Price of New Electric Steels

Rick Collins · Post by **Rick Collins** » 7 Apr 2006 8:06 pm

Mona Lisa is a metaphoric illustraton __ value greater than the sum total of its parts.

Bill Creller · Post by **Bill Creller** » 7 Apr 2006 9:56 pm

I didn't notice a mention of a case. A good case for a custom design, even one in production, isn't going to be inexpensive to build.

John Bushouse · Post by **John Bushouse** » 8 Apr 2006 7:34 am

I'll have to agree with Jeff on "some" electric steels. I have a maker or two in mind, MSA not being one of them.

Considering some very good Weissenborn-style acoustics can be had for $1,500, I have a hard time seeing how some basic lap steels, with one pickup, 6 strings, and no machined parts can cost as much - especially if the maker has some economies of scale.

I do know pickups can add a lot to the cost of the guitar, though.

Fred Shannon · Post by **Fred Shannon** » 8 Apr 2006 8:03 am

One thing for certain I don't "HAVE TO" buy one, like no arm twisting, threats, or violence involved. It is every individual's money and I would suppose one could spend it like they want to. And if I wanted one I would probably buy it, without consulting anyone.

Phred

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"From Truth, Justice is Born"--Quanah Parker-1904

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 8 Apr 2006 8:15 am

Holy cow that is a nice lookin gitfiddle Ron!! I am surprised to see the materials cost so much, i never would have imagined $300 for wood for example. That thing is art tho, far more than just a "plank".

I guess you could make the case that lap steels are the really inexpensive if you consider something like the Artisan. Its like most instruments, there is a wide range i price and quality. You can buy a $20 Rogue mandolin for example or spend $10,000 on a gibson F style.

I'd love to try building a lap steel someday (along with the billion other things I'd love to do someday)

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 8 Apr 2006 9:25 am

We steel players have it easy in some respects - it's all relative.

[This message was edited by Andy Volk on 10 April 2006 at 03:17 PM.]

Roy Thomson · Post by **Roy Thomson** » 8 Apr 2006 12:01 pm

Considering what the older and vintage steels are selling for I don't think prices on the new ones are out of line at all.
The Superslides and Ron's work as per the pictures above are "stunning" in design and appearance. I wish I could have one of each.

With a new guitar you can concentrate on the
playing with no worry for faulty connections
replacing parts etc etc.
Notwithstanding,, my three lap steels are
vintage and they serve me well but I still dream about a new one.
I've got lots of songs to play but it's the years I'm worring about. That's the only thing that holds me back from buying a new
non pedaler.

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http://www.clictab.com/RoyT/Roy_Thomson_Steel_Courses.htm

AJ Azure · Post by **AJ Azure** » 8 Apr 2006 12:01 pm

Being a dirt poor pro of semi-skill and talent I can say it's been quite frustrating that good musicians have such a hard time accessing good instruments. Music isn't a rich man's endeavor and it seems the real purchasers of these higher priced steels are in fact in another industry. That's definitely an artificial inflation of the market. This is true of other instrument markets as well. However,there used to be a time when musicians were supported by builders and there was more than just an economic relationship. Value of product and labor is another story and that comes down to the eye of the beholder.

-AJ

Craig Prior · Post by **Craig Prior** » 8 Apr 2006 1:36 pm

You know, one time on another forum I lamented that speculators and people with too dang much money poisoned the well from which musicians must drink.

No one was particularly sympathetic to me that time, as I suspect they won't be this time.

Craig.

Jon Kostal · Post by **Jon Kostal** » 8 Apr 2006 1:37 pm

These look good. Anybody use them?

GeorgeBoards

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Jon
Uncle Jons Music

[This message was edited by Jon Kostal on 08 April 2006 at 04:40 PM.]

Keith Cordell · Post by **Keith Cordell** » 9 Apr 2006 5:48 am

Yeah Craig, if you actually try to make a living at it you certainly can't afford to buy the tools, unless you have a pretty long history and can play other stuff too. It's been my lament for years, that the collectors and hobbyists were driving the prices of the guitars out of reach and simultaneously placing such importance on the vintage or value of the instument that a player loses face if he doesn't have an expensive instrument when he plays a show. New bands just starting out spend thousands of dollars they'll never likely get back from gig pay, just to get gear. It's why PSG has been such a difficult instrument to recruit new players to- it's become a rich mans hobby until very recently with the advent of some lower end (and not truly gig-worthy) instruments making their way onto the market. Similarly, you can get an Artisan cheaply, but if you show up at a gig with one as your primary instrument you better be good, 'cause the gearheads in the crowd will crucify you for having a cheap guitar.

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 9 Apr 2006 6:10 am

"It's been my lament for years, that the collectors and hobbyists were driving the prices of the guitars out of reach."

