Could someone tell me why the steel guitars in Europe are way more expensive then in the USA?I am not trying to talk anyone down(don't get me wrong)but it seems like most people in Europe are asking more then the sellers in the USA.Is it because they are not that easy to buy?Or is it because people think that they have something that is worth money?
I have seen 15 year old JCH steels go for the same price as a new Carter or BMI steel.Am I missing something here?
It can't be the fact that the mechanics were better in that era....'cause builders are constantly improving their guitars.Williams for example is constantly improving their changer units.Jackson came out with one beautiful guitar.And all for the same price as a European second hand steel.
I build steel guitars a couple years ago in The Netherlands.They were all Triple raise double lower,and I still remember the price I asked for them.A SD-10 with 4x5 was $1800 and a D-10 with 8x5 was $2495.Now I see pedal steel guitars go for more then $3500....second hand.
And they are over 10 years old.And let's face it.The technique from these days is way beyond superior compared to the steels back then.Take Carter for example.I never played one untill a couple weeks ago and I have to tell you...they are great.And I can buy a new Carter for the same price as a 15year old second hand steel goes for in Europe.People in Europe must see that to.And when you add everything up(taxes etc etc)then a new Carter or BMI...etc etc is cheaper then a second hand in Europe.
I bought a new Emmons LeGrandeII back in 1999 for $3500 and sold it for $2200 a couple years after that.That was a SD-10 with 4x6.That guitar was 3years old.Maybe I did it the wrong way but I wanted to help a steeler out.
Now a days it all seems to be about money.And not about the love for this instrument.
Just an Idea here...maybe some of us should start a factory over there and make some REAL$$$ over there.
This is not to put a boycot on the European market but I think that what is going on over there right now in the C&W sphere is a little out of proportion.
I might get flamed over this post but I think that this should be said.
Ron
European or American Import....
Moderator: Shoshanah Marohn
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Dustin Rigsby
- Posts: 1460
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- Location: Parts Unknown, Ohio
Re: European or American Import....
I think it has something to do with the euros=dollars ratioRon ! wrote:Could someone tell me why the steel guitars in Europe are way more expensive then in the USA?I am not trying to talk anyone down(don't get me wrong)but it seems like most people in Europe are asking more then the sellers in the USA.Is it because they are not that easy to buy?Or is it because people think that they have something that is worth money?
I have seen 15 year old JCH steels go for the same price as a new Carter or BMI steel.Am I missing something here?
It can't be the fact that the mechanics were better in that era....'cause builders are constantly improving their guitars.Williams for example is constantly improving their changer units.Jackson came out with one beautiful guitar.And all for the same price as a European second hand steel.
I build steel guitars a couple years ago in The Netherlands.They were all Triple raise double lower,and I still remember the price I asked for them.A SD-10 with 4x5 was $1800 and a D-10 with 8x5 was $2495.Now I see pedal steel guitars go for more then $3500....second hand.
And they are over 10 years old.And let's face it.The technique from these days is way beyond superior compared to the steels back then.Take Carter for example.I never played one untill a couple weeks ago and I have to tell you...they are great.And I can buy a new Carter for the same price as a 15year old second hand steel goes for in Europe.People in Europe must see that to.And when you add everything up(taxes etc etc)then a new Carter or BMI...etc etc is cheaper then a second hand in Europe.
I bought a new Emmons LeGrandeII back in 1999 for $3500 and sold it for $2200 a couple years after that.That was a SD-10 with 4x6.That guitar was 3years old.Maybe I did it the wrong way but I wanted to help a steeler out.
Now a days it all seems to be about money.And not about the love for this instrument.
Just an Idea here...maybe some of us should start a factory over there and make some REAL$$$ over there.
This is not to put a boycot on the European market but I think that what is going on over there right now in the C&W sphere is a little out of proportion.
I might get flamed over this post but I think that this should be said.
Ron
Dustin,
what you are trying to tell me is that when I buy a (example) new BMI for $2695 plus the 18'5% taxes on it I am better of to buy a 15 year old steel for the same ammount of money?Quick calculation makes that NEWsteel guitar even cheaper.
Wouldn't I be a thief of my own wallet if I bought that old steel instead of a brand new one?
Ron
what you are trying to tell me is that when I buy a (example) new BMI for $2695 plus the 18'5% taxes on it I am better of to buy a 15 year old steel for the same ammount of money?Quick calculation makes that NEWsteel guitar even cheaper.
