Fine tuning the dobro 3rd.

Bryan Bradfield · Post by **Bryan Bradfield** » 25 Dec 2006 7:33 am

After reading the post "capo hell" in the music section, I was reminded of how I fine tune my dobro 3rd string. I use a heavy 0.026 plain string for the 3rd string G. I run a freshly sharpened HB lead pencil tip generously in each string slot every time I change strings. However, this string drives me nuts when trying to get to pitch using the tuner. I use Schaller tuners on my dobros, and they are in good condition.

After I am close to pitch, either slightly sharp or flat, I have had the most success in getting accurately to pitch by pushing down on the string behind the nut (tuning key side of the nut) to sharp (raise) the string's pitch, or pulling the string on the resonator side to lower (flatten) the note.

For the 3rd string, I also use this technique while playing, whereas with the other five strings, I'll crank on the tuner to fine tune while playing.

Does anyone else have problems with getting the 3rd string to accurate pitch, and if so, what is your solution?

Howard Parker · Post by **Howard Parker** » 25 Dec 2006 8:06 am

<SMALL>Does anyone else have problems with getting the 3rd string to accurate pitch, and if so, what is your solution?</SMALL>

No more than any other string. Are you flattening the thirds? If so, maybe the degree of tempering is changing with a perception of pitch as you play.

I don't have any personal experience with plain .026's, except to know they weren't for me

.

cheers

hp

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Howard Parker
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Edward Meisse · Post by **Edward Meisse** » 25 Dec 2006 8:47 am

Funny you should mention that. I tune to a C6 with the E on top on my Weisse. My 3rd string (A) is very hard to get precisely in tune. I've noticed that I'm using a heavier string than most people, a 22 as opposed to a 20. So I'm going to try a 20. So my question would be-have you tried a 24 as opposed to a 26?

David Cook · Post by **David Cook** » 25 Dec 2006 10:09 am

Hi, Maybe you should use a wound .026

Bryan Bradfield · Post by **Bryan Bradfield** » 25 Dec 2006 11:54 am

The topic of 3rd string gauges has been covered in previous No Peddler threads -

Topic: "Dobro 3rd string G" at http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum2/HTML/006418.html

and

Topic: "Why do my G strings go bad so quickly?" at http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum2/HTML/009957.html

Howard: The degree of initial flattening of 3rd's is not an issue with me. Detuning of the 3rd during a set is the issue.

Edward: I've tried all of the reasonable gauges of wound and plain strings in the 3rd string range, and I settled on an "unreasonable" guage, I admit.

I have settled on the gauge of 3rd that I like for tone, volume, & longevity. I'm not really complaining about this tuning dilemma, or asking for advice on how to eliminate the tuning problem. I am saying that I've found my personal method for dealing with the dilemma, and am wondering if anyone else has a similar dilemma, and if so, how do you deal with it?

Mike Fried · Post by **Mike Fried** » 25 Dec 2006 1:53 pm

This problem is caused solely by the use of an unwound string of very large diameter. The same problem exists with pedal steel players using an unwound 6th string (.020 or .022) on the E9 tuning. It's strictly physics, and the problem is mainly thermal expansion/contraction from the heat of your hands or changes in ambient temperature. This is compounded by the increased tension-pitch change sensitivity of the unwound string (you'll notice that a wound .026 or .028 takes much more tuning key motion to achieve the same pitch change), and there's really no way around it. I guarantee you would have much less trouble keeping a wound third string in tune, so it's a matter of which is more important to you, intonation or that particular sound.

Howard Parker · Post by **Howard Parker** » 25 Dec 2006 3:28 pm

OK, I understand.

I guess my answer is that my 3rd string does not pose any more "issues" than any other string during a gig.

Not that I've noticed anyways.

h

Bryan Bradfield · Post by **Bryan Bradfield** » 25 Dec 2006 5:23 pm

Mike Fried -

Thank you for the technical explanation.

I've seen that the heavy plain string changes with less string length change, and I suspect that is why I just tug on the string to sharp or flat it.

I also see that the mismatch with thermal expansion and contraction with the other strings is probably causing the problem during playing.

