Players' Sound: What you Hear vs. What is Heard

Tom Bradshaw · Post by **Tom Bradshaw** » 4 Feb 2007 7:14 am

I'm not sure if this is the proper place to post this, but I guess b0b will move it if I'm in the wrong "pew".

Following the Mesa Show, I received a message from my friend, Herb Steiner. He thanked me for having one of my Webb amps available for testing at that show. Although Herb is a Webb amp owner, he tested the new Webb with the ported speaker chamber to see how it compared to what he has been playing through for about 8 years. Herb can post his conclusions about that if he wants; that is not the purpose of my post here.

In our exchange of emails, he included the following statement among the many thoughts we shared: "At the show the amp was sitting on the floor, whereas in my normal playing situation the amp sits at my ear level on top of it's road case."

That statement touched a nerve of mine. It has to do with musicians evaluating their sound, likely concluding that if it sounds good to them, it must be the "good sound" that the audience hears too. Most musicians may think, "If I sound good to myself (with their amp at ear level as Herb prefers), then I'll sound good to the audience". I don't want to claim that such thinking is musicians being arrogant about their sound and not caring how their sound impacts an audience. Frankly, I believe that if a musician gets the sound that pleases themselves, they play better and have more fun doing so: "a happy musician is a better musician"!

I've thought a lot about this in the past, but never had it hit home so dramatically as in a recent experience listening to an accomplished local steeler with "dynamite" chops and tasteful delivery. A few weeks ago I delivered a Webb amp to this player to try out. It wasn't the current model with the speaker chamber in it; I was working on that model at the time. Prior to delivering the amp I set the controls at the recommended "starting positions". The steeler wasn't at home when I delivered it, so I just left it with his wife.

As it turned out, the player told me that when he did get home he was running late and didn't have time to do any experimenting with the controls; he just grabbed the amp and went to his scheduled gig. Arriving late, he positioned the amp as he always does, on a chair close behind his head. He told me that the audience included several fellow steel players. He said that at intermission those steelers told him he never sounded better. They raved about the sound and asked him about his new Webb amp (his own amp is a popular brand that many steelers also use). And incidentally, the Webb I loaned him at the time had the same speaker (a 15" JBL) that is in his peAnd incidentally, the Webb I loaned him at the time had the same speaker (a 15" JBL) that is in his personal amp.

Contrary to what the other steel players said about his sound, the steeler advised me that he had not been happy with the sound he got during his performance that night. He mentioned that he had owned a Webb about 20 years previously, but back then had not really experimented with the many settings available on the amp. So, over the next several days after that gig, he said he tweaked the various controls and was amazed that he could "dial in" a sound that was identical to his personal amp, while discovering that many other alternative sounds could also be “dialed in”. (Hey, this is not an effort of mine to promote the Webb amp; I'm honestly reporting what the steeler told me!)

He then revealed that he had an upcoming gig scheduled very close to where I live and said he'd like to use the amp on that gig. He invited me to the dance and said I could hear the sound he was getting. He would return the amp to me there. I agreed. About a week later, the wife and I attended the dance and listened to him and his terrific group. Another steel friend (Neil Atkinson) was also there to hear him. Neil has heard this player many times. Neil and I both agreed that the sound was awful. Other than his great execution and impeccable back-up work, the sound failed to project, was muddy, didn't blend, and was often lost in the volume of the other instrument's sound. At intermission we told the player of our evaluation. He was stunned, since he said it sounded just fine to him on stage. He had no idea of how to correct the situation.

At intermission we told the player how we felt. He was stunned, since he said it sounded just fine to him on stage. He had no idea of how to correct the situation.

