Excel Keyless 3rd string

Michael Brewer · Post by **Michael Brewer** » 31 Dec 2006 1:23 pm

Jim Q.

On my guitar, the fork that catches the string ball sits immediately behind the roller. When the string is tuned the fork falls and the string is pulled over the roller with about 60 degrees of contact. I have to take a lot of care to make sure that the twist does not contact the roller. I just did a close inspection and found that on four of my strings had the end of the twist actually out in front of the roller. I haven't noticed any change in performance but there is a good chance that the string could break at this point like yours. I am going to change these immediatly. I am using Jagwire strings and the next ones I buy will have the short twist.

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 31 Dec 2006 1:46 pm

One thing that I've noticed from Jim's photos, is that if the string is not pulled as tight as possible when it is initially clamped, the tuning mechanism has to move a long way to get the string up to pitch, which could be a factor in this problem.

James Quackenbush · Post by **James Quackenbush** » 31 Dec 2006 2:41 pm

Michael,
It's scary how we saw the same thing ....I think it was the Pedalmaster tuner that got me thinking the same way ....I'm thinking maybe putting the ball end in the fork, the way it normally goes, and then wrap the string around the newly drilled screw and then over the roller, and on to the changer end where it's also screwed down ...Then there would be no tension at all on the windings ....The ball end of the string would be attached to the fork normally for added protection...It would really be doing nothing !!...I wonder if I just cut the ball end off of the string , and I added a screw to the top of the string puller, if the screw alone would hold the string in place when it's being tuned ??....Would that one screw be enough ?... Sincerely, Jim

James Quackenbush · Post by **James Quackenbush** » 31 Dec 2006 2:53 pm

Richard,
You are correct in your assumption....I have always brought the string puller ( for tuning ) as close to the rollers as I can get it ...I then have a wooden dowel on the other end of the string , and I pull the string as tight as I can , and THEN I screw down the screws to hold the string ....Then I try to tune the string ...As you said, if I don't pull hard on the string and adjust it as above , the string puller in fact DOES go too far back and snaps the string WAY before it comes up to the G#...
I'm almost convinced at this point that the cause of the string breaking is the fact that the winding has too much pressure on it as it is forced against the string puller at too sharp of an angle ...If I had no tension on the string winding , I think I would be home free ... If I added a screw to the top of the string puller, that would eliminate any of the winding touching ANYTHING !!....It would look weird on one string, but I think it would work ...Jim

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 31 Dec 2006 4:34 pm

If you do the thing with the screw,don't wrap the string all the way around the screw because it will break where it crosses itself. Just pass it under the screwhead on one side - the right side - and let the lip of the screwhead catch the string as it passes by. The reason I say the right side is because you want the tightening of the screw to tighten the string as you turn the screw in a clockwise direction. I was thinking that you should do it on all the strings but yeah you could actually just do it only on the 3rd string.

tom anderson · Post by **tom anderson** » 1 Jan 2007 9:51 am

I would NOT under any condition drill holes and add screws to the changer. Send it back to Scotty & have it worked on there or by Mitsuo. They will eventually be able to fix this problem. That is what your warranty is for. Good Luck.

James Quackenbush · Post by **James Quackenbush** » 1 Jan 2007 10:31 am

Michael,
Yeah, I see what you're saying exactly ...Good idea !!....

Tom A .....Are you the guitar builder Tom Anderson ?

I will not do any mods unless it's a last resort ...I have already been assured from Don Curtis and Scotties that he will do whatever it takes to make this steel right .... I have complete confidence in Don, and in Scotty, and in Mitsuo to remedy this situation .. This conversation on the forum is just in case all else fails, and also in search of an easy fix short of sending my steel away .... It's good to know that there is a great bunch of guys here , that have some great idea's .... The pedal steel is a very mechanical devise , and there are many who have " been there, done that " to their steels when there were no warranty's .... I understand what you are saying though, and I appreciate your input ....Happy New Year ....Sincerely, Jim

Mike Wheeler · Post by **Mike Wheeler** » 2 Jan 2007 6:14 am

Just FYI....

Back in the early to mid 80s I had a deal with a popular string company to supply my band with all the strings we wanted (endorsement deal). At one point we started to have breakage issues with some of the smaller gauges. After several breaks on stage, I called them and politely complained. They explained that we had apparently received a bad batch of strings. 2 days later we had a new shipment and the breaks immediately stopped.

My point is that string breakage isn't necessarily due to the gauge or the guitar. If you buy a bunch of .011s all at one time, and have severe breakage problems, you, too, may have bought from a bad batch. If you go back to the same supplier for more, you'll likely get more of the same. Find a new supplier for a while. Then, after a couple months, return to your original supplier...by then the defective strings should be gone and a new shippment would have taken their place.

