'm the guy they usually ask go out to listen in the room. In that situation, I generally just have to wing it on the steel sound. Around here, relying on others to tell me how to tweak the steel sound is generally a waste of time - they have no clue what I'm going for. When I crank up the distortion, they say - "Yeah, that's it". I'd rather not play out than have "the gallery" dictate how I should sound, I mean that. But so far, that hasn't been a problem.

Another issue is that, especially without a serious quality PA to distribute the sound in a loud, crowded room - room sound varies a lot from location to location in the room - especially when the sound is primarily from the back line. In this situation, there's often no way to make everybody happy.

I'm sorry, but in "most" gig situations I see, I don't think it's practical for most pedal steel players to take their steel out in the middle of the room and listen during soundcheck. Aside from the fact that most people I work with would generally consider me to be a total PITA to ask for such a thing, many places I play just don't have room to set up a steel like that - there are seats, people already assembled, or other obstacles that make it impossible.

With 6-string guitar, I have often taken a 100-foot cord or wireless unit out into the room to balance-check the band during soundcheck - it's easy. But even that doesn't mean sound levels will be right when the room fills up. In a crowded, loud room - one needs a good PA and a good sound person. Short of that, it's pretty tough to get what I call a "good sound", well distributed throughout the room.

What to do? Listen during sound check and get it as good as you can, but then what Zappa said - "Shut up and play yer guitar". IMHO.

[Alvin Blaine]

With 6-string guitar, I have often taken a 100-foot cord or wireless unit out into the room to balance-check the band during soundcheck - it's easy.

The past few years I've been using a looper or Phrase Sampler. For those that don't know it's sort of a long digital delay, you can get ones that record about 15 to 30 seconds(line 6 DL4 or Akai E2 Headrush) or over 5 minutes(4 minute for the boomerang or 5 minutes for the Boss RC-20).
I have one that can do 5 minute of playing, so I play a song hit the repeat button and walk around the room the hear the sound. If the rest of the band is there I have them play along with it and dial in the mix.

[David L. Donald]

Alvin, that's a pretty good workaround.

[Dave Mudgett]

Alvin - that's a very good and logical approach. I'm not sure the people I play with would embrace with open arms the idea of soundchecking with a steel loop, but I think it's worth a discussion. I agree that it would be useful to at least hear myself out in the room before sound check - thanks.

In my world, for good or bad, the main point of soundcheck is most often to make sure the drums and bass, and then vocalists, are up in the mix - they often assume that instruments like electric guitar and steel can fend for their own interests. Mixing is often done with that type of rock band mentality, even when it's not a rock band. We have discussed in the past the fact that soundchecks often hyper-obsess with getting huge bottom end on the drums and bass, overlooking many other factors. Many times, if I attempt to put priority on guitar and especially steel, I am viewed as being a PITA and interfering with the "real" purpose of the soundcheck.

I imagine that this attitude is not universal, but it's pretty common here. Unless it's a quiet, listening, almost folk music venue, most people seem to want "bass in your face", which comes at the expense of other things.

[Brint Hannay]

Now this is why the Forum is such a great place! This thread has so much good and thoughtful input from so many people that I'm going to print it out so I can reread everything easily.

My goals for setting up my amp (in order of priority):

1a) Being able to hear myself, with a tone I like, and
b) Making sure anyone who might work against that--fussy club owner, self-obsessed lead singer, soundman at the board, etc.--is as FAR off-axis as possible.

2) Trying not to be painful to the audience

I find that putting something--gaffer's tape was mentioned earlier; I use a cardboard disc--on the amp's grillcloth, centered over the speaker's dustcap is very effective at suppressing speaker beaming.

soundchecks often hyper-obsess with getting huge bottom end on the drums and bass

Amen to that! I've often been baffled when a band insists on doing this on a gig where the drums would be loud enough acoustically with maybe a SLIGHT amount of kick drum in the PA. Personally, I don't know that I've ever heard a band (as an audience member) where I couldn't hear the bass, no matter what the sound setup.

