Bland in a Box

Dave Van Allen · Post by **Dave Van Allen** » 4 Dec 2006 12:36 pm

Are y'all thinking "great song! wow, that makes me feel happy/sad!" or are you thinking "that was an interesting change on that passing chord, i wonder what copedant he's using?"

I'm generally thinking -"Gee, I wish I'd thought of that!"

In All seriousness:

to limit one's listening to even narrower parameters than seems common here (1. I won't listen to anything that ain't Country 2. I won't listen to any Country that don't have steel guitar 3. I won't listen to any Country steel guitar CD that's got BIAB tracks on it) is gonna leave you with very little NEW to listen to and LEARN FROM...

Blame not the tool, blame the workman...
I much prefer playing with humans in real time over playing with machines. But in order to promote my own musical ideas I have had to resort to creating my own tracks with synthesis, and have turned to BIAB for convenience of structuring basic tracks. I always enhance tracks with "live" instruments, as well as edit the machine tracks to sound as human a possible , for instance introducing random timing fluctuations, ahead or behind the rigid beat. This is time consuming but it's inexpensive except for the time spent...

It is rare to find accomplished musicians who can work as hard as I do on arcane projects for as little money

Economics and Geographical Location are also considerations.

c c johnson · Post by **c c johnson** » 4 Dec 2006 1:34 pm

there are establishment that will not pay a 4 or 5 piece band $200-250 for a 2-3 hr gig. However they will pay one guy $100- 150 for 2 hrs. Just me and my sound system and BIAB have been playing all the gigs we want to. The managers and dancers are happy; I don't have to bail a guitar player out of jail, I don't have to buy the fiddle player a set of strgs, and the bass player doesn't show as he has been beat up by a jealous husband. BIAB is great CC

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 4 Dec 2006 1:45 pm

Am I the only one that can't use Band In The Box?

Not from the perspective of disliking canned music, but because I'm so thick that I can't get it to work on my computer.

I have to make all my backing tracks the hard way, with real instruments, played badly by myself, which discourages me from doing it very often.

Is there any step-by-step, (ABC 123 etc) BIAB instructions for computer illiterates ?

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 4 Dec 2006 2:17 pm

There are instructional DVD's that come with BIAB.

Frank Parish · Post by **Frank Parish** » 4 Dec 2006 2:39 pm

Yes there are instructional CD's with BIAB and if you can stand to listen to it then they can be useful. The very most plastic CD's that I've ever heard (besides BIAB) are the ones that come with one person playing every instrument on there and then they use a drum machine to top it off. Sometimes I hear these drum riffs just take off somewhere in the middle not making any sense at all and that drives me crazy. These are the ones where some guy writes all the songs and then records every instrument himself because he doesn't want to hire a bass player or a drummer and it just never sounds like a musical recording to me. I bought the CD from Steve Vai several years ago that he recorded all the tracks to and it just stunk and I never listened to it twice. I've completely given up on buying any CD's from anything but well known artists that know what they're doing and use all real instruments and real players. I threw a bunch in the trash recently because they were just a waste of money and space in my CD cabinet.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 4 Dec 2006 2:42 pm

Don't get me wrong. I use BIAB all the time, at home and at steel jams. As an educational tool it is great. But a single rhythm guitarist can provide a much more listenable accompaniment on a recording.

And anyone who thinks that drum patterns are best played by a machine is just asking for trouble, IMHO. With an attitude like that, we could be replaced just as easily in a decade or two. Canned steel licks are already finding their way onto recordings. It won't be long before people think that computer-generated steel parts "sound great". Watch out!!

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog 
<div style="display:none">

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 4 Dec 2006 3:11 pm

For me it's not either/or it's BOTH
Mixing live instruments with BiaB creates a much more realistic overall mix.
Just adding acoustic or electric rhythm/lead guitar with the bass/drums/keys from BiaB makes a BIG DIFFERENCE.

Also, as others have pointed out, the quality of your sound card or module is critical in determining the quality of the finished product.

It is an AMAZING product.