Wouldn't I be a thief of my own wallet if I bought that old steel instead of a brand new one?
Ron
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Dustin Rigsby
- Posts: 1460
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- Location: Parts Unknown, Ohio
That was just my theory,ron....I don't know why the price on a guitar out of europe are like they are. I am only interested in owning a good used sho-bud. Quite frankly,I think the prices on used guitars in general are out of whack. For example...I saw a bud s-10 asking price of $1900.00 ! For that money you can own a NEW GFI,an extremely modern guitar !
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Brendan Mitchell
- Posts: 1506
- Joined: 26 Nov 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Melbourne Australia
Hey Ron
It's a similar situation here in Australia . First because there are not too many around { because they are so expensive ! } it is a sellers market . Most people don't even look at a new guitar , they think they will get a better price second hand . Second , the cost of importing into Australia is prohibitive , as well as the big shipping charge there is also a BIG tax to pay when it lands .
Brendan
It's a similar situation here in Australia . First because there are not too many around { because they are so expensive ! } it is a sellers market . Most people don't even look at a new guitar , they think they will get a better price second hand . Second , the cost of importing into Australia is prohibitive , as well as the big shipping charge there is also a BIG tax to pay when it lands .
Brendan
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Per Berner
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Not that complicated, really.
If I buy a new steel from the US for, lets say $3000, by the time it's on my doorstep the cost is up to $4300, including shipping, handling, taxes (VAT) and duties. If I should try sell it on at a later date, that's the sum I would calculate the depreciation from (and ultimately try to recoup); not the US net price. That is why buyers accept seemingly high prices on guitars that are already here, that they can try before they buy. And that is why a guitar that's gone to Europe will stay in Europe; since getting it back across the pond would add a further $300-400 to an already unreasonable price for an American buyer, who has a lot more to choose from nearby.
The fact that steels are rare beasts in these parts, and steel dealers even rarer, isn't helping either.
It's much worse when it comes to cars. A Mustang GT costs around $55,000 over here – but importing one yourself would cost about $20,000 less (not that I'd want one). Importers are simply adding a ginormous profit margin, and consequently sell just a handful (wonder why!). This is not the case when we buy steels factory direct from the US.
If I buy a new steel from the US for, lets say $3000, by the time it's on my doorstep the cost is up to $4300, including shipping, handling, taxes (VAT) and duties. If I should try sell it on at a later date, that's the sum I would calculate the depreciation from (and ultimately try to recoup); not the US net price. That is why buyers accept seemingly high prices on guitars that are already here, that they can try before they buy. And that is why a guitar that's gone to Europe will stay in Europe; since getting it back across the pond would add a further $300-400 to an already unreasonable price for an American buyer, who has a lot more to choose from nearby.
The fact that steels are rare beasts in these parts, and steel dealers even rarer, isn't helping either.
It's much worse when it comes to cars. A Mustang GT costs around $55,000 over here – but importing one yourself would cost about $20,000 less (not that I'd want one). Importers are simply adding a ginormous profit margin, and consequently sell just a handful (wonder why!). This is not the case when we buy steels factory direct from the US.
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CrowBear Schmitt
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Ron, this topic has been discussed a few times here already
i would have thought that you were hip to it
VAT or TVA varies according to the countries
in France it's 19.6 %
in Ireland, i believe it's 21 or 23 %
Spain is approx 16 % ?
Denmark has the highest one at 25 %
VAT/TVA will be applied to " Declared Value for Customs"
aside from VAT/TVA there is also a fee that Customs charge for havin' to handle the merchandise
FEDEX, UPS collect for the Customs & they also take a commission
last but not least : price of shipping comes into consideration since it's an expense
so i'll repeat : At the present time the US $ has lost 30 % of it's value against the €uro
which means that we Europeans get steels at the same price as Americans & gettin' shipping & customs duties almost for free
when i put steels up for sale here in Europa, it's obvious that i'm aiming at the European market
it would be outrageously expensive & rather sensless for an American or Canadian to cop them
For decades, Europa was a great place for Americans to have a holiday
the US $ was strong
Those times are over !
ask any Fo'Bro' that has been too Europa recently just how cheap a cup of coffee or a beer is here
Prices went up 20 % the day the €uro became the standard currency
Life is approx 40 % cheaper in the Good Ol' than here guys
i ain't jivin' ya'....
i would have thought that you were hip to it
ALSO : it all boils down to Value Added Tax on all imported goods that are NOT manufactured in the EEC/CEEAt the present time the US $ has lost 30 % of it's value against the €uro
VAT or TVA varies according to the countries
in France it's 19.6 %
in Ireland, i believe it's 21 or 23 %
Spain is approx 16 % ?