I know others have done this as well. These mysterious string breakage problems might not be caused by our guitars at all. YMMV

James Quackenbush · Post by **James Quackenbush** » 2 Jan 2007 6:42 am

Mike,
I completely agree with what you are saying ...I bought some Jagwires from b0b and the forum ...I got 5 - .011's and 5-.0115's...I assume that they are from the same batch ..They came very close to pitch , but still broke off at the end of the winding each time...I broke 2 of each ....I then took the same .011 and .0115 string from the same batch, and strung them up on my Sierra 25" scale U-12....I had no problem at all with them ...They worked fine ....For how long, I don't know, because I took one off, and tried the next one ....I tried the .0115 first , and unscewed my adjustment, and brought everything up to the G# slowly, and then added more and more of the raise until it came up to the A on my 2nd pedal ...I then backed off on the raise adjustment again, and put the .011 string on ....BOTH strings held just fine on the Sierra ...This tells me that there is a problem with the design of the Excel...The design does not allow me to use Jagwire stings, however, it might allow me to use some of the reinforced strings that Don Curtis sent me ...I haven't recieved them yet, and I will know better when I try them on my Excel ...Either way, as Michael B. stated, I should be able to use the string of my choice as I have been able to do on my Sierra ... Don will run things by Mitsuo, and see what he can come up with ...I have the utmost faith in Don as he knows Mitsuo , and can converse with him better than I can ...I will send along drawings of what I think could be done to the string pullers to eliminate the string breaking problem, but I am not an engineer, and Mitsuo would know better if my design will work or not work ... I'm convinced that it WILL work as I have seen similar design's on other pedal steels ... It's all a "wait and see" situation at this point ... I'll keep the forum posted...Thanks for your input ...Sincerely, Jim

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 2 Jan 2007 7:03 am

There's also a Japanese guy named Keni who's a guitar tech at Performance Guitars in Hollywood. He grew up,played in bands with Mitsuo and worked at Excel in Japan for a while also. He's in touch with Mitsuo and speaks very fluent English.Mitsuo brought him along for an Excel owners get together here in L.A. a couple years ago and I realized I'd bought pickups and other guitar parts from him over a period of years down at Performance Guitars. So if there's no joy with the Don/Scotty connection and you want someone who can translate deep technical ideas into Japanese for you and maybe be your go-between - which he once offered to to do for me,you can check out Keni (pronounced "Kenny"). To be fair however,I've not had any problems communicating with Mitsuo over my oddball needs like extra long pedals and custom knee levers.It may take a couple e-mails to be sure we understand each other but so far so good. Mitsuo is very forthcoming and accommidating in my experience.

James Quackenbush · Post by **James Quackenbush** » 2 Jan 2007 1:06 pm

Michael J,
Do you have a link, or a phone number or any other info on Performance Guitars in Hollywood ??...I did a search, and you can only imagine what came up with "performance guitars " ...
Thanks bud !!...I appreciate it ...Sincerely, Jim

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 2 Jan 2007 5:43 pm

Yeah - go here and scroll to the bottom of the page for contact info.
http://www.performanceguitar.com/

James Quackenbush · Post by **James Quackenbush** » 3 Jan 2007 7:27 am

Michael,
Thanks for the link !!....I'll keep you posted...Sincerely, Jim

James Quackenbush · Post by **James Quackenbush** » 5 Jan 2007 10:22 am

OK guys and gals,
Here's the deal ....Don Curtis sent me some .011 reinforced strings to check out ....Although there may be a problem with the design, or perhaps just the longer scale, and the fact that I do have a keyless setup, with no give in the string as you do with a keyed setup , I have to use reinforced strings for my 3rd string ....I first tried an Ernie ball reinforced string which looked very promising ....It came up to to the G# with no problem...Then I slowly tuned my pull to go up to A in small increments, all the time hitting my 2nd pedal to stretch the string slowly ...I got it to bend up to the A once, and then it lost the G# when coming back down ...I broght it back up to the G# in the open tuning , and stepped on the pedal and SNAPPEROO !!.... Here's the twist on this one ...The string may have been defective as the string broke down at the CHANGER end , and not up on the winding's !!..This was a switch !!...The string actually broke going from the changer toward the pickup..Nothing rubbing , just a bare string break !!....
I then tried out an SIT reinforced string ...I was not all that impressed with the string winding on it , but I tried it anyhow ...I brought it up slowly to the G#, and then slowly brought up the raise to A .... BINGO !!....This string has been holding for 3 days now !!.... Looking at the other strings , I see that the George L looks REALLY NICE in the fact that it has a heavy duty winding that goes long, and looks like it will work REALLY WELL....I haven't tried it yet, but it sure looks promising ....So what I will do now is to buy the 3rd string that works the best for me , and use it , and then use my string set of choice for the rest of the strings .... After reading Karlis' chart , and seeing that my 3rd string is the 2nd most stressed string in the group has me somewhat worried ...I will order a couple of set's of strings from b0b and check it out from there ...The irony of it all ??....Mitsuo put's SIT strings on every Excel that he builds !!.... I don't like being tied to one string set, but I will live with having a few reinforced 3rd strings to use , if I can use my choice of sets for the rest of the strings .... Here's hoping !!.....Thanks to all of you for your help !!...It means a lot to me ....THIS is what this forum is all about, and why I continue to support the forum ...I have made a lot of good friends on this forum , and you won't find a better bunch of guys and gals to deal with ....I appreciate all the help ....Sincerely, Jim

Alan Cook · Post by **Alan Cook** » 21 Aug 2009 6:41 am

Hi James

Have you resolved this now?
What string type, make and size do you use?