The point is surely obvious; what you hear "in your ear" is not likely going to be what the audience hears. This reality gives credence to the current practice of micing instruments and having a soundman (stationed in the audience) blend all the instruments through the PA system. The determination of a band's and individual player's "good" sound, is then controlled by a person who hears the final sound as it really is, and is able to alter it to get the best sound. I feel that if it continues being the musician's decision, they will opt for a sound that pleases them, while the audience will end up with something other than what the player hears. What thoughts do other Forumites have about this? ...Tom

Paul King · Post by **Paul King** » 4 Feb 2007 7:25 am

I have to agree with you Tom. If my steel sounds good to my ears I sure play better and enjoy playing. If it doesn't sound good I am sure it shows on my expression. I usually sit my amp on the floor but occasionally raise it in a chair which does change the sound. What I hear when playing and what the audience hears is sure different. I have played and taped the gig and have been surprised at what I heard, the good and the bad. I remember one night at a theater when the sound from my amp was worse than awful. I had the singing videoed and I was shocked at how good the steel sounded through the PA. Just recently even doing some recording the tone was different on the CD than what I had going in. It sure blows my mind for sure. This is sure an interesting topic and I bet there will be some great comments. Thanks Tom.

Larry Strawn · Post by **Larry Strawn** » 4 Feb 2007 7:59 am

Interesting topic, not being a sound engineer I'm not qualified to make any profound statements here, but I do know there's been times when my amp sounded good to me on the bandstand but musicians and steelers who I respect told me it sounded "muddy, or sharp". I do keep a tape recorder running during most of our gigs and I can always hear the difference on tape after making amp corrections.
I like to keep my amp on an amp stand positioned behind my right ear, when I have to position it differently nothing sounds right to me!
No one else in the group plays steel so I can listen to my rig, I just have to rely on my ears, tape recorder, and past experience in that particular club, [and hope maybe one of these friends will show up]and give me an opinion.

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 4 Feb 2007 8:40 am

I have to agree that having a soundman controlling the sound heard by the audience is clearly the best way in theory. Unfortunately, in my experience, there are so many obstacles to this working out in the real world that it looks to me like the near-impossible dream.

The most obvious obstacle, of course, is that successfully running sound is a job that requires at least as much technical expertise, good artistic judgement, and ability to interact effectively and harmoniously with a group as being a musician does. Couple that with the fact that the soundman gets less of the psychological rewards of appreciation and approval from the audience and, generally, from the other group members, and a truly good soundman is even harder to find than truly good players.

Then, the hardest thing about running sound would be exactly dealing with what the musicians themselves hear. Placement of amps and monitors and position of the musicians relative to the drums, (What do you call a guy who hangs out with musicians? A drummer!

) make such enormous differences and are so critical. Running the monitors so that everyone is happy with what they're hearing throughout the constantly changing musical situation, with the other sound sources (amps, drums) also onstage and subject to the musicians' own control, through playing dynamics if not amp controls, is like herding cats.

Then, too, for musicians playing at the local level, there's the obvious problem of being able to AFFORD a soundman, even if you can find a good one.

It seems, then that for the average musician, and average band, muddling through by developing amp placement strategies is the only viable option. Most of the bands I've played in have either not miked the instruments (or only miked the drums) or miked everything but had a band member running everything from onstage, thus relying a lot on audience feedback.

In the latter case, I feel the best strategy is to have the players' amps IN FRONT of them, facing back at them (except, most likely, the bass). Even at head level, one's perception of the highs coming from an amp is hugely different depending if the amp is behind your head or in front, resulting in musicians unwittingly subjecting the audience to harsh, unpleasant sounds. If the sound is in your own face, you're much less likely to play with ugly tone, or too loud!

mtulbert · Post by **mtulbert** » 4 Feb 2007 9:05 am

Well this is something that I have been struggling with for a while and trying to solve.

I notice that even messing around the house that if you change the position of the speaker or elevate it off the floor you get an enitre new "sound" out of it.

My "problem" is this. My band normal setup is everything out through the PA. I found that if I set the tone controls for a good monitor sound on stage, that it would normally be way too bright for the audience in that I was boosting treble to compensate for lack of a high frequency speaker in my speaker cabinet. I went so far as to get a JBL tweeter and while that helped somewhat it really did not rectify the problem for me.

I did find a solution for the problem and I am not here to promote anyone's equpment since Mr. Bradshaw raised the topic. I will be glad to share it with anyone through emails and in this day of ampless on the stage or being sent direct through the PA it is not a bad solution.

The last gig we did I was amazed how good the sound was through the PA and I was very happy with my JBL "monitor" sound. The nice thing about this setup is if we only sent vocals through the PA and I had to depend on the amp for the room coverage that the tone would be very close to the PA barring the difference in speaker construction.

Regards to all.