[David L. Donald]

I agree that it would be useful to at least hear myself out in the room before sound check - thanks.
...........

We have discussed in the past the fact that soundchecks often hyper-obsess with getting huge bottom end on the drums and bass, overlooking many other factors. Many times, if I attempt to put priority on guitar and especially steel, I am viewed as being a PITA and interfering with the "real" purpose of the soundcheck.

I will note from the sound man's perspective that
getting a handle on the bottom end is by far that hardest job,
particularly because it can be radically different in each and every room.

Rooms ALL have different low end resonances,
depending on positioning of low frequency drivers.
This can change just by moving one woofer, one foot,
or the bass amp or even the bass drum it's self.

Getting a decent level and tone for the guitars is actualy
pretty darned quick, if the bottom is not out of control.
If it isn't it will put up a nice mud fight with your bottom end.
Steel, guitar, and worse for keys.

There is also a parrallel to putting togther recording an
original song,
you have the melody, but next get the rythmn section working tight,
then put on the counter melody and solo information.
But FIRST you build your rhythmn section.

Still completely ignoring other players in favor of
drums and bass ain't right either.

[Dave Mudgett]

Sure - the low-end resonance in a room can be problematic, even in the same room/PA on a different day. But I've also done lots of soundman gigs - if one doesn't insist on pushing the bass end right up to the limits of the room, it makes it a lot easier, and that's the type of behavior I'm talking about. Especially on a DIY sound gig, which is what I was talking about, it's a mistake to push everything right to the limit, because you're not there to ride the gains if it starts to go out-of-control. But a lot of rock-oriented people just do that instinctively and wonder why it feeds back and sounds like mush when they start to push it as the night wears on. I see this so often.

So in this situation, my attitude is to leave significant headroom, get a comfortable mix onstage, make some adjustments to get it out into the room, and then play my guitar and don't worry about it. One of the worst performance-destroyers is constantly having to jump up while playing to fix the PA from the stage. All IMO, of course.

[smike]

my favorite is when players tell me 'but i always set the treble on my amp to ____ and the bass to _____'... without regard for whether the room is big or small, has hard surfaces or is covered in rugs and curtains, small or big event, big or small p.a., etc.

you can always have someone just strum your instrument to get SOME idea of what it's going to sound like out in front... but then you also have to plan for what happens when the room fills with (sound-absorbing) people who'd rather talk than listen, bartenders firing up blenders, and lead guitar players who think the rest of the band is there to support them!

bottom line: be flexible, listen close and far, hope for the best.

bruce
aka smike

[Kevin Hatton]

If you have a sound man you can pretty much always set your amp the same way consistently. The sound man should be able to compensate equalization for any room at the board. Un miced is totally different.

[David L. Donald]

Dave M. I agree with one cavet.
Yes pushing the bass to the room and system limits is counter productive.

At the same time though,
room resonances are not volume specific,
they are there at 80 bd down, same as well past
the point of pain for ears.

You still need to deal with them up front, and on going.

When I play bass I try to listen to THE ROOM,
rather than my amp. If the room is ringing smoothly
across several bands / keys, then I know I got it right.

If some notes jump out and others disapear,
it's the same at all volumes; low or ear melting.

Last night I played a different amp in a different room,
it took me about 4 songs to get it smooth in the 'Room's Sound'.
Not my favorite 'stage tone', but the one that worked for the room.

I had played the room twice in a different band, in a different position,
with both electric and upright bass.
Totally different settings each time...
no correlation what so ever between the previous times.

It was a very low volume gig, most of the audience was 60+ years,
it was odd, the 30 somethings were walking by,
but we had dancing for geriatrics all night.
Still the oldsters didn't leave even during the rock stuff,
because they knew the tunes and we weren't too loud.