I have just bought an Excel 12U keyless and have snapped about 8 George LLs trying to replace the 3rd string

Alan

Mike Vallandigham · Post by **Mike Vallandigham** » 21 Aug 2009 8:23 am

On Mine, I found a bit of a sharp edge on the slot that holds the ball end. Where the string arches over the tuning finger, there was a transition from the smooth arch, to the drilled hole that was sharp. I hit it real lightly with a file and have not broken any more strings. I broke all I had (3) before figuring it out.

Also, as Mr. Burton said, you need to get them tight before you clamp it down and tune it up. The more you have to run up the tuning screw, the finger arches in such a way as to put this sharp spot more directly on the string.

Nothing wrong with these guits, justneed a few tricks.

Alan Cook · Post by **Alan Cook** » 21 Aug 2009 9:10 am

Thanks Mike

I have just removed two very small burrs and fitted a new 11 snapped in a about 2 mins. What string make and gauge are you using? I've tried all the other tips I can find.

Alan

Mike Vallandigham · Post by **Mike Vallandigham** » 21 Aug 2009 9:34 am

Alan,

I'm using an .011, and it was an ernie ball replacement string...lol.

you might try tuning it up and watching (maybe with safety glasses on) to see where that string presses on the edge, I rounded off that edge,to allow the string a nice smooth ramp from where it's held at the ball to the crest of the tuning finger. Also, pulling the string as tight as you can (use a handle of some sort) will decrease the angle which the string passes overthe trouble spot.

Can u post a nice close-up of the tuning head (3rd string)?

Alan Cook · Post by **Alan Cook** » 21 Aug 2009 9:50 am

The string is snapping on the point of the changer cam. I have polished out any marks on the cam and had a magnifying glass on the area to check its Ok. I am out of strings now so I will have to put an order in and try again when they arrive. I am also pulling the string tight so It's not that and the string would be snapping at that end if it was I think.

Thanks for your help Mike I'll try and take a pic later.

Alan

Mike Vallandigham · Post by **Mike Vallandigham** » 21 Aug 2009 10:35 am

OH!! I thought it was at the keyhead end.

disregard my previous points...

Perhaps the underside of the screw that locks the string it cutting the string somehow...

annoying, I'm sure.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 21 Aug 2009 11:26 am

Michael said;
"The reason I say the right side is because you want the tightening of the screw to tighten the string as you turn the screw in a clockwise direction."

I believe that's the opposite of what I was told when I bought my Kline. Wind CCW, and the tension on the string keeps the screw tight, CW, and the tension wants to loosen the screw. No string breakage problem, and it stays in tune forever! Makes me wonder,,,,,,,

James Quackenbush · Post by **James Quackenbush** » 21 Aug 2009 2:13 pm

Alan,
I did the polish trick and a de burr trick and neither helped at all .....The problem was 2 fold .....

1) Use NEW SIT strings.....Don't buy a bunch for later ...NEW STRINGS only ...

2) When putting the 3rd string on , try to pull the string as close to pitch as you can ....Pull it like you mean it !!!!....The less you have to turn the adjustment screw to bring the string up to pitch, the better off you will be ....

After EVERYTHING I did , this is what I found to work the best , and believe me , I tried EVERYTHING except sending this steel back ....Try it , and let me know ....Hope this helps....Jim

PS...Once it's set up , you're gonna LOVE this steel !!!.

James Quackenbush · Post by **James Quackenbush** » 21 Aug 2009 2:17 pm

John,
I have had Sierra's that I had no string problem on ....I also have a Kline that has no string breakage problems simply because the scale length is much shorter and the strings have much less tension on them .....I can use any brand strings on my Kline ....Jim

James Quackenbush · Post by **James Quackenbush** » 21 Aug 2009 2:19 pm

Alan,
I did the polish trick and a de burr trick and neither helped at all .....The problem was 2 fold .....

1) Use NEW SIT strings.....Don't buy a bunch for later ...NEW STRINGS only ...

2) When putting the 3rd string on , try to pull the string as close to pitch as you can ....Pull it like you mean it !!!!....The less you have to turn the adjustment screw to bring the string up to pitch, the better off you will be ....

After EVERYTHING I did , this is what I found to work the best , and believe me , I tried EVERYTHING except sending this steel back ....Try it , and let me know ....Hope this helps....Jim

PS...Once it's set up , you're gonna LOVE this steel !!!.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 21 Aug 2009 2:39 pm

Jim'
I understand that! I was just somewhat curious about the two different schools of thought concerning which way to wrap a string around a screw. The advice about pulling the string as close as possible to pitch before fastening it is very good advice! I always carry one of those "multi-tool" things in my steel seat, and use the pliers to grab the 3rd string and pull it. That's the only string that bites into my fingies when I pull on it/ Love my Kline!
JB
PS?: Which way do you wrap the strings on your Kline?

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