Mark T.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 4 Feb 2007 9:34 am

Well Tom it depends.

If you don't mike your amp, your "out front" or rather "in the back or middle" sound is going to have much less high freqs. So much so that if you correct it, and have it pointed at your head, it's going to loosen your fillings, besides blowing your ears out.

I've never been enough of a hero to do this for any length of time. Wearing ear plugs is like taking a shower with a raincoat on.. or....

Also PA-less, there's pointing the amp at the ceiling, giving more uniform coverage, and you need to boost the highs even more.

There are two ways to know how you sound out front.

One is to have somebody that you totally trust go out and hear it, and come back and tell you, or give you signals.

Two is to get a pocket recorder, and set it somewhere out in the place, and see what it sounds like.

Pointing your amp at your head, as mentioned, out in front pointed back, or even just earphones means that you totally trust the "soundman", or trust the usual band setup, if there isn't one. Few of them have my tase in what I wan't to hear. A couple here locally, I've come to trust. Mike Millian, and Dave Grafe. One other "Dreadlocks kid" too. It's a relatively small town.

If you know you aren't loud enough and aren't "getting out" like your friend/spouse/manager/etc putting his/her/it's hand up to their ears, "giving you the signal" and your amp is pointed at your head, you'r pretty much stuck blowing your eardrums out if you want to "get out".

Always an Uncle Eric Story I guess, but a long time ago the band I was in opened for the Sweethearts of Vince Gill (The Rodeo). They didn't have a PSG. It was a nice stage and good lighting.

Sound check went well etc. Time for the show, they turned the lights off on my side of the stage, and I got taken out of the PA. I thought that was kind of cheezy. I guess I was flattered..

I turned my Session 500 up toward the ceiling and both gains up to 8. I know my "compressor light" was on nearly all the time, and people said that the steel covered really fine. I could see the S of R sound guys scowling. That's how I knew my level was fine.

No, I can't see any reason to point a 200 watt amp at my head. Not even an 80 watter. Not even with earplugs. Many of the clubs I play at, I like to use the amp as my amp, and the PA only secondary reinforcement for the people in the parking lot/cheap seats. Just my preference. Larger clubs or venues are different.

I just got a 20 watt Peavey KB1 that I am going to use at a couple smaller venues as my second amp out of my PodxtLive. I will point it directly at my head, and will have a guitar line into it from the guitar player across the stage in the second channel. That's just 20 watts though.

It all depends.

But then you must know that.

EJL

Mark van Allen · Post by **Mark van Allen** » 4 Feb 2007 9:53 am

A very, very good topic, Tom, something we all struggle with in some form.
Many years ago I was thrilled to take delivery of a new Webb amp, as I had been playing my Emmons PP through a truly crappy (tube) Twin copy. I could not believe how much better my amplified tones were, and how good my "rig" sounded to me onstage... and I was puzzled by the less-than-enthusiastic response from bandmates and audience who had seen me play before. "It's too shrill", "cuts through me at the back of the room", "just too loud", "not as nice as your old amp"(!), were the types of comments I was getting.
I was fairly upset, as I had been trying for what some would refer to as classic Emmons guitar tone, and the new Webb sounded so much more like what I was going for.
Eventually after much experimenting, recordings, (amp on the floor, amp on a stand, etc.), and helpful musician pals, I figured out that the amp was beaming in the midrange/ presence area, and what sounded sweet, clear, detailed and gorgeous to me onstage was coming across as harsh, biting, and nasal. Not the results we want, for sure.
I found I had to re-adjust my onstage tonal "satisfaction" to play with less treble, presence, and upper midrange, getting a sound that was somewhat duller than I wanted to play with, in order for it to translate well "out front".

Webb fans, please understand, these are not criticisms of the amp itself, which I played happily for many years- but observations on the difference in tonality to me onstage, and similar to what I've experienced with other amps since. I think this may be a reason for the preference for tube amps by some players.

The most interesting thing to me, is that as I accommodated myself more to the "audience perspective", my tonal desires themselves seemed to adjust, and over the years my "tone" has gotten more mellow, to the point where I think my "sound" is nowhere near "classic PP steel". I never, ever hear comments about my steel sounding harsh or biting.

