| Author |
Topic: Q. For Builders - Pickup Placement and Heigth |
Matthew Prouty
From:
Warsaw, Poland
|
Posted 21 Apr 2006 10:18 am |
|
I am in the process of building my first lapsteel. I am at the point that I am going to put in the pickup, a Wallace True Tone. The problem is I am not sure if I should bottom mount this pickup against the body or if I should devise some type of floating system like on tele or some type with the pickup mounted on the wood of the body. I am not real sure why the floating method is used other then an easy way to adjust the pickups height.
Any ideas or thougts?
M.
|
|
|
|
Bill Creller
From:
Saginaw, Michigan, USA (deceased)
|
Posted 21 Apr 2006 11:49 am
|
|
If you mount it directly to the body, how will you adjust string height?? The floater idea seems best for adjustment. Some Gibsons had non-adjustable pick-ups,with a fixed string height. I think you can make life simpler with adjustable height.
Just an opinion. |
|
|
|
basilh
From:
United Kingdom
|
Posted 21 Apr 2006 1:40 pm
|
|
As near as possible to the bridge, is all I can suggest.
------------------
| Quote: |
| Steel players do it without fretting |
 
|
|
|
|
Roman Sonnleitner
From:
Vienna, Austria
|
Posted 21 Apr 2006 2:15 pm
|
|
Do you have a picture or a link to your pickup?
I'm not familiar with that model, and usually it is the pickup type that determines the way it is mounted.
BTW, on most body-mounted pickups the height can also be adjusted - you just have to put a piece of foam rubber between pickup and wood, or put springs on the screws you use to mount the pickup (of course the pickup cavity has to be deep enough to allow adjusting the height).
Sound-wise there is not going to be a lot of difference between wood-mounted (unless the whole pickup is firmly in contact with the wood surface - usually it is only held by two screws, which don'T transmit enough body vibrations to change the tone) or pickguard-mounted (only if the bridge is part of the pickup-mount, like on a telecaster, there might be some influence).
Also, I don't agree that the pickup should be put as close as possible towards the bridge - the position depends a lot on what sound you are going for, the closer to the bridge the brighter and treblier the sound; I wanted a fatter sound for my DIY lap steel, so moved it a bit farther towards the neck than on most lapsteels; you might do as I did: if you alread have completed most of your lapsteel, but haven't made the pickup cavity yet, do mount the strings, and lay the pickup above the strings (with some wood shims on the sides to provide the necesseray distance between polepieces and strings), solder it provisionally to a plug, and slide it back and forth to find the position you like best sound-wise...
PS: Here's a link to my thread about building mine, maybe it helps a little bit?
http://www.steelguitarforum.com/Forum2/HTML/008383.html
[This message was edited by Roman Sonnleitner on 21 April 2006 at 03:18 PM.] [This message was edited by Roman Sonnleitner on 22 April 2006 at 08:46 AM.] |
|
|
|
Roman Sonnleitner
From:
Vienna, Austria
|
Posted 21 Apr 2006 2:47 pm
|
|
Addendum: This is what my lapsteel currently looks like:
- added the (grounded) chrome cover to give more shielding against noise from monitors, fluorescent lights,... - there is some foam rubber underneath the P90 pickup, an the height is adjusted with the screws on the dogears of the cover; there's a tiny gap between cover and body, but that is not really visible unless you are looking from a close distance; this method (foam - or alternately, springs on the mounting screws) should work with almost all pickup types, BTW. |
|
|
|
Matthew Prouty
From:
Warsaw, Poland
|
Posted 22 Apr 2006 12:08 am
|
|
Roman,
Thats a nice looking guitar. I like the idea of a bottom mount for the pick up. Here is a link to the Wallace pickups.
http://www.jerrywallacemusic.com/customers.htm
If you look down you will see a lap steel from Terry Farmer with the same pickup.
On your lapsteel what scale did you use?
How did you make the fretboard?
It sure does look nice in the picture. I am going to get some pictures up later today with my rough work so far.
M.
|
|
|
|
Roman Sonnleitner
From:
Vienna, Austria
|
Posted 22 Apr 2006 7:39 am
|
|
Thanks! Scale is 23", fretboard is made from a maple fretboard blank, lightly painted, sanded, fretmarkers drawn with felt-tip pen, then painted over (unfortunately the clear lacquer very slightly solved the felt-tip pen's color).
Your pickup is perfect for mounting directly to the wood (just like on the lap steel pictured on the linked site) - just measurehow far down the bottom edge would be fom the strings (with the polepieces about 2 to 5 mm from the strings, depending on how hot or clear you want the sound, add about 6 or 7 mm to that, and that's how deep the pickup cavity has to be (measured from string level, not from the top of the instrument); then cut some foam rubber (like from a computer mouse-pad) to the appropriate size (leave notches for the screws), and screw that pickup down using wood screws of appropriate length (should not go through back of body, of course  , but there should be some leeway to lower or raise the pickup by a few millimeter).