[Dave Mudgett]

Sure, David - I agree the room resonances are always there and need to be accounted for. I guess my point is - IMO - that behavior is much more predictable and easier to deal with if the room and equipment limits aren't being pushed. I think the level of standing wave interference and nonlinearities just go up as things are pushed harder and harder past reasonable limits. I think this often causes people to need to spend inordinate amounts of time tweaking the drums and bass. Of course, with a first-class sound company, there are sophisticated tools and people to use them to achieve higher sound levels without problems, but I'm not talking about that type of scenario.

I guess I don't know how to "sense" how the room is ringing after it gets filled up with people and we're playing - again I'm talking about no soundman, we're running sound from onstage. On a fairly loud, crowded gig like I'm talking about, there are a lot of other acoustic issues that interfere with (me) making that judgement from stage while playing. Surely, if we see somebody who we know and trust, we'll ask them if they detect any serious sound problems and try to fix them on set break. But for musicians to have to continually fool around with sound during a performance is a sure way to lose musical focus - for me anyway.

I see lots of clubs that have DIY sound systems or expect you to BYO, and there are plenty of bands that don't carry around a sound crew. I don't think this is at all theoretical.

[Whip Lashaway]

Tom, As always a great post. My 2 cents is this...in ear monitors. Have the best sound YOU want right in your ears and send out the best sound to FOH. With the system I use I'm hearing in my ears what the FOH is receiving. If it needs any tweaking the sound tech takes care of it. Can't sing the praises of in ears enough!!! The whole TruSouth Band pretty much is using in ears now. We go in, set up our gear, give the sound tech some noise, play 30 or 40 seconds of our curtain call and we're done. Sound check is all about the FOH guy being satisfied, on stage sound was pretty much set a couple of years back!! I'm not kidding, it just gets bumped a little now and then. As Forrest Gump said "That's all I have to say about that." God Bless Ya'll. Whip

[Joe Goldmark]

Hi Tom,

I can count on you to stir up the roux! So here's the answer. When I play out I dress western to the nines, show up on time, drink one beer max, and I'll even mingle with the crowd a little on my break. BUT, the steel sound is mine, baby! If I have to make it sound some way that doesn't please me (which no one has ever asked me to do BTW), then I'm out of there soon. The only exception is if another steeler who I respect mentions that I should turn up or down, or add a little treble or bass, I'll consider it. Or at a casual, I'll turn down if requested to do so. I put my amp on the ground, slightly to my left or right so that I'm not getting the shrill cone sound in my ear. Hence, I probably have enough treble out front, and I'm probably loud enough (sometimes too loud if I'm having to play over the band, as explained in my first post).

Tom, there's very few "sit down" gigs anymore. None around here (San Francisco). So every night is different, and on some level the audience isn't paying your salary, because there isn't much salary anyway. I play for fun, not money about 90% of the time, and if it isn't going to be fun, why bother shlepping all the gear?

Joe

[David L. Donald]

I love a good 'roux', from the classic french cooking styles.
Butter and flour 50/50 slow cooked till the flour taste is gone.
Even better with clarified butter.
But it sticks to you waist pretty good...

Room resonances are there empty or full, loud or soft.
Much worse and issue for the bass player, but
still an big issue for the 'accumulated low end" of a band.

When the room fills up you lose high end,
because the direct signal and reflexions are being absorbed by bodies.
BUT the low end is STILL there moving AROUND those bodies.
And doing it's hellish tricks with floor, ceiling and walls..

High end is very directional, while low end is pretty much 3D.

So getting your amps above audience head levels gets them
the least 'body interferance" and the most transmission into the room.

You notice the horns on a PA are always on the top, up high.
And the sub woofers on the ground.

[Barry Blackwood]

Tom, just to emphasize Joe's point, "on some level the audience isn't paying your salary, because there isn't much salary anyway," after 30 years of it, I had to file bankruptcy in '94. That's when playing isn't fun anymore ......