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 4 Feb 2007 10:52 am

I am a Webb player so I'll comment here. I play every weekend, have opened for dozens of Nashville acts in front of thousands of people over the years. I'v done theatres, outdoor rodeos, big stages, parties, bars, etc. The majority I've used my Webb amp. Shakespere (Eric West) is right on in his observation about pointing your amp at your head in an unmiked situation. Highs drop off very fast from the stage and definition is lost out in the audience. Many years ago I was down on Broadway in Nashville listening to a blaze Telecaster player. I noticed that he sounded razor sharp when you got up close, but sound full and defined just 15 feet off stage. He wasn't miked. The point being that what you are hearing is not necesarily what the audience is hearing. I know some steel players that insist on setting their amps overly warm and midranegy on stage, like they were playing in their den. When you go out in the audience their muddy/undefined sound is totally lost in the overall mix. I've seen players totally destroy the natural sound of good brand steel guitars by doing this. Like your playing through a pillow.
What I have done with my Webb years ago was to have another player play through it as I went out into the audience and check amp settings. Those are the settings that I use (within one cycle) everytime I play out now. The bands that I am in have sound people and I am always miked. I also have my own monitor mix. I love my Webb amp and have gotten many comments on its sound from sound people. I go for a sharp clear west coast kind of sound and I know how to get it with thew Webb. Its not for everyone and whatever makes you happy is what you should do.

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 4 Feb 2007 12:00 pm

I am one that normally has the amp raised, on a an amp stand. I do that for one main reason, I can "control" my volume level a lot better if it's aimed at me and don't wind up playing too loud. If the amp is on the floor, I have no idea of how loud I'm playing.

However, I have played with the amp sitting on the floor and I find a different EQ setting is required when sitting on the floor.

admin · Post by **b0b** » 4 Feb 2007 3:49 pm

I usually set the amp too bright on stage if it's not miked, because high frequencies don't travel well. Lately I've been miking it, though. Since I do the band's sound, I have the luxury of hearing the amp in the mix in my headphones. At that point, the sound on stage is irrelevant to me.

Tom is right that ideally, the sound man should EQ the steel in the mains. Unfortunately, many sound guys have no clue as to what the steel should sound like, and some of them just don't like steel at all so they turn it way down (or off).

I was in a band for several years where the steel was loud and fine on stage, but the audience couldn't hear it at all.

Experiences like that have endowed me with a basic mistrust of sound engineers. At a recent performance I used my typical Boogie 2x12 setup. The top speaker is a bright one aimed at my ear, and the bottom one has the mellow primo sound intended for the audience. I always mike the bottom one. I told the stage hand to mike the bottom one, and he said, "we'll mike them both". I couldn't talk him out of it. He had the channels, so he figured "Why not?". From all accounts the tone was fine out front, but I'm sure that if the top speaker was included in the mix without rolling off the high end, it sounded brighter than I intended.

Bobby Boggs · Post by **Bobby Boggs** » 4 Feb 2007 7:47 pm

Tom is right that ideally, the sound man should EQ the steel in the mains. Unfortunately, many sound guys have no clue as to what the steel should sound like, and some of them just don't like steel at all so they turn it way down (or off).

Make that Most sound guys have no clue as to what the steel should sound like.

Jim Bob Sedgwick · Post by **Jim Bob Sedgwick** » 4 Feb 2007 8:08 pm

Thank God the audience is not as critical as we are!!! I agree a sound man can make or break you. Our band mikes all the amps, we set the board for the sound out front then leave it alone. In my experience, most sound men can not set the sound and then LEAVE IT ALONE. They are constantly playing with tone, instrument levels, etc. We prefer to run our own.

Bill Llewellyn · Post by **Bill Llewellyn** » 4 Feb 2007 8:36 pm

One really fundamental challenge in stage amplification versus PA is that a guitarist's amplifier is in a VERY different delivery position than the PA speakers. What's coming from the steel amp and what's coming from the PA speakers, for the audience's ears, have very different points of origin, and therefore very different character upon arrival at the listener's ears. The PA speakers are generally elevated, often quite large, and located on both sides of the stage. The steeler's amplifier is usually behind the steeler, either on the floor or on a stand (chair or otherwise) and pointed at the steeler. The PA speakers' projection is meant to sail over everyone's heads so it can make it to the back of the room. A floor-position amp hits the front row folks, prob'ly in the knees. The sound the audience will get from these two arrangements is, well, very different. Imagine if your Nashville 400 or Webb amp were to be taken out from behind you, made into two, and hoisted on 6' stands on either side of the stage. Even if there were no change in the amp's basic EQ, the sound the audience would get would be much changed. Probably much more present. Not what you're hearing at your PSG. And also no longer under your control.... And therein lies the rub.