PS: Forgot something: on mine I put a piece of aluminium, which is connected to the ground pole of the plug, underneath the foam rubber - those P90s are very noisy single-coils and need every bit of shielding they can get...[This message was edited by Roman Sonnleitner on 22 April 2006 at 08:48 AM.] [This message was edited by Roman Sonnleitner on 22 April 2006 at 08:49 AM.] |
|
|
|
John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
|
Posted 22 Apr 2006 10:54 am
|
|
I remember a discussion about, was it the Dean lapsteel???
I didn't see why the sound of a pickup should change if it was directly mounted to the guitar, or if it was "floating."
It seems to me that the pickup is sensing, and converting, the strings' movement, and that the manner of mounting made little difference on a solid body guitar. I mean, it's a magnetic pu, so why would it sense vibrations in the wood?
I recall that Rick A. may have proved me wrong, but I'm not sure! So now that I've cleared that up.............. |
|
|
|
Roman Sonnleitner
From:
Vienna, Austria
|
Posted 22 Apr 2006 11:42 am
|
|
Well, I guess theoretically a pickup really solidly fixed to the (resonating) body (and I mean with large-area solid contact surfaces) might start vibrating at the same frequency the body does, and that way might change/oscillate in its distance to the vibrating strings - which might possibly influence the tone (I'm not sure how the Rickenbacker horse-shoe pickup is mounted, but going from its size and possibly weight, that might be an example of this case).
As for 'regular' single-coil or humbucking pickups, no matter whether they are fixed to a pickguard (with screws and springs) or to the body (either damped by foam rubber, or floating, with springs on the screws), there's just almost no contact surface to transmit vibrations (just where the screwheads touch the baseplate of the pickup), so vibrations aren't really transmitted, and there's little to no influence on tone to be expected.[This message was edited by Roman Sonnleitner on 22 April 2006 at 12:43 PM.] |
|
|
|
Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
|
|
|
|
John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
|
Posted 22 Apr 2006 12:41 pm
|
|
| Rick, I'm glad you chimed in! I remember getting very confused during that disussion. Faraday's Law! Yeah! Now I remember! I remember that I got really confused! JB |
|
|
|
Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
|
|
|
|
John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
|
Posted 22 Apr 2006 1:09 pm
|
|
| Rick, wasn't Les Paul's idea with the log, or the earlier piece of track, that the body didn't matter? I know that one of my Teles is fairly microphonic, but it seems that, no matter where I tap/bump it, the resulting sound from the amp is always the same frequency. Or at least very nearly the same. If that's true, wouldn't only frequencies played on the guitar that closely matched the thump-sound be effected? Not trying to be a jerk, I'm just curious. |
|
|
|
Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
|
|
|
|
John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
|
Posted 22 Apr 2006 2:04 pm
|
|
" that the body just can't be moved to any extent by the strings.
Almost zero "acoustic" properties."
Hmmm! I agree that the "acoustic properteis" have a definite effect, but isn't that an effect on the strings and their vibrations, rather than an effect on the pickup? I may never understand this, but I sure appreciate your explanations!
JB |
|
|
|
Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
|
|
|
|
John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
|
Posted 22 Apr 2006 3:57 pm
|
|
Excellent reply Rick! Thank you! Important to my understanding is; "A pup mounted to this body will read the strings ... but since it itself is moving (attached to the body) ... the coil and magnets will be moving too." and
"This cumulative movement ... of the strings in relationship to the pup ... creates a signal ... that is different than if the pup were just "floating" over the strings, not connected with the body at all (as in a lab experiment)..."
I like to think that I'm a logical thinker, but logic gets muddied up when one doesn't have the facts needed. Thanks much! JB |
|
|
|
Bill Creller
From:
Saginaw, Michigan, USA (deceased)
|
Posted 22 Apr 2006 5:34 pm
|
|
| I think we should get Rick to write a book/manual on the subject, along with the other stuff he knows. We may all have to go out and buy a scientific calculator though. |
|
|
|
John Bechtel
From:
Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.
|
Posted 22 Apr 2006 11:24 pm
|
|
Matthew; Generally 1½” from the Center of the Bridge to the Center of the P/U~Pole seems to be a popular position for the P/U. If the P/U has (2)-rows of magnets or (2)-bar=magnets, it would be 1½” from the Center of the Bridge to the Center [between] the (2)-rows or [between] the (2)-bar=magnets. However, it's not chiseled in stone!  My 24¼” necks have the center of the Humbuckers 2” from the center of the Bridge~Radius! That surprises me at the moment!