Denmark has the highest one at 25 %
VAT/TVA will be applied to " Declared Value for Customs"
aside from VAT/TVA there is also a fee that Customs charge for havin' to handle the merchandise
FEDEX, UPS collect for the Customs & they also take a commission
last but not least : price of shipping comes into consideration since it's an expense
so i'll repeat : At the present time the US $ has lost 30 % of it's value against the €uro
which means that we Europeans get steels at the same price as Americans & gettin' shipping & customs duties almost for free
when i put steels up for sale here in Europa, it's obvious that i'm aiming at the European market
it would be outrageously expensive & rather sensless for an American or Canadian to cop them
For decades, Europa was a great place for Americans to have a holiday
the US $ was strong
Those times are over !
ask any Fo'Bro' that has been too Europa recently just how cheap a cup of coffee or a beer is here
Prices went up 20 % the day the €uro became the standard currency
Life is approx 40 % cheaper in the Good Ol' than here guys
i ain't jivin' ya'....
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Roman Sonnleitner
- Posts: 759
- Joined: 27 Nov 2005 1:01 am
- Location: Vienna, Austria
The VAT/customs taxes may be part of the problem, but I guess the huge price difference is mainly due to the limited supply of pedal steels in Europe. There are almost no used steels available over here, I routinely scan Ebay, and there is at the very most 1 pedal steel on sale per month in the whole of Europe, whereas on US Ebay you can find at least 20 used steels at any given time.
It's the same with various other sources (shops, internet forums) for used instruments - at www.pedal-steel.de you'll also only find another one for sale every 2 or 3 month, and forget about finding a shop that has steels.
Of course that limited supply drives up prices - making it very difficult for beginners to start learning that instrument.
I personally would love to try out playing pedal steel (I "only" play lap steel at the moment), but there's no way I can justify spending a few thousand Euros (which I don't have in the first place...) on an instrument that I don't know whether I will be able to play.
There's a really thriving local alternative country scene here in Europe (esp. Germany, Austria,...), I now a few guys personally who would love to learn pedal steel, but most of them, being young guys, students, not rich, can't afford the entry price to the game.
It's the same with various other sources (shops, internet forums) for used instruments - at www.pedal-steel.de you'll also only find another one for sale every 2 or 3 month, and forget about finding a shop that has steels.
Of course that limited supply drives up prices - making it very difficult for beginners to start learning that instrument.
I personally would love to try out playing pedal steel (I "only" play lap steel at the moment), but there's no way I can justify spending a few thousand Euros (which I don't have in the first place...) on an instrument that I don't know whether I will be able to play.
There's a really thriving local alternative country scene here in Europe (esp. Germany, Austria,...), I now a few guys personally who would love to learn pedal steel, but most of them, being young guys, students, not rich, can't afford the entry price to the game.
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CrowBear Schmitt
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there are some great dealers here in Europa that deserve a lot of credit by offering a variety of steels at different budgets
most of their steels are American made, thus cleared havin' paid the import & VAT duties
these dealers deserve a commission too don't they ?
heck, i take a comm on stuff i get fer guys here & i ain't really a dealer
in some countries, like France, one is better off gettin' a steel from a steeler or buying from a European dealer, since there are no musik stores that handle PSGs here
very few even offer lap steels
Now i've become very chauvinistic cause i favor American made Steels
i find that they're built better, more choices or options, better bang for $, less waiting time
without mentioning a brand, how long does it take to get a student model from a European builder ?