Joe Goldmark · Post by **Joe Goldmark** » 4 Feb 2007 10:22 pm

Hi Tom,

I have to say, screw the audience. It's a battle to get tone I enjoy on stage, and when it happens, I'm in heaven and play much better, partly because I'm more relaxed. Everything effects what we hear on stage. The proximity of the guy standing next to you, how much volume from the other instruments that you're hearing that you have to play over to hear yourself, where the walls and ceiling are, etc. And, that's even before you consider amp brand, speaker, amp placement and the kind of axe you're playing. That's why it's always tougher playing outside, because there's no acoustics around your amp to help your tone. Another problem with using sound men, is that usually steel through the monitors sounds like crap. I generally try not to have a monitor so i don't get more band noise thrown at me and I don't have to worry about what they'll do to the steel sound. Sorry to rave, but tone on the bandstand is tricky enough without having to worry about another questionable dimension.

Joe

Barry Gaskell · Post by **Barry Gaskell** » 5 Feb 2007 2:41 am

Tom my friend ,you are spot on in your evaluation of what you hear on stage and your perception of what the audience is hearing. There are two different basic situations here. The first is relying on your amp alone to serve the audience and second, when a sound man is involved. The first situation is infinitely more complicated, as you youself have to determine your own levels and there comes a point re 'loudness' where the sweetness and comfort zone on stage become compromised. Also having the amp behind your upper body in such situations is (A) dangerous and (B) confusing, as during peak sound levels it cuts the rest of the band out. Also you have to 'bastardise' the quality of your sound to enable it to travel. I've found that when you play to a comfortable crowd of around fifty with your average steel amp, all around is audible, your sound is sweet, every body can hear it and your music can breathe. Every amp has an optimum working level that uses the EQ most efficiently. It's this level, (via master vol), balanced with your hearing comfort level in a given situation that I pursue. When a sound man is involved, the ideal is to treat the gig as an audience of fifty as far as levels are concerned and trust the sound man to get your sound out. He's there to further your sound, so call him over and play your steel to him and suggest if he can reproduce that sound, it would be great. These guys can crucify you if you rub them up the wrong way, so buy him a drink and be friendly.
I knew a lead player who, when you stood in the wings, had the sweetest sound, as well as being a great guitarist. When you went out front you couldn't hear him and he refused to adjust anything to compromise his sound. What was the point of him being there ?. The annoying thing re-sound etc is that only, maybe one night in three do you come away satisfied with (A) your playing and (B) your sound.
How many of us have had new amp and used it at home and had the most glorious sound imagineable, yet when we've taken it to a show and had to wind up the volume, been disappointed, simply because of the levels changing the tonal character , amp position, and environment.
If you can take it, ask opinions from people out front you think will give a reasonably honest assessment and be prepared to be shocked !!

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 5 Feb 2007 2:56 am

You really have to take into consideration that the sound you hear coming from BEHIND you out of your amp has the high frequencies attenuated by your ears. You are bound to hear sounds coming straight at you as per the audiences position with much more top end.

The two are like chalk and cheese. Or should that be Chalker and Reese !!
(There's more to that statement than meets the eye, or ear.)