This was done with BiaB PLUS a live steel, dobro, rhythm, and lead guitar
'When You Say Nothing at All' from my CD 'Pedal steel Guitar'

There are other examples from that CD on my website (click below) if anyone is interested.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps
[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 04 December 2006 at 03:12 PM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 4 Dec 2006 4:09 pm

Once you've added the real guitar, why not just remove the canned tracks, Larry? For the life of me, I don't see how a computer can make "country music", or how having BIAB tracks improves a recording.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 4 Dec 2006 4:23 pm

Because it needed bass and drums and keys

Do you really find the sound of it objectionable? I don't.

If I were a bass player, drummer, and keyboard player I may have opted to replace those tracks, but I think the overall sound is totally acceptable. In fact, that CD has sold more than the one with GREAT sidemen and all live parts. Go figger.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

David Kitchen · Post by **David Kitchen** » 4 Dec 2006 5:20 pm

I WOULD JUST LIKE SOMEONE HELP ME GET STARTED WITH BIAB. THANK YOU

Marty Smith · Post by **Marty Smith** » 4 Dec 2006 5:30 pm

Real instuments = Real Music!!!

c c johnson · Post by **c c johnson** » 4 Dec 2006 5:42 pm

David, do a search and contact Jim Baron at 4b music. He is the guru and much much better than the tutorials w/BIAB. He tutored me and if he can teach a blockhead like me he can do wonders with anyone else. CC

Paul Arntson · Post by **Paul Arntson** » 4 Dec 2006 7:03 pm

.[This message was edited by Paul Arntson on 10 December 2006 at 11:22 AM.]

Bob Martin · Post by **Bob Martin** » 4 Dec 2006 7:37 pm

Well I promised myself never and I do mean never try to convince anyone that BIAB was a very usable musical tool in the right hands. So with that being said please let me very humbly say this.

The usefulness and the musicality and realism and just general perceivable realness lies in the hands of the person making the tracks not the one listening to them. So if they sound bad to you the composer either didn't do a good job or your listening to the actual midi file on a poor midi synth but if it's on a CD or any recorded medium it's their fault and not yours or BIAB's

If anyone of you have heard BIAB sound tracks along with steel projects or any instrument and hated the backing tracks or for that matter even recognized that the tracks were canned and came from BIAB well that's just not BIAB's fault. Again it's the composers fault as long as you're listening to it on a recorded medium of any kind and not the actual midi file on your midi synth.

The fault lies with the person that didn't make a believer out of you. He/she either lacked the skills to properly manipulate BIAB after they input the chords or didn't take the time to make them sound real and of course the software/hardware sample playback machine that they used was either again manipulated wrong or it was of a low quality!

It's all in the hands of the composer whether or not you like the song and especially if you recognize that it was a synth rather than a real live instrument.

99% of every hit you have ever listened to on either country radio or pop or rock or jazz uses some sort of synthesized sound some where in that song. Some more than others but believe me it's in there. Every commercial you hear on the TV or Radio is likely 100% samples manipulated by some software guru that can make it sound real and instead of using a sample that took up maybe less than one little bitty mb it might have taken up 100 to 800 gb's yep that's right some samples can be very large and usually the larger the samples are the more realistic they sound.

So the next time you hear that soundtrack on your favorite movie or TV show just remember it's probably mostly samples being manipulated by a composer in a studio that may only be able to play a piano in real life.

In ending this very long post I agree with you guys I hear a lot of terrible sounding BIAB files and I usually don't listen to them all the way thru when they sound that cheesy. When I can't tell the difference between a harmonica and an accordion it's time to hit the stop key and then the delete key

Bob

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 4 Dec 2006 8:03 pm

Do you really find the sound of it objectionable? I don't.

Really, Larry? Compare the backup on your Nothing At All with In My Room. To me the difference is night and day, especially in the drums. I'd rather not hear a drum part at all than hear that robot sound.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog 
<div style="display:none">[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 04 December 2006 at 08:04 PM.][This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 04 December 2006 at 08:05 PM.]

George Rout · Post by **George Rout** » 4 Dec 2006 8:23 pm

Are all the critics referring ONLY to BIAB or are you including the tracks sold by Scotty, the late Jeff Newman, Billy Phelps and others that have tracks out there.

