Why not add an extra D string to the universal?

Cliff Kane · Post by **Cliff Kane** » 15 Jan 2007 10:54 am

I'm wondering if this is a good idea: it seems that one of the main things E9 players don't like about the E9/B6 universal tuning is the absence of the straight-up D string that does not have to be accessed with a lever. Why not add a D string? If one had a 13 string guitar one could put a D in the 9th string position between the E and the B. Wouldn't that restore the E9 tuning that people like? Couldn't that D string then be raised to Eb or lowered to B for the change the B6 tuning—somehow incorporating it with the E's-lower lock so that the B6 side would stay as is?

I know that most universals are 12 string guitars, but would this be an improvement to the loss of the D that people don't like? If this sounds like it would work, do any builders consider this an option to offer to the crowd that requires the straight-up D, perhaps a 13 string "E9addD/B6" version? If this was applied to a 12 string universal, is there a string that could happily be sacrificed to allow a D string as its replacement? I've been looking at the tuning charts, and this seems like it might work.

Thanks,
Cliff

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 15 Jan 2007 11:03 am

Hey Cliff, I think it'd work very well and even on a 12 string. I heard a while back that some C6th players had been dropping the low C string and adding a D note in the 7th slot. I decided to try it so I dropped my low B string and put a C# note in position 9. I like the C# as it's a II in the B scale and very usable. A player who wanted the D note in the 9th slot could add another lower on the lever which lowers his E strings which lowered the 9th string to C# along with it and go from there. That one string has added some nice positions for soloing in the lower registers and I don't miss the low B at all!....JH in Va.

Mike Wheeler · Post by **Mike Wheeler** » 15 Jan 2007 11:11 am

I believe the main reason that 12 string Universal players, for the most part, don't have that low D string, is because with the E to D# lever thrown, you have a real "6th" tuning. Having the D string in there would throw off the grips and fowl up a lot of those great chord strums that are available.

Rick Schmidt · Post by **Rick Schmidt** » 15 Jan 2007 11:13 am

I've thought about the 13 string idea too Cliff, and I'm sure we arent the only ones....I know Jim Smith tried this but went back to the D12.

I was thinking that if you lowered the D on the same lever as the E-Eb's, you would have the equivilant to the "D" (now a C# in this case) that I've heard BE and Terry Crisp have been toying with on their C6 necks.

Thanks for posting this. I'm curious too.

Colby Tipton · Post by **Colby Tipton** » 15 Jan 2007 11:25 am

To me it takes a little getting used to not having the D string but I work around it with what I have and it's o.k..

Colby

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 15 Jan 2007 11:32 am

Many 12 string uni players are converted D-10 players. The B6 side of the E9/B6 tuning uses the exact same grips as C6. This is the elegance of the concept, taking a C6 tuning but transposing it to B6 so that it folds seamlessly into the E9. If relearning the grips for standard C6 stuff doesn't faze someone, or if traditional C6 picking is not one's focus then sure, why not?

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 15 Jan 2007 12:24 pm

Well, I for one have never understood the obsession with the D string. On my S12U I can get it with a lever when I need it, and it’s not there in the way otherwise. With the lever, when you move off of the D, you don’t have to worry about blocking it. So I actually prefer it that way. On 10-string E9 my thumb was use to missing the D string to go down and grab that one B string. But when I got an extended E9 S12, then all my fingers (and I sometimes play with 4) had to avoid it to go down and use the three strings that were down below it, and it was just too complicated. When I got a universal, all that cleared up and it was so much easier for me. And I would not want that D in the middle of my B6 mode. So I would not want the D even if I had a 13-string and didn’t lose anything else. And I certainly would not want to lose the low B for E9 mode or B6 mode. That string is the low root (C#) for power chords with the A/F combination, and for the A-pedal minor position, which is my favorite position for minor blues and blues-based jazz.