3 to 6 months !
how long does it take to get a Carter Starter or a GFI ?
immediately & at half the price of a European student model !
now what seems odd is probably what Ron is askin' about
Since the US $ has lost 30 % of it's value against the €uro
how come the gear is so expensive ?
some 30 odd years back, i worked for the sole import agent for Peavey in France
to calculate his retail prices, he multiplied his wholesale price by 3
i believe this still holds especially for new gear only NOT used gear
most of their steels are American made, thus cleared havin' paid the import & VAT duties
these dealers deserve a commission too don't they ?
heck, i take a comm on stuff i get fer guys here & i ain't really a dealer
in some countries, like France, one is better off gettin' a steel from a steeler or buying from a European dealer, since there are no musik stores that handle PSGs here
very few even offer lap steels
Now i've become very chauvinistic cause i favor American made Steels
i find that they're built better, more choices or options, better bang for $, less waiting time
without mentioning a brand, how long does it take to get a student model from a European builder ?
3 to 6 months !
how long does it take to get a Carter Starter or a GFI ?
immediately & at half the price of a European student model !
now what seems odd is probably what Ron is askin' about
Since the US $ has lost 30 % of it's value against the €uro
how come the gear is so expensive ?
some 30 odd years back, i worked for the sole import agent for Peavey in France
to calculate his retail prices, he multiplied his wholesale price by 3
i believe this still holds especially for new gear only NOT used gear
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Roman Sonnleitner
- Posts: 759
- Joined: 27 Nov 2005 1:01 am
- Location: Vienna, Austria
CrowBear,
could you maybe mention some of those dealers?
I'm only aware of two dealers in all of Europe - Venmans in the Netherlands (who sells Carter Starters, BTW), and some shop in Ireland - Rainbow Music or something like that. I don't know of a single shop which regularly sells USED pedal steels...
BTW - your comment about 3 to 5 months waiting period for a European student steel - was that directed towards WBS from Germany (the only European maker I know who makes student steels).
could you maybe mention some of those dealers?
I'm only aware of two dealers in all of Europe - Venmans in the Netherlands (who sells Carter Starters, BTW), and some shop in Ireland - Rainbow Music or something like that. I don't know of a single shop which regularly sells USED pedal steels...
BTW - your comment about 3 to 5 months waiting period for a European student steel - was that directed towards WBS from Germany (the only European maker I know who makes student steels).
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CrowBear Schmitt
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there are a few more dealers Roman, at least 2 more
we European steelers know who they are & are glad that they're around
lookee here : http://b0b.com/links/stores.html
i won't give any names dig
seek & yee shall find
we European steelers know who they are & are glad that they're around
lookee here : http://b0b.com/links/stores.html
i won't give any names dig
seek & yee shall find
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Wolfgang Bednarz
- Posts: 153
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- Location: 97848 Rechtenbach/GERMANY
- Contact:
it is not true that a WBS Student 1 has a waiting time from 4-5 months. When you buy the standard model by a stocking dealer like Thoman in germany or Lonestar Productions in France you can get it very quick. When you buy direct and with options like color, longer-shorter legs, pickup, setuo etc. you have a waiting time from max 3 months. I`m also a lot behind my work like other one man companys. The american steels are not better than the europe ones, they cooking only with water like we here in europe. The reason that europe steels are a lttle higher in the price is the cost of aluminuim. It cost a lot more than in the USA. Used Steels are more expensive for the reason that they was mportet from US some time. Shipping VAT etc. ..you have to add that on the price.
Wolfgang
www.wbssteelguitars.com
www.steelguitarshop.de
Wolfgang
www.wbssteelguitars.com
www.steelguitarshop.de
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Wolfgang Bednarz
- Posts: 153
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- Location: 97848 Rechtenbach/GERMANY
- Contact:
it is not true that a WBS Student 1 has a waiting time from 4-5 months. When you buy the standard model by a stocking dealer like Thoman in germany or Lonestar Productions in France you can get it very quick. When you buy direct and with options like color, longer-shorter legs, pickup, setuo etc. you have a waiting time from max 3 months. I`m also a lot behind my work like other one man companys. The american steels are not better than the europe ones, they cooking only with water like we here in europe. The reason that europe steels are a lttle higher in the price is the cost of aluminuim. It cost a lot more than in the USA. Used Steels are more expensive for the reason that they was importet from US some time. Shipping VAT etc. ..you have to add that on the price.
Wolfgang
www.wbssteelguitars.com
www.steelguitarshop.de
Wolfgang
www.wbssteelguitars.com
www.steelguitarshop.de
When I bought my first pedal steel (ZB twin 10) the Pound was worth $1.50 US. The GB Pound is now worth almost 2 dollars. A great time to buy anything from the States, and an even better time to fly over and holiday.