And to Frank Parish, I would say "that's fine, if you don't like what you hear whatever it is, turf it out, but it doesn't mean that everybody else should turf it out just because YOU don't like it"!!!!!

Sound, music, colours, wine and religion are a personal taste. Nobody but nobody can tell me what I should be listening to in a particularly coloured room, while drinking wine that tastes lie battery acid while praying in any direction!!! So put that in your BIAB and get an Ab minor with an augmented 5th out of it!!!!!!!!! Geo

Dom Franco · Post by **Dom Franco** » 4 Dec 2006 10:31 pm

Yep I hear it! it's the cymbals mostly, you can actually hear the tip of the drum stick hitting the brass. The slight differences in accents and volume levels combined with the variation in where the stick strikes the cymbal all work together to make it sound REAL!

I have heard many canned drum tracks on commercial recordings and I don't like it and usually won't listen to the whole song.

Let's see how the new band in a Box version with "real drums" sounds...

BTW I make my own tracks with real instruments as much as possible, using a drum machine only as a click track. Then most of the time I have a real drummer play over these fake parts. Sometimes using the canned kick and snare can be fixed with a real Hi Hat and ride cymbal etc.

This has been a lively conversation, thanks for all of your oppinions.

Dom Franco

[This message was edited by Dom Franco on 04 December 2006 at 10:34 PM.]

Rick Campbell · Post by **Rick Campbell** » 4 Dec 2006 11:26 pm

Here's my "opinion":

1.The one man CD's ???????? I just did one this way. I played 11 instruments (and BIAB), sang all the vocals, did the engineering, and wrote some of the material. Could I have went in the studio with some super-pickers and produced a better quality product....obviously I could have. But, that would not have accomplished what I wanted to by doing it all myself. So, don't knock the ones of us that do that just because you can't do it. And if you can do it, then do it and then we can discuss it on a common basis.

2. BIAB is like an instrument and is only as good as the person operating it.

3. Frank Parish related to one of the advantages of living in the USA. We are free to listen, or not listen, to what we wish. I've got stuff using BIAB that I enjoy much more that some of the full blown sessions coming out of Nashville. My neighbor across the street may not agree...so what? Also, BIAB never gets tired or hungry, never needs to go outside and smoke, never bitches about anything like playing the song in F when they learned it in Bb.

4. To get close to a realistic sound you need to have quality equipment to use with BIAB. (good sound card, GM sound module, etc..) Plug your steel into a computer and play it through the PC speakers. I bet it might sound a little cheezy too.

5. The great fiddler, Scotty Stoneman, said "if you're playing to please other musicians you'll starve to death". The general public wants to be entertained not impressed with ones ability to play a break note for note like Buddy Emmons, etc... If BIAB sounds good to them, then it is good. They don't know, or care, about the technical stuff.

6. I basically, used BIAB for drums and piano rhythms. I did a few bluegrass numbers and I even used BIAB for a rhythm track while I was recording to keep the timing under control, and then simply left it out when I mixed. I found it easier than a click track.

7. For live shows, I do think you need a live band. How is this different than recording a CD using BIAB or drum machine? Because a show is not only audio, it's also visual. People go to a concert "SEE" the performer. They say I'm going to "see" Ray Price, not I'm going to "hear" Ray Price. If hearing was all they're interested in, they could just stay home and listen to CD's or the radio.

Also, it's insulting to a band for a performer to walk on stage and tell the band that can just rest because they are using a sound track. Karoke and bands don't mix. Thats another whole story in itself.

8. Used properly, BIAB is a very useful tool to the home recording artist as well as a very efficent practice tool.

9. BTW: I just got version 2007 and it has some new drums that were made from recordings of actual dummers playing. I havn't installed it yet but I will soon. If anyone want to know about the new drums feel free to email me.

10. I've had people ask about hiring the drummer I used on my last CD for a session. When I tell them it was BIAB they can hardly believe it. Then they ask: "can you show me how to do that". Enough said!