Frank Parish · Post by **Frank Parish** » 5 Feb 2007 3:09 am

This is a subject that should've been raised many years ago. I always put the amps on the floor with the exception of at one time I had the amps on milk crates because they sat behind the stage to bring the amps up to the right or normal level. That "right level" is aimed under my ears and more at my mid section so as not to blow me away with one or more amps. Putting it on the floor always sounds like more bass response as too make the stage resonate. Just putting it on a chair like some do doesn't work for me. The second thing that I don't like about that set-up is if the amps are aimed at your ears, how do you hear the rest of the band and get an equal output and balance? I'm not talking about a sound man here. I think if the club you're playing doesn't hold more than 200 people, you don't need a sound man. For whatever reason, two many groups think they have to have it all miked and it turns out way too loud to hear anything. The so called "sound engineer" is more than likely old Joe Whathisname that failed at being a muscian and wound up a stage hand that has his own PA gear. That's just my experience and maybe not yours. The kind of Honky Tonks, clubs, private parties and things I play just doesn't need a sound man. I like the idea that Evans has at putting the little thing at the bottom of the amp so as to give it a little lift so you can hear it. What I like about this thing the most is you not only can hear it but the amp still stays on the floor to keep putting out the bass response I like. Just my thoughts here and maybe not yours.

Dave Hepworth · Post by **Dave Hepworth** » 5 Feb 2007 5:58 am

HI,
I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH TOM BRADSHAW-A HAPPY MUSICIAN PLAYS BETTER.
YEARS AGO WHEN PLAYING AT A GIG, (250 SEATER),I THOUGHT WHAT WOULD THE RESULTING SOUND BE IF I HOOKED MY REGULAR GUITAR AMP (VALVE FENDER CONCERT)AND MY PSG AMP(PEAVY VEGAS)IN TRUE STEREO USING MY BOSS RV2 REVERB PEDAL.THE RESULT WAS NOTHING SHORT OF AMAZING .THE SOUND HAD DEPTH AND AMBIANCE I CANNOT DESCRIBE .AS THE 2 AMPS WERE ABOUT 8 FEET APART AND MYSELF IN THE MIDDLE IT WAS LIKE WEARING HEAD PHONES -AND I COULD STILL HEAR THE REST OF THE BAND -AS TO OBTAIN THE SAME SOUND PRESSURE LEVELS I DIDNT HAVE TO RELY ON MY VEGAS WORKING HARD AS A POINT SOURCE OF SOUND.FRIENDS IN THE AUDIENCE SAID IT WAS THE BEST SOUND THEY HAD HEARD FROM ME.
I WOULD NEVER PLAY IN MONO AGAIN, AND I WOULD RECOMMEND ANY PSG PLAYER TO DO THE SAME .THE SECRET IS TO USE A TRUE STEREO FX PEDAL/UNIT AND SEPARATE YOUR AMPS BY ABOUT 6TO 8 FEET PREFERABLY ANGLED UP SLIGHTLY TO YOURSELF-RESULT EAR CANDY.DONT BUY ANOTHER STEEL, BUY ANOTHER AMP-PRERABLY DIFFERENT TO THE ONE YOU HAVE ALREADY GOT.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 5 Feb 2007 6:33 am

The lead guitarist, frontman Gary P, Nunn, and I all keep our amps fairly close to ear level, or at least elevated in order to keep the onstage volume as close to a dull roar as possible. We mike everything and have a good soundman.

I have faith in the soundman because I've heard recordings of our live shows and it all sounds balanced and good. The soundman knows what it's supposed to sound like.

That said, in the past I've usually had my amp on the floor, or at least raised only about 12" off the floor. Now I keep it higher for control purposes. My ears have adjusted to the sound.

I also agree with Joe G. Everything about doing one-nighters like we do is totally situational, so it's waking up in a new world every night.

Barry Blackwood · Post by **Barry Blackwood** » 5 Feb 2007 6:45 am

Tom, I'm with Joe Goldmark on this all the way.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 5 Feb 2007 8:01 am

I agree with Joe Goldmark also. For me, every situation is different - sometimes it's a quiet place with minimal PA, other times it's a loud rowdy club with a loud but do-it-yourself PA, and other times there's a good house sound system with good engineers. But no matter what is going on, I have to get it reasonable for myself first, and rely on something else to get it out to the audience if that's not enough. I generally prefer to put the amp on the floor or very close to it, and angle it up ala the old Fender amp tilt-back legs, but sometimes I need to elevate it more to hear well. I also generally prefer minimal to no monitors, and try to bring along enough juice that my amp suffices to hear myself.

