Tone....Is it also in the eyes?

Tommy White · Post by **Tommy White** » 24 Dec 2006 8:25 am

My last reply to this topic stands in it's original language and was edited only for my poor punctuating skills or lack of. Sorry bout' that.
Great topic Reece.

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 24 Dec 2006 9:03 am

I edited my original post to delete references to mental disturbance, which I felt was inappropriate in hindsight. This is a hard time of year for the mentally ill, and I thought that my loose usage of the term was disrespectful for those in suffering.

Al Terhune · Post by **Al Terhune** » 24 Dec 2006 10:00 am

I personally find just as much enlightenment and good information from the "nonmasters" such as Eric. Tommy's earned a name through whatever circumstances that got him where he is (and while we know Tommy is a great player, we also know there are players just as good who aren't "masters"), but his opinion -- nor Reece's, for that matter, are any more right or important than Eric's or anyone else that has played the steel for years on end and is passionate about it. And I'd bet my house that Reece would agree with this.

It does seem there's a bone to pick here, but where in life does that not exist? I don't think Eric's been volatile, rather just angry. We've all got opinions, eh? We can't disagree with the "masters?" Those of us who haven't shown a little anger or disagreement on the forum can cast the first stone. Not me.

Reece: This an interesting topic, and I think it's most obvious that people are affected by their visual surroundings. To be honest with you, though, when I'm playing either my black GFI or my "natural" finish ShoBud, I get lost in the playing and really don't differentiate between the two...at least I don't think I do. My eyes are on the frets, and to that end, I think the white board on my ShoBud is more friendly to me than the black one on the GFI--not to piss off Gene!

Al

Greg Simmons · Post by **Greg Simmons** » 24 Dec 2006 10:09 am

http://www.guitarplayer.com/story.asp?storyCode=4318

...esp. the last paragraph

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 24 Dec 2006 10:47 am

*[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 24 December 2006 at 10:50 AM.]

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 24 Dec 2006 10:56 am

I kind of have a simplistic personal feeling on the issue of color, and in general steel guitar esthetics. My feeling is personal history is a definite influence in how we see, hear, and make qualitative decisions.

It's generally known that a person's musical tastes and influences are primarily acquired in the years 12-25. By that time, folks generally know what they like and don't care for. Of course there are exceptions, but this is the most widely accepted belief.

When I was 18 years old... 1965 in Hollywood CA, surrounded by C&W all over the place... a steel guitar looked either like a Bigsby, a Fender, a Sho-Bud, or an Emmons. That was my visual definition of a steel guitar. I still have the catalogs and brochures the various builders sent me from that year. That's where my romantic attachment lived. Those are the instruments I fantasized myself in visualizations playing onstage to throngs of adoring country-folk.

So today, looking at 60 years of age this coming year, what do I play onstage? A black Emmons from 1964, a 1949 Bigsby, and a 1969 Sho-Bud. I also have a Fessenden guitar that's a replica of a Sho-Bud cabinet.

Call me a prolonged adolescent (lots of folks do), but I can't shake that traditional look that I fell in love with when I was a kid.

Black is the color of the guitar Buddy Emmons played on "Touch My Heart." OF COURSE black sounds best!!

I recall about 10 or more years ago at ISGC, my old pal Perlowin and I were walking down the hallway at the hotel and he pulled me over to a particular builder's room, a builder generally recognized as one of the pioneers of steel guitar design and one of the industry's best mechanics and designers. This famous builder however now makes a very untraditional looking steel. "Look at this," Mike said. "What do you think?"

I told him "I know they work good, but I think it's the ugliest steel I've ever seen in my life."

Mike said "I think it's the most beautiful steel I've ever seen in my life."

There ya go. Of course, he's right, and likewise, I'm right. We just come to our conclusions from different places.

Do any of y'all share these admittedly irrational feelings from adolescence regarding their personal choices of tone, color, design, etc.?

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 24 December 2006 at 11:08 AM.]

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 24 Dec 2006 11:01 am

Well I apologize for getting angry about my sensitivity for blindness having "gifts. No excuses.

Just my experiences gigging with a couple of them for extended period. They weren't "gifted" other than being able to cope with the world, and music helped. Just like it does with the sighted. If you want the truth, I was a little disappointed that they weren't "exceptional" musically or otherwise. Just guys that played music, for money and their spirit, just like me.

If I got "angry" every day about a new thing, I'd be worried about it.

People that worry a lot about the mental health of other people usually don't have much of it themselves.

Far as disagreeing with my "betters", It's kind of distressing to see the attacks on those that disagree with them. Especially people threatening to throw a hissy fit and "go away" when there's no abuse other than disagreement, and it wasn't even with them. Sheesh...

Reece's replies certainly show his own take on people that disagree with him well enough. Often with genuine concern that he might have been misunderstood, and a willingness to remove the misunderstanding. He's a big boy.

