Bland in a Box

Dom Franco · Post by **Dom Franco** » 3 Dec 2006 11:06 pm

I want to share one of my pet peeves.
We steel players are blessed with one of the most amazing sounding instruments in the world.

Why then do some of us play to cheezy background Trax like Band in a Box?

To me the high hat's sound like a tic tac box, with fake triggered drum sounds bleech!

synth strings and keyboard sounds have vastly improved, but still sound canned to my ears. I would rather hear a lone acoustic guitar recorded on a cheap cassette boom box as opposed to some of these Midi-Monsterpieces.

Ok lets talk..

Dom Franco

Andy Sandoval · Post by **Andy Sandoval** » 3 Dec 2006 11:46 pm

If it sounds cheesy on your computer you might want to upgrade your sound card. I use the Coyote ForteDXi and BIAB sounds a lot better than without it. Sure there's some synthesized sounds that just don't sound like the real thing but you can always mute the unwanted sounds and just use the ones you like. BIAB now offers real drum sounds to replace the midi drums sounds, a vast improvement. I usually practice using BIAB for backup and for me it works great.

Jan Oelbrandt · Post by **Jan Oelbrandt** » 4 Dec 2006 2:09 am

I think BiaB is a great practice tool.
Of course, it never sounds like a real band. That's not its goal. It is fantastic to practice a certain chord progression you want to practice too (let's say, IV - #IVdim - V - I) very quickly. Just type in the chords, select how many loops you want, and go. Practice in an other key? Just hit transpose and go again.
Setup for this practice is about 1/2 minute, how long would it take you to record this with an acoustic as backing track? At least 15 minutes...

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 4 Dec 2006 3:05 am

I agree with everybody! I must be a liberal! Umm, yes, upgrade your soundcard, yes it's a great practice tool for those of us who can't afford court musicians, and yes LEAVE IT OFF THE CD's, PLEASE. I have a couple of steel instrumental CD's from notable/famous players that are unlistenable (to me) because of the "horn sections" and "Hammond B3" backup. Even good* synthesized "horns" from good*, improved* software sound so awful - why bother? Just leave them OFF. Four-piece bands are FINE, play your STEEL GUITAR, that's what I bought your CD FOR, if I wanted to listen to horned plasticine B-I-A-B drool I'd do it ALONE, O.K.?

Besides ruining a potentially listenable track and wasting my money and time, it makes me think less of a musician's taste if they really think they can improve a CD with imitation plasticine horn-drool. I won't be buying any more of their CD's, that's for sure - must be the liberal in me?

*(yeah right)

Mike Wheeler · Post by **Mike Wheeler** » 4 Dec 2006 4:37 am

Well, guys, remember that live musicians cost money. A reasonable studio environment in which to record a band isn't free of cost. Then there's all the mics, stands, console, etc. and on top of that, a limited market to sell to!! It could take years to just break even...if they ever do!!

Bottom line...very few can afford to record like you are requiring. So, if no one used the BIAB (or similar) methods, we'd have a heck of a lot less steel music to enjoy.

I doubt there's a player anywhere that wouldn't love to have a real band/studio session to use on his CD, but because of financial restrictions, can't make it happen.

If these CDs are so offensive to you, don't buy them and quit criticizing. They're doing the best they can and I very much appreciate the results of their labors.

Ernie Pollock · Post by **Ernie Pollock** » 4 Dec 2006 4:56 am

I think Mike has just said it all!!

Whats wrong with having some fun & enjoyment with your steel guitar??

Ernie

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John Daugherty · Post by **John Daugherty** » 4 Dec 2006 6:10 am

Biab sounds GREAT. I use the Roland VSC drivers. Nothing will sound good if it is played through small computer speakers.
If you are not hearing a good sound, don't blame Band-In-A-box.

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www.home.earthlink.net/~johnd37

Robert Leaman · Post by **Robert Leaman** » 4 Dec 2006 6:24 am

BIAB DOES NOT produce any sound(s). BIAB produces commands that cause sound(s) to be produced by whatever sound device your computer can use. If your computer sounds lousy, buy a good sound device, MIDI, sound card, speakers, etc. It seems that some spend considerable amounts on amplifiers, distortion devices, guitars, speakers, etc. However, if good sound from a computer is desireable, you'll get exactly what you pay for.[This message was edited by Robert Leaman on 07 December 2006 at 05:18 PM.]

Terry Edwards · Post by **Terry Edwards** » 4 Dec 2006 7:03 am

Upgrade your sound card/equipment.

BIAB is just software and is fine.

Better yet, open or transfer this thread to the new "recording" section and you will get a lot of help in producing high quality demos from BIAB.

Terry[This message was edited by Terry Edwards on 04 December 2006 at 07:05 AM.]

Darvin Willhoite · Post by **Darvin Willhoite** » 4 Dec 2006 7:07 am

BIAB is the best musical accessory I ever bought. I think I've learned more since I bought it than I did all the years before. I like to dig out old songs that I have heard but never played and just see what I can do with them.