Getting a good sound is usually not a problem in a small, quiet place, as long as I scale the amp appropriately - that is, bring an appropriate-sized amp. The loud, rowdy club is often the most difficult for me - a cheap, DIY PA generally just sounds bad for anything more than vocals and minimal instrument reinforcement. I try to bring along enough juice so I only need minimal reinforcement. In the larger, better places with a good PA and engineers, I work to just get my sound and then rely on them to project it. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't, even with a good system with good engineers. But in that situation - I view my job to present them with a good signal. I'd go nuts trying to second-guess what they're going to do with it. Of course, if I can hear something is really wrong in soundcheck - if there is a proper one - I'll mention it. But I think one is really at their mercy, to a large extent.

Rick Nicklas · Post by **Rick Nicklas** » 5 Feb 2007 10:12 am

I too take the Goldmark approach. Through the years I have learned the positioning of my amp (about 4 feet back and a couple of feet off the ground to the right or left of my body). There is a strategic slight angle that I turn my steel out just a little so if I have to really punch it up I never hurt my ears getting a bigger sound or more treble. The guys that really need to be miked thru a PA are the ones that put their amp on the ground centered behind them and angled up (I know they can't hear it but out in front it sounds muffled, like someone thru a rug over their speaker). I don't like a monitor in my face either. I get enough sound to hear when and where I should fit in on an arrangement. This thread may eventually work into a poll with several options to pick from.

Tom Bradshaw · Post by **Tom Bradshaw** » 5 Feb 2007 10:32 am

Correction. I have been advised that a portion of my original post doesn't make any sense. For reasons I can't explain, over 2 paragraphs in my original post got deleted. I know they were in there when I first posted, because I read everything through after pasting the text from my word processor onto the Forum's "New Topic" posting page. I have gone back and edited in what was missing. So, if you read it before you are now reading it for the first time, what you read is now accurate. I regret whatever happened. ...Tom

Bari Smith · Post by **Bari Smith** » 5 Feb 2007 11:06 am

Gotta throw mine in there!!!!I have been a WEBB user for years.I tried all the "other popular brands"and was never satisfied,Now I have @ Webb's.Depending on the situation...I have found it best for me to have the amp elevated behind me with an extension cab (custom built like a wedge)in front next to the stage monitor.Being a sound guy myself...we use a term called "coupling".This is a speakers relationship to the surface it is sitting on.This seems to mostly effect low end,but the point is a cab does sound totally different elevate as opposed to sitting on the floor.I also use the old Stevie Ray trick of gaffers tape on the grill in front of the center dust cover,prevents the "beaming " of highs and gives you a truer sence of your EQ.Also if ya can't trust your soond guy get another one!!!!Lots of times in club situations,we pay our guy more than we make.He is that important to us.But then again we have worked with him on stage positioning for the best result out front.There is a happy medium or balance ,if you will,but ya gotta be willing to shoot for it.And I use an active Direct Box to link to the PA...no bleed over and an absolute clear signal for the sound guy to work with.In bigger venues we also mic the amp.THANKS!!

Miguel e Smith · Post by **Miguel e Smith** » 5 Feb 2007 11:07 am

I'll agree with those that setup their amp (or amps) to please themselves. Although I am concerned about what is heard off-stage, the output should be in the PA for the crowds benefit. It's already been mentioned, but I also respond playing-wise in direct proportion to how I sound to me.

As far as being in the PA, my concept is to let them come to me...get what I do and mix...hopefully good. I generally like to hear a certain sound pressure in my head (the sweet spot) but I shouldn't have to play any louder just because the crowd is larger. Have the system adjust accordingly. Even fairly small system will benefit by having. Ahhh...this is getting into volume/mix thing, but if the responsibility is not put on us as players to be both musicians and the audience mix, then it certainly applies.

I know players who love their amp on the floor and shoot the speaker under themselves or out to one side. They get used to hearing themselves that way. One thing that does is give them more high-end output without hearing it as much themselves. I still prefer to just give me what I like as close as comfortable (stands, angled towards one side and/or the other from behind or even from the front) and then hope the house engineer does a good job. If you mix from the stage (I do in several bands), just use as many good ears in the band to walk out and listen to try and get a decent basic mix.

Mike

The Steel Guitar Forum

Players' Sound: What you Hear vs. What is Heard

Players' Sound: What you Hear vs. What is Heard

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