Actually my first post was a curt way of saying that IMHO a person can get carried away with "visuals" to the point of neurosis. I myself like my white fretboards, and they need to be clean. I junked the accidentally tempered flat ones that came on my Marrs, and got some originals from Bill, I think it was in Florida and painted them white. I actually put glitter in the clear coat to kind of help me focus on the etherical part of the craft. 3d's are harder to keep clean, but I think the visuals are worth the trouble. The Millenniums' 3ds, I'm sure are a plus for them.

Colors? Like cars and bikes, I've always considered green to be "bad luck" and "blue" to be good luck because of Jimmy Day. Bud C used an old green Sho~Bud, and it didn't bring him any better luck in his students than having me show up thirty years ago..

I've had real good luck with my Blue G&L in the last year, and my old blue hand built 63FLH is still shiny. They both have great "tone" too.

Interesting, but I don't see anything but a passing relation to plugging in your guitar on a gig and playing with the "tone" you want, at best.

If that wads anybodys panties in a knot, I hope the general ups and downs of Life aren't as hard on you. Whether you're important or not.

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 24 December 2006 at 11:31 PM.]

Tommy White · Post by **Tommy White** » 24 Dec 2006 11:50 am

Eric,
I will take the leap in assuming by throwing a hissy or threatening, you're referring to me. I do apologize to anyone for taking my replies as such. That is surely not my intent. Yet another reason for my reluctance to post. I was merely thinking out loud in making my typed observation. I believe we would agree, a written thought does not always translate well. No biggie.
I do agree with your idea of one getting carried away with a guitars appearance. It didn't take me long to understand the cliche, "beauty is only skin deep" also applies to steel guitars.
Happy holidays and Merry Christmas to everyone!
Again, edited for spelling and punctuation.[This message was edited by Tommy White on 24 December 2006 at 11:57 AM.]

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 24 Dec 2006 12:17 pm

Herb, I remember the incident you referred to. Let's look at it a little closer.

When we were kids together, you got into country and I got into rock. So you were playing the steel guitar for 15 years before I even knew what one was. (An aside here: I think it's cool that 2 high school friends who had completely lost touch with each other were reunited years later because of the steel guitar.)

But because I become involved with the steel so much later, I do not really appreciate those earlier instruments that inspired you back then. (Likewise I'm not enamored with the country music of that period either.) I looked at the instrument in question without any preconceived emotional attachment to any kind of idea of what a steel should look like.

Had I started playing steel when you did I might well have the same feelings about the aesthetic tradition of the instrument that you do. But I don't. Look at the pics of my purple millennium. It's about as untraditional as you can get.

So, when are you gonna come back to L.A, and visit Laurie and me? There's a restaurant I want to take you to that serves dished like chicken with sour cherries and lamb with pomegranite and walnut sauce.

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Warning: I have a telecaster and I'm not afraid to use it.
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My web site

Joe Miraglia · Post by **Joe Miraglia** » 24 Dec 2006 12:23 pm

Have someone put a nick or dig on your lacquer birdseye maple steel (Hate to say what I'd do to them), just imagine how that would effect your tone for the rest of the night.

Merry Christmas to all! Joe. Edited to add smile face

[This message was edited by Joe Miraglia on 24 December 2006 at 12:32 PM.]

C. Christofferson · Post by **C. Christofferson** » 24 Dec 2006 12:33 pm

E, your contributions, like everyone else's, nevertheless, has it's positive aspects. (edited for archive purposes) c.[This message was edited by C. Christofferson on 26 December 2006 at 11:56 PM.]

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 24 Dec 2006 12:57 pm

Well for my part Mr C, you're welcome. Reading isn't always fun if you don't know when to quit.

Neither is writing, especially if you don't know what you want to say or you know you're writing it to be read by somebody that isn't very good at it.

I think I only apologized once, completely, and for one simple thing. Maybe someone has been counting over the years, but I don't remember more than one other.

My list of "what I liked"? White Clean 3d Fretboards and the color Blue.

Have a nice Xmas. Good luck with the book..

Tommy.

I hesitate to get into posts where there isn't something that "jumps out", and there's a potential for misunderstandings. "Tone" posts are at the top of the list besides the "New Country Sucks" ones.

I enjoy playing the gigs I have been able to keep coming in more than getting whupped on a musicless computer.

We can use all the insight we can get from the guys and gals that are willing to share their knowledge. We all have things that chap our butts I suppose.

Time to hook up to the sleigh and head out.

Now where are those elves...

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 24 December 2006 at 01:24 PM.]

Mark Durante · Post by **Mark Durante** » 24 Dec 2006 2:00 pm

Certainly I think players feel more interested in playing a guitar when they are attracted to it's looks.
Mike P. I'm surprised you have revealed your secret identity as the Green Lantern!

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 24 Dec 2006 2:14 pm

I changed. I'm the purple lantern now.