I’m sure players who have had the D string for years have learned a lot of stuff to do with it. But the same would be true for any extra string, pedal, or lever. I just don’t see it as that special. With the additional low E9 strings and the whole B6 mode, there is certainly a lot more that you gain with a uni than you lose by not having a D string. It’s just not an issue with me – I’ve moved on and would not want to give anything up to get the D string back. I suppose you could go to a 13- or 14-string. I wouldn’t mind having a low G#/A down there. But that would be a huge string, with no sustain, unless you went to a much longer neck (which would cause problems with the 3rd string). The low B is already pretty clunky. You have to draw the line somewhere, and for me it’s at 12 strings. The more you move toward a harp-like diatonic tuning, the more you lose in simplicity and maneuverability – I mean there are some people that do wonders with 6 or 8 strings.

But that’s all just my style and my opinion. I don’t want to get in the way of a discussion among those who really want 12-14 strings with a D in there somehow.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 15 Jan 2007 12:28 pm

I have a middle D on my C6th anyway. If I had to play a U-12, I'd keep the D and do without the low B. Hey, wait a minute! That would make it Extended E9th, which is what I play anyway!

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 15 Jan 2007 12:37 pm

I decided to lose that useless low B, and now it all fits on a regular 12 string. Hey, wait a minute, that's what b0b said!

Fred Glave · Post by **Fred Glave** » 15 Jan 2007 2:34 pm

I like using the RKR to raise B to D. It gives us the abilty to bend into the D, and you can do a lot of suspended stuff, and also do old fashion rock and roll rythm guitar/blues comping. It actually opens more doors for my style of playing. I like your thoughts on the idea though. I just don't know where I'd put the open D with my copedent.

Larry Lorows · Post by **Larry Lorows** » 15 Jan 2007 5:06 pm

Putting a D string on my U12 would be the last thing I'd ever want to do. Where would all the big full C6 chords be? I like the low B for the Boowah sound, so I would never change that either. Larry

Bob Ritter · Post by **Bob Ritter** » 15 Jan 2007 7:29 pm

well I suppose you could put it on the guitar then set up the D string to lower to the B note on the same lever that lowers your E's when you play the B6 tuning....Does this make sense to anybody.?

John McClung · Post by **John McClung** » 15 Jan 2007 10:57 pm

My buddy Don McClellan did exactly that years ago on a custom 13-string Kline. He struggled with it for years, but the problems quickly outweighed the supposed advantages, and he told me he was sorry he wasted so many years struggling with that setup.

He's now on a 12-string universal. Don, chime in if you read this, hope I quoted you correctly.

Rick Schmidt: on my Carter SD-10 I lower the D to C# with my E's lowering, and really like that, gets rid of the out of scale note when playing B6. Haven't added that to my Mullen yet, but plan to. I haven't found any problems it causes, maybe others know more about it.

Olli Haavisto · Post by **Olli Haavisto** » 16 Jan 2007 12:49 am

As a recent D-10 to U-12 convert I`d say that the thing I like about uni the most is the strummable bottom in the E9 mode , open and closed positions. I was sure I couldn`t live without the D string , so I first got an ext E9 and one bored day converted the bottom to uni , just to check it out. Played it for two days and was so used to having the D pulled from the 9th string B that I never changed it back. Added the pedals to make a 7x5 , sold the D-10s , ordered an other U-12.....

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 16 Jan 2007 7:50 am

I'm not wild about the dom. 7th, so str. 9 is C#, raised to D with RKR. Makes for a nice AM9.

James Quackenbush · Post by **James Quackenbush** » 16 Jan 2007 7:56 am

I think that we're all pretty much creatures of habit .... It's all a matter of what one is use to playing ... I can also agree for the most part how some folks would not have a problem dropping the low B on a Uni 12, as most Universal steels out there don't really sound off that low B string to make it worth having ... The low B on a steel that can't reproduce the string clearly basically will give nothing more than a flubby unclear note ... The longer scaled pedal steels that have more tension on the strings allow for a much more clear toned B string ... I wouldn't want to do without mine with the style I play ...I switched to Uni 12 early in my playing so , it was a pretty easy switch for me ...I don't miss the D string as I can get it with a lever anyway , but can fully understand how someone who started and stayed with a a D10 or any 10 string would not want to do without it ... Jim