Oh, come on. As Andy has pointed out, the prices for professional grade instruments in every other category far outstrips steels. Mandolins are the price of a small house. Pianos, vintage guitars,not to mention classical instruments. Have you priced a trumpet lately? It will be $10k to get a professional grade instrument.

Steel players have it lucky. You can get the finest lap steel made for the price of a cheap mandolin. Any craft involves investment in the tools. Steel players are at the very low end of the price curve.

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 9 Apr 2006 6:27 am

Bill speaks the truth. A tricked out deluxe handmade pedal steel costs less than a midgrade handmade archtop guitar...and the finest nonpedals available are a great bargain compared to the rest of the instrument world.

Jon, I tried a single 8 GeorgeBoard last year and it was really excellent- very well made, beautiful wood, sounded great, felt very resonant.

As far as lamenting the prices- who would be crazy enough to choose poverty as a lifestyle (if there was a choice)? Not luthiers!

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As for the $ issue:

I lived broke for many years by choosing to be a performer. Lots of compromises. It was fun until I decided I'd like to raise a family at some point. No way around it; it is a shame how artists/musicians are not valued in our culture (I'm not talking the entertainment business. Neither are teachers, nurses, firefighters/EMTs/police, Veterans etc. but that's for another board!)

When you add up the number of hours luthiers put into an instrument vs. materials, cost and overhead, they are lucky if they make what a plumber makes.

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...
[This message was edited by John McGann on 09 April 2006 at 07:36 AM.]

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 9 Apr 2006 6:31 am

[Sarcasm ON] I really don't thinks it's right that skilled luthiers are able to make a living from their craft, it's much better they get a real job and spend all their spare time building nice and cheap instruments for us.
Same with professional musicians,- more than $100 for a gig? Outrageous, they should be happy there are people out there who wants to listen to somebody who's got nothing better to do than play music and drink beer. [Sarcasm OFF]

Steinar

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"Play to express, not to impress"
www.gregertsen.com
Southern Moon Northern Lights

[This message was edited by Steinar Gregertsen on 09 April 2006 at 07:32 AM.]

Bill Creller · Post by **Bill Creller** » 10 Apr 2006 8:42 am

Playing music or building guitars for a living= goin' hungry and broke.

Curtis Alford · Post by **Curtis Alford** » 10 Apr 2006 9:42 am

John Mc;
lucky to make what a plumber makes.
I know many musicans and quiet a few plumbers,some of the plumbers makes are $300,000 and are not company owners making money off some one else's labor.However, I do not know any musicians that are side men, that come any where close to that. I know some of the members of the best paying road bands in the nation.
Gotta watch the comparison to the plumber, the Doctor who handles your health care may be his pool boy.[This message was edited by Curtis Alford on 10 April 2006 at 10:44 AM.]

AJ Azure · Post by **AJ Azure** » 10 Apr 2006 9:53 am

Many classical players get subsidized Show me one mainstream styled player who is..Thus the insatrument comparison is partially irrelevant. Additionally, not one steel on the market is worked on in the way a cello is regardless of how much they are in fact worked on. The is fact the general public loves music. They turn to cheapskates when it comes to paying for it.Therefore, instrument prices are in no way congruent with the people who are most likely to use these pro tools. Builders used to nourish these people. Commercialism has destoyed this.

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 10 Apr 2006 10:00 am

Do we really want all our instruments to be made in China?

I really don't see the problem here,- it's possible to get a brand new lap steel for everything between $60 and $3K, what's there to complain about?
If you don't want to pay over $1K for a new lap steel, then don't - there are many good instruments to be had for less than that.

I haven't regretted for a second that I paid over $2K for my Asher, it's worth every cent and I know I have the very professional backup of Asher when/if I should need it.
I also love cheap guitars, I've recorded with instruments worth less than $150.

Enjoy the variety, and spend the money wherever you want to spend them...

Steinar

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"Play to express, not to impress"
www.gregertsen.com
Southern Moon Northern Lights

[This message was edited by Steinar Gregertsen on 10 April 2006 at 11:14 AM.]

Rick Collins · Post by **Rick Collins** » 10 Apr 2006 10:14 am

Do we really want all our instruments to be made in China?

I don't want anything made in China. And, I wish Wal-Mart would move there.

Jason Dumont · Post by **Jason Dumont** » 10 Apr 2006 12:00 pm

AMEN RICK! AMEN!
In fact I wish Guitar Center would move with them.

Here's a pic I thought I'd share. It's MY two Hands scraping ivoroid binding that I first had to heat to 400 degrees to set a proper bend around the waist. If you just glue it in the route , over time it just pulls away. Most don't know that. I'm using a scraper that I had just sharpened. I roll the burr to 5 degrees it tends to not rip out the curly maple when you get flush.
Anyway, I just thought I'd point out there is a craftsmen, a skilled, hard working craftsmen behind these new custom instruments being made.