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Warning: I have a telecaster and I'm not afraid to use it.
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My web site

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 24 Dec 2006 5:50 pm

The ‘Sound’ is (has to be) all in your head! If you can't hear it, you can't play it! And if you can't play it no one else can know what you hear! If anyone plays exactly what you hear, that's when it all comes together! What did I just say¿

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“Big John”
a.k.a. {Keoni Nui}
Current Equipment

Rick Nicklas · Post by **Rick Nicklas** » 24 Dec 2006 8:52 pm

Do you guys remember the thread where Buddy Emmons and Jeff Newman were giving a joint seminar and Jeff leaned over and ask Buddy "Why is my tone much better than your's"? Buddy's reply was "Because you have a tin ear"!!! ... Buddy later admitted on this forum that Jeff's tone did indeed sound better than his on this day.

I am wondering if it crossed Buddy or Jeff's mind that it may be the inherent tone in their guitars; style of pickup; Amplifier; Pedal; EQ and color settings or color of guitar. (It could not have been the color of guitar because Jeff's Kline U-12 was a pinkish orange color). These guys were pro's noticing tone (not technique or style). I would have liked to have been there and listened to the differences myself just to see if my ears had the same reaction as theirs.

Ronnie Green · Post by **Ronnie Green** » 24 Dec 2006 9:08 pm

Tone may be in the eye's of the beholder. There is not one of us that has a gal that looks {or for that matter sounds} the same. Every player has his or hers personal style. This topic could go on longer than the war in Iraq.

Mitch Ellis · Post by **Mitch Ellis** » 24 Dec 2006 9:22 pm

The post that Mark Durante made makes sense to me. I've seen players sell a guitar simply because they got tired of the color. I've seen only two or three steels that I thought were flat out ugly, but other than those, I like one color about as much as another. To a certain degree, Mark's post applies to me. If I see a steel that I think is extra pretty, I'm a little more excited about playing it. To me, color isn't everything, but it's something. In 04, the local music store recieved a new Zum. I looked at it, played it, then looked at it again. Then I ask myself "Mitch...are you willing to look at this steel for the rest of your life?" I played it again, paid the man, and brought it home.
Mitch

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 25 Dec 2006 12:51 am

Justin Trevino comes to mind easily,
and Johnathan Candler.

Tracy Sheehan · Post by **Tracy Sheehan** » 25 Dec 2006 1:11 am

Reece.It has been many a moon but i still remember you being asked in a interview if you took in to consideration what your msa's looked like from the players side and you replied,you bet.Wonder if you still recall this interview?This was when you still had the factory in east Dallas.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 25 Dec 2006 2:14 am

"challenge your tautologically acquired belief systems."

I like to think of it as creating 'Environmental Psycologists, with a minor in music.

ROTFLOL. Ed you crack me up.

Someone once said :
"The moment you stop learning, you are dead, or might as well be."

I lean toward instruments that look like
a beautiful piece of furnature.
Nice grain and warm hues.

If it makes me inspired to play it better,
then the color works.

C. Christofferson · Post by **C. Christofferson** » 25 Dec 2006 7:23 pm

Just barely 'on' topic but i havent noticed in the recent tone threads. The largest percentage of gigs ive played were as a drummer. In some rooms the snare sounded just sweet, while in another room it sounded unfixably raunchy - all the worst frequencies. Nice to know that it wasn't all just the instrument itself.

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 25 Dec 2006 8:02 pm

When playing the “midi system” attached to my steel guitar, none of the instruments sound exactly the way I think they should, even though I know without a doubt the sound I select is an exact sample of each individual instrument!

Here's why I believe this is happening...….while playing, my eyes are looking at the instrument which introduces a sub-conscious suggestion of the sound that normally comes from my steel guitar, however at the same time my ears are hearing the sound of a completely different instrument I previously selected. The end result is…...my mind is receiving opposing images at the same time which results in a disarray of mental perception…...which at times is referred to as subliminal static.

When listening to myself playing “midi” on a recording, it removes my eyes from the process, and allows my ears to fully accept the sound of the instrument selected as sounding exactly as imagined and intended.

For me this is yet another example of the the power of the eyes relative to subliminal perception.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 25 Dec 2006 9:17 pm

When presented with a rhythmic visual display, I hear it. There's a sensory cross-talk that happens in my brain somehow. Also, I have no doubt that visuals affect my perception of tone. I deliberately play black steel guitars because they have a minimal effect on my hearing.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 26 Dec 2006 3:10 am

Color can be an emotional thing. If you really like the Instrument and how it looks, you may feel very good with it. If you are not comfortable with it's "IMAGE" you may be distracted.

Me, I am very conservtive with colors, Black, Wood Grains et.., I am not someone who would feel comfortable sitting behind or holding a very bright color, it's not me. It may make me feel reluctant.

I was driving Corvettes for years, although I did own a Red one, I didn't enjoy driving it as much as the others. Red and bright colors are statements, cars ,Instruments etc.. Some folks are really into it and feel great about it, others are not.

So I feel it is possible that a player may tense a bit ( play less) because they don't feel comfortable with an OFF axis color.

I gotta go, my shrink is calling, he finally got rid of that Neon Orange couch and got a Black one

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 26 December 2006 at 03:13 AM.]