I agree that I have to choose between intonation & sound, and it as explained earlier, I'm going with the sound.

I may move down to a plain 0.024" to see if I can be comfortable with a compromise.

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 25 Dec 2006 5:35 pm

I tried a couple of GHS "E-major" sets for lap steel, and never liked the .024 plain 3rd string.
Something was seriously weird as soon as I moved up the neck,- intonation was off, the sustain was bad, and it produced some strange off-pitch overtones.
Since then I've always used wound strings for anything heavier than .022...

Steinar

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Edward Meisse · Post by **Edward Meisse** » 25 Dec 2006 8:37 pm

I don't know about anyone else, but I've learned alot from this thread. I definitely need to go to a 20 for my 3rd string. And I now know why as well. Thanks everybody.

Craig Stenseth · Post by **Craig Stenseth** » 30 Dec 2006 6:52 am

This web page has some good information about unwound 3rd strings seeming out of tune: http://images.onstagemag.com/files/46/0202Setuptxt.html

Bryan Bradfield · Post by **Bryan Bradfield** » 30 Dec 2006 9:50 am

Craig - thank you for the web page reference. In spite of the author's strong preference for wound 3rd's, his arguments furnished stronger support for my personal preference for heavy unwound 3rd's. (Admittedly, my application is very different from his.)

The only way I would alter my preference would be if I could find and try a wound 3rd with a very substantial core. However, I am not inclined to dig out my calipers and begin measuring core diameters. If I did find a suitable string, I'm afraid it would be a rare beast, and I would be searching high and low for a particular brand. I feel fortunate to have found a brand and composition that I really like for 5 out of the 6 strings. Now I just have to find one individual string, the unwound 3rd.

Ron · Post by **Ron** » 1 Jan 2007 8:45 am

Your idea of pressing on the other side of the nut is a common thing and. If the string is larger than the slot it will not slide through the slot smooth. Any wound string has more friction than unwound . If you don't have a gaged fret file to widen the slot used a wound string slightly larger than the unwound one and drag it through the slot and it will widen the slot. Al string slots should be some what wider . Not much.

Another thing some donut is always tune up to the pitch and never drop to the pitch as when you start playing it will go flat.

Another thing do not wrap the post over 3 times and overlap the string to lock so it will not slip .

Robro Ron

Patrick Ickes · Post by **Patrick Ickes** » 1 Jan 2007 9:45 am

Bryan,
I know many players who use the same method to fine tune their 3rd G string. If the .026 plain works for your sound, try either a compensated bridge and/or a compensated nut. Sometimes guitars come out slightly off the scale length, and the 3rd seems to be the one that takes the hit. It could also be a matter of adjusting the position of the spider assembly fore or aft to find the sweet spot. I think both Beard and Janet Davis carry compensated bridges.

Patrick

Bryan Bradfield · Post by **Bryan Bradfield** » 1 Jan 2007 10:38 am

Ron - I believe that Mike Fried has correctly diagnosed the problem in an earlier response as an expansion/contraction difference between the heavy plain 3rd and the remainder of the strings.

Patrick - I'm OK with the positioning (straightness) of the spider. You mentioned a compensated bridge. I believe you are referring to the offset bridge. These are an interesting item for correcting the misplacement of the cone and spider related to scale length, I believe. And I'm OK there, as well.

Ron · Post by **Ron** » 2 Jan 2007 4:17 am

You only need to worry about the computation of the bridge when you are fretting the strings like on a round neck as you are stretching the string and that makes it out of tune. Using the bar you don't stretch one string.

Robro Ron

Grant Johnson · Post by **Grant Johnson** » 2 Jan 2007 5:57 am

I rarely tune all the strings my Dobro to a tuner, as I like to "sweeten the thirds". I could see how an unwound third string would intonate differently and cause new problems...

Ron · Post by **Ron** » 2 Jan 2007 7:07 pm

I had a piano tuner tell me that the higher up the pitch you tune sharper as the ear hears flatter. Is our ear right or the tuner? Just a question?

Robro Ron