Now if we could just overcome this customs and VAT problem we would have it all cracked and a new steel guitar would be a very appealing proposition.
Now if we could just overcome this customs and VAT problem we would have it all cracked and a new steel guitar would be a very appealing proposition.
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Jim Gorrie
- Posts: 603
- Joined: 28 Nov 2005 1:01 am
- Location: Edinburgh ~ road works congestion capital of The World.
Jim,
take a look at "Venmans" web-site in The Netherlands.Click on the GFI steel guitars.
And you will see the prices that he is handling.Not that bad I have to say.
http://www.mp-venmans.nl/
Ron
take a look at "Venmans" web-site in The Netherlands.Click on the GFI steel guitars.
And you will see the prices that he is handling.Not that bad I have to say.
http://www.mp-venmans.nl/
Ron
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Jeremy Threlfall
- Posts: 1380
- Joined: 3 Aug 2006 12:01 am
- Location: now in Western Australia
Second Hand (25 uear old, but nice) Pro 1 = US$1700
Freight to Australia = US$500
Cost Landed in AUS = AUS$2933
Duty on Guitar and Freight (5%) = AUS$146.65
GST on Guitar, Freight and Duty (10%) = AUS$307.96
Import Broker/Clearance = AUS$65
Bank Fees for Funds transfer to US = AUS$28
Total AUS = $3480.61 (US$2610.45)
Its the freight, man. I wish I had the wherewithall to come over to the 'states with a fistful of dollars and a shipping container.
MSA Vintage D10 http://www.northcoastguitars.com.au/msa.html
Emmons D10
http://www.brissteelguitar.com/For%20Sale.htm
I sold my Carter Starter on the Brisbane Club website for more than what they cost new in the 'States
Freight to Australia = US$500
Cost Landed in AUS = AUS$2933
Duty on Guitar and Freight (5%) = AUS$146.65
GST on Guitar, Freight and Duty (10%) = AUS$307.96
Import Broker/Clearance = AUS$65
Bank Fees for Funds transfer to US = AUS$28
Total AUS = $3480.61 (US$2610.45)
Its the freight, man. I wish I had the wherewithall to come over to the 'states with a fistful of dollars and a shipping container.
MSA Vintage D10 http://www.northcoastguitars.com.au/msa.html
Emmons D10
http://www.brissteelguitar.com/For%20Sale.htm
I sold my Carter Starter on the Brisbane Club website for more than what they cost new in the 'States
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Roman Sonnleitner
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- Location: Vienna, Austria
Ron,
yeah, I know about the Carter Starter for 799 EUR from Venmans - seems to be the most affordable option over here, but unfortunately that model (like most student steels) is E9 only, and I'm thinking about getting something for C6 or B6, as I'm already quite familiar with the C6 tuning on my lapsteels.
yeah, I know about the Carter Starter for 799 EUR from Venmans - seems to be the most affordable option over here, but unfortunately that model (like most student steels) is E9 only, and I'm thinking about getting something for C6 or B6, as I'm already quite familiar with the C6 tuning on my lapsteels.
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CrowBear Schmitt
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- Location: Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France
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here's an example too :
Sho Bud Pro III : 1 800 $
FedEx Shipping : ...365 $
Customs Duties : ...360 $
Misc Charges : .......75 $
----------------------------
------------Total : 2 600 $ = 2 000 €
in this case i have'nt taken a comm
if i had it would be between 10 & 20 % on the price of the instrument only
Sho Bud Pro III : 1 800 $
FedEx Shipping : ...365 $
Customs Duties : ...360 $
Misc Charges : .......75 $
----------------------------
------------Total : 2 600 $ = 2 000 €
in this case i have'nt taken a comm
if i had it would be between 10 & 20 % on the price of the instrument only
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Alan Brookes
- Posts: 13218
- Joined: 29 Mar 2006 1:01 am
- Location: Brummy living in Southern California
Re: European or American Import....
It's supply and demand. The USA has the biggest market for pedal steels. There are a lot more sold and a lot more suppliers.Ron ! wrote:Could someone tell me why the steel guitars in Europe are way more expensive then in the USA?
My experience of living 31 years in England and then 30 years in California is that almost everything is cheaper in the USA, including goods made in the UK.