------------------
“Big John”
a.k.a. {Keoni Nui}
Current Equipment
[This message was edited by John Bechtel on 23 April 2006 at 08:18 PM.] |
|
|
|
basilh
From:
United Kingdom
|
Posted 23 Apr 2006 2:38 am
|
|
The ratio between the initial 'Transient' and the following sustained note gets greater as you move away from the bridge, so, the 'Perceived' sustain is less the further from the bridge the mounting is.
I've ALWAYS found that the 1½” distance sounds best (IMHO)
------------------
| Quote: |
| Steel players do it without fretting |
|
|
|
|
Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
|
Posted 23 Apr 2006 3:54 am
|
|
quote:
Here's where it gets "tough" to describe without mathematics ...
The movement of the body can be described by a series of wave functions ... which are different than that of the wave functions describing the strings ... because of size, shape, material, etc ...
I remembered a site that will help to "visualize" what I was referrin' to here ... without the math ...
Modal Analysis of an Electric Guitar
------------------
Hawaiian Steel Stuff
The Casteels
|
|
|
|
Roman Sonnleitner
From:
Vienna, Austria
|
Posted 23 Apr 2006 7:18 am
|
|
Rick, two points:
-) About body vibrations: you also have to add the resonance frequency - the frequency at which any solid material will vibrate if stimulated; the body will not only take over the vibration frequency from the strings, but also, provided there's enough transmission of energy, start vibrating itself at a certain frequency - the resonance frequency (sorry if my terms are not always 100% correct - I'm not a native speaker of English...); this resonance frequency is diferrent for different materials, that's why even with solid body guitars the choice of wood type does influence the tone of the instrument.
-) about your second point: (influence of vibration on pick-up) - that's what I was trying to say: a pickup that has a solid contact with the body will be influenced by body vibrations; but wouldn't you agree that a pickup that is mounted to a pickguard (which is usually made of rather non-resonating, flexible plastic), or to the body, with foam rubber (which will damp pretty much any kind of vibration in the pickup), or with two tiny screws that only contact the pickup at two tiny edges/holes, and with springs that will also have a damping aspect on any vibrations, will pretty much be free from being influenced directly by body vibrations?[This message was edited by Roman Sonnleitner on 23 April 2006 at 08:20 AM.] |
|
|
|
Roman Sonnleitner
From:
Vienna, Austria
|
Posted 23 Apr 2006 7:33 am
|
|
Basil,
you say that 1 1/2" between Pickup and bridge ALWAYS sounds best - well, no disrespect, but let me add - sounds best TO YOU!
Tastes differ, preferences differ, tones differ - that's why pickups are found on all different kinds of distances on various guitar models (and why some guitars have two or three pickups) - allegedly, the little difference between the distance of a Tele neck pickup and a Strat neck pickup is the most important factor when it comes to the rather different tones of those two guitars played in the neck position - but is one of them 'better'?
Also, don't forget - lap steels have scales from 21 to 26 inches - if you always mount the pickup at 1 1/2", regardless of scale, the pickup will be ata different position with regards to the position of overtones on the string!
I found the position of mine by simply trying out different locations, and listening to what sounded best - and on mine it's at about 47 to 48 mm (1 7/8") from the bridge, anything closer to the bridge was to trebly and thin (and I prefer a thick, fat, bluesy tone). |
|
|
|
Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
|
Posted 23 Apr 2006 7:51 am
|
|
| Quote: |
| About body vibrations: you also have to add the resonance frequency - the frequency at which any solid material will vibrate if stimulated; the body will not only take over the vibration frequency from the strings, but also, provided there's enough transmission of energy, start vibrating itself at a certain frequency - the resonance frequency ... |
Thats why I included ... "wave reinforcement" here ...
| Quote: |
| Of course ... then there are things like .... stiffness vs mass ... elasticity issues ... wave reinforcment ... and about a million other variables involved also ... |
A look around that site I pointed to above ... will not only help explain this phenomenon ... but also give the exact frequencies that the different body styles/materials resonate at.
He also does many other cool experiments ... click on his homepage.
| Quote: |
| but wouldn't you agree that a pickup that is mounted to a pickguard (which is usually made of rather non-resonating, flexible plastic), or to the body, with foam rubber (which will damp pretty much any kind of vibration in the pickup), or with two tiny screws that only contact the pickup at two tiny edges/holes, and with springs that will also have a damping aspect on any vibrations, will pretty much be free from being influenced directly by body vibrations? |
Pretty much ... yes ... that is why I said I prefer to hard mount my pickups.
The ultimate in "hard mounting" is the Fender Trap pickup. Not only is it screwed down tight into the body ... the "lower lip" of the unit's housing ... is the bridge itself ...
As far as hard mount "adjustable height" pups ... the Supro style ... with its adjustable pole pieces ... will accomodate any need for fine tuning.
But as I said in my first post ... I want the bodies influence/participation ... as much as possible ...
To each his own ... 
------------------
Hawaiian Steel Stuff
The Casteels
|
|
|
|
Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
|
|
|
|