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Emmons Lashley Legrande D-10 8/4, Peavey Nashville 400, Peavey Nashville 112, Peavey Bandit, Baggs Fiddle Bridge, Peavey Profex II, Several Fiddles, Fender Tele and Strat, Martin Guitars, Eastman 815 Mandolin, Johnson Dobro, Rich and Taylor Banjo, Yamaha Keyboard, Upright Bass, Yamaha Bass, Korg Tuners.

racmusic.tripod.com

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 5 Dec 2006 2:48 am

99% of every hit you have ever listened to on either country radio or pop or rock or jazz uses some sort of synthesized sound some where in that song.

A) That must be why I can't listen to the radio anymore without getting brain-hives;
B) "Every" is a big word and "ever" is a long time;
C) I thought Beethoven's 6th symphony was a "hit"?

Rick Campbell · Post by **Rick Campbell** » 5 Dec 2006 4:04 am

Beethoven was deaf so he didn't care what it sounded like anyway. This link tells why he was deaf..interesting reading.

http://www.drmirkin.com/morehealth/8690.html

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Emmons Lashley Legrande D-10 8/4, Peavey Nashville 400, Peavey Nashville 112, Peavey Bandit, Baggs Fiddle Bridge, Peavey Profex II, Several Fiddles, Fender Tele and Strat, Martin Guitars, Eastman 815 Mandolin, Johnson Dobro, Rich and Taylor Banjo, Yamaha Keyboard, Upright Bass, Yamaha Bass, Korg Tuners.

racmusic.tripod.com

Alvin Blaine · Post by **Alvin Blaine** » 5 Dec 2006 4:41 am

Concerning the "quality" of synthesized instruments...many of you critics would be amazed at how many of your favorite "high quality" commercial CDs used synthesized instrumentation in their production.

I can honestly say that, since most of my favorite "high quality" commercial Cd's are bluegrass & acoustic music, there just about no chance of synthesized instruments (especially drums) on any of it.

John Macy · Post by **John Macy** » 5 Dec 2006 6:21 am

It's just a tool. Like a nail gun--one guy will find a way to build a fine piece of furniture with it, and another guy will end up nailing his foot to the floor. Not the tool's fault

...

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 5 Dec 2006 7:08 am

I agree that BIAB is a useful tool in the right hands. It can be subtley used or abused, or outright mangled. It's fantastic for demos, pre-production work, and for educational purposes. But I also think it's overused in full-blown commercial recording. I think over-automation is one of the main reasons I listen to relatively little contemporary music, but am content to put on my old LPs.

An analogy that speaks to me on this is the distinction between a hand-crafted guitar and one carved out on a CNC machine. You can get a good or poor guitar either way - it depends on the skill of the maker or the way the automated process is done - selection of wood, quality of the CNC tools, skill of operators, human intervention after the basic operations, and so on. I have good examples of both types of guitars.

But, to me, I generally prefer a handmade guitar that has the individual mark of the maker on it. It's no accident that older production-technique guitars, as well as modern renditions made in custom shops by fine luthiers, generally command more respect as well as significantly higher value. In that world, one expects to be told if a guitar is handmade or made via automated processes, and there is normally a consequent lessening of value if automated procedures are used. I feel the same way about music. It's the human touch, as b0b says.

With all that said, I'll agree that I'd rather listen to a really well produced BIAB backup than a bad live band backup. But a bad live backup band has no place on a professional recording. I infinitely prefer a live feel in recordings. To me, no matter how one slices it, we've really lost something in the rush to mo' bigger, and mo' mo'.

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 5 Dec 2006 7:35 am

I use Mac's Garageband drums for demos and they're insanely real. But they don't do a shuffle.

Rick Campbell · Post by **Rick Campbell** » 5 Dec 2006 8:01 am

Dave Medgett: Now what would someone from PA know about building acoustic guitars?

Everyone Else: If you know anything about acoustic guitars you know that this is a compliment, not a put down.

I agree with Dave.

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Emmons Lashley Legrande D-10 8/4, Peavey Nashville 400, Peavey Nashville 112, Peavey Bandit, Baggs Fiddle Bridge, Peavey Profex II, Several Fiddles, Fender Tele and Strat, Martin Guitars, Eastman 815 Mandolin, Johnson Dobro, Rich and Taylor Banjo, Yamaha Keyboard, Upright Bass, Yamaha Bass, Korg Tuners.

racmusic.tripod.com