[This message was edited by Jason Dumont on 10 April 2006 at 01:03 PM.][This message was edited by Jason Dumont on 10 April 2006 at 01:28 PM.][This message was edited by Jason Dumont on 10 April 2006 at 01:31 PM.]

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 10 Apr 2006 2:42 pm

If you apply the consumer price index to the new prices of yesteryear for resophonics, electric lap and pedal steels, you will see that the inflation-adjusted prices have changed very little. Pedal steels have actually gone down some, probably because of the large supply of used models that sell for very close to the original prices of 30 years ago. For example, Sho-Buds can be had in the $2000-$2500 range (todays money) that cost around $6000 new in inflation-adjusted dollars. For awhile I thought there were no reasonably priced good new resophonics, but the Beard Goldtone seems to have filled that gap. New mass produced 6-string electric lap steels can be had for a very reasonable few hundred bucks. I think there may be a gap in reasonably priced mass produced 8-string and D8 lap steels, probably because of the small demand. All in all, I'd say steelers are pretty lucky. I mostly buy used steels, and have a Zum S12, Emmons push/pull S12 and Sho-Bud D10 for a total of less than one top new pedal steel costs. These are all beautiful hand-assembled instruments that play and mostly look like the day they were made. When I first started playing steel in the '70s, I could only afford a used Maverick, and could only drool and dream about the gorgeous Pro III I recently bought for a song. I feel like we are living in a golden age for steel prices. I think all the manufacturers are turning out well priced, complicated hand-assembled instruments that they sell near costs for the love of it. I don't think any of them are getting rich.

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Student of the Steel: Zum uni, Fender tube amps, squareneck and roundneck resos, tenor sax, keyboards

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 10 Apr 2006 3:42 pm

Curtis, I was talking about what a luthier (instrument builder) makes compared to a plumber, not a musician.

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

[This message was edited by John McGann on 10 April 2006 at 04:43 PM.]

AJ Azure · Post by **AJ Azure** » 11 Apr 2006 12:57 pm

Here's a simple question to all those non-pro musicians. Do you know the average pay scale of a musician?

Jason, I don't dispute the level, time nor skill required in your work. However, I could post you a video of me composing a symphony and trust me that's not easy nor quick. Is said worked valued appropriately? When I am regularly asked to do it for free for an independant film or asked to do it for very little pay, not hardly. So if the average pro musician can't afford pro gear then high priced builders are just building boutique instruments for hobbyists with cash or a few select musicians who have MADE it.

Steinar, you know very well the $60 steels won't cut it in a pro situation.

Look I don't want something for nothing but, musicians are so truly devalued these days that I have to ask who exactly are builders building for?

Mike D · Post by **Mike D** » 11 Apr 2006 2:13 pm

That cuts both ways. If pro musicians are 'devalued' then what does that make a custom builder that makes $12 an hour when it's all said and done?
I've had people e-mail me asking me to build them a custom guitar with this and that feature...often they want to pay less than what the materials cost me. I hate to turn them down because I love to build, but even doing this part-time it's just not feasable to give them away.

Pro mucisians that want custom intsruments will usually fnd a way. As for hobbyists with cash, I enjoy making guitars for them just as much, and they certainly are just as entitled to a nice instrument if they can afford it.

Bottom line is that builders do it for the same reason that players do, because we love it, not because it pays.

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Half-assed bottleneck and lap slide player. Full-assed Builder of resonator instruments.

[This message was edited by Mike D on 11 April 2006 at 03:14 PM.][This message was edited by Mike D on 11 April 2006 at 03:15 PM.][This message was edited by Mike D on 11 April 2006 at 03:16 PM.]

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 11 Apr 2006 2:20 pm

AJ,- of course I know that, but it's a nice starter instrument, plus there's been stuff posted here (by Gene Jones?) that proved that even an Artisan can sound 'pro' in the right hands.

My point is that there's a variety of instruments available today, and just like most 'pros' won't buy a $60 instrument as their main tool, I doubt any beginners would buy a $2K Asher (and if they did - so what?).

My recording/mixing software (Nuendo) alone cost $2K, and that's just the software,- then add a variety of plugins, soundcard, computer, etc, and I'm sure we're talking $6-7K. The stuff on my pedalboard plus amp is somewhere around $1,5-2K. Spending $2K on a custom high-quality main instrument is really not that bad in this context..
As professionals we have to make investments, and then stand up for ourselves and fight for decent pay instead of demanding that other professionals (the luthiers) do their work for peanuts and a pat on the back.

Plus, as I wrote,- there ARE high quality instruments being made for less than $1K; Jason's 6-string lap steels are around $800, there's Loni's Lapdancer and Aero, Herb Remington and GeorgeBoard are offering great 8-string steels for less than a grand, there are many others that I can't remember right now - what's there to complain about?

Steinar

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"Play to express, not to impress"
www.gregertsen.com
Southern Moon Northern Lights

[This message was edited by Steinar Gregertsen on 11 April 2006 at 03:25 PM.]