I keep supporting PG music by buying every update too. By the way, BIAB 2007 was just released.

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Darvin Willhoite
Riva Ridge Recording

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 4 Dec 2006 8:04 am

If you want to play with some good synthetic percussion buy Musician's Bundle with Beatcraft and Mixcraft. For $70 you get a couple of neat toys that do actual work...

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 4 Dec 2006 8:04 am

If a CD is recorded using BIAB, it should be noted on the back cover so the customer can be given the choice whether or not to purchase it. I think most of the criticism invloving BIAB on a CD is that the customer did not realize upon purchase that the backing instrumentation would be fake.

BIAB does sound like a great practicing tool, and seems useful for steel gatherings and such. I'm not sure it's 100% acceptable for use on a CD that has a price tag comparable with other CD's featuring real instrumentation. I completely understand that it's expensive to hire musicians, but if the budget is not there, then a reduced CD price may be in line. Part of a CD price reflects the need for reimbursment of studio costs, and using BIAB certainly cuts down on that cost.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 4 Dec 2006 8:23 am

Chris said it well. I love my BIAB as a practice tool, my objection is to spending $16 on a CD that sounds bad because of overbearing, computerized bleeps and blats that pass as "horn" parts and "string" sections - sure, some are better than others. Susan Alcorn made an unaccompanied steel CD called "Uma" that sounds fine to me, I listen to unaccompanied violin sonatas and caprices and unaccompanied classical guitar all the time; I guess the issue is whether a steel CD is improved and rendered more saleable by the addition of synthetic parts, maybe some are? Bobby Black even made a joke about the parts on his CD, listing the "K.C. Green Horns", the "Strawberry String Quartet" and "Juan Smore" on marimba and vibes - I would have preferred to hear the steel guitar, less festooned with additional parts.

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 4 Dec 2006 8:27 am

I would be lost without BIAB. As stated the sound all depends on the quality of your sound card (tone generator). A few years ago I invested in a pretty high end Edirol tone generator that supports General Midi II. The later issues of BIAB also supports GM II and greatly adds to the choice of instruments. It has over 1,000 different instruments at your fingertips. The new 2007 edition, supposedly, has improved drum tracks on it. I have it on its way!

Mike Wheeler · Post by **Mike Wheeler** » 4 Dec 2006 8:31 am

Concerning the "quality" of synthesized instruments...many of you critics would be amazed at how many of your favorite "high quality" commercial CDs used synthesized instrumentation (especially drums) in their production.

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 4 Dec 2006 8:45 am

Good point, Mike.

John Lacey · Post by **John Lacey** » 4 Dec 2006 9:15 am

I think that it's a matter of proportion. I used BIAB on my CD but kept it mainly to the drums, bass, and some rhythm piano sounds while putting live acoustic guitar on it. The more human, the better to augment the machine portion of the recording. Mike Wheeler's got it nailed. I also mention using BIAB on the cover of the CD.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 4 Dec 2006 9:32 am

I agree with you, Dom, but not for the reasons you think. Today you can get great, realistic sounding MIDI instruments and drive them from BIAB. That doesn't solve the underlying problem, though.

Real music is performed by real people. As you get further and further from human performance, your recording contains less real musical content. Listening to a recording is already less satisfying than a live performance. Why add more crap that only serves to degrade the listening experience?

My rant starts with BIAB tracks, but I also include compression and other unnatural mixing techniques in my criticism. These things are not musical. A drum machine doesn't make music. A computer pattern of guitar and bass sounds is not music.

Similarly, the idea that one track can affect the volume of another automatically is not a valid musical concept. That's what compression does. Listen to the snare drum on the radio. During a vocal note it's softer than if it happens between phrases. Sure, a real astute drummer could do that, but I guarantee you that's not what's happening because ALL of the instruments are being suppressed by that "out-front" vocal note. That's not music - that's sick.

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Dave Little · Post by **Dave Little** » 4 Dec 2006 10:01 am

I am right on the same page with you, Bobby Lee. I couldn't agree more. In my opinion, BIAB is a great learning and practice tool - that's all.
When I buy a steel player's CD, its usually (not always) for learning. It's a pretty cheap private lesson.
I don't mind the BIAB in that case. That being said however, when I get a good CD made with real people and good production, I tend to listen to it a lot more often in "simple listener" mode.
Dave Little

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 4 Dec 2006 10:01 am

IMO, BIAB is an indispensable tool for any musician. You can develop your soloing and compositional skills, and vary tempos and keys as needed, any time of the day or night.

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Jeff's Jazz

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 4 Dec 2006 10:07 am

I'm totally with Dave Mason on this. BIAB has usefulness as a practice tool, but in terms of a recording, I'd much rather hear an acoustic guitar as a backing track rather than plastic accompaniment.

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www.tyack.com

Mike Hoover · Post by **Mike Hoover** » 4 Dec 2006 10:14 am

Every one has mentioned sound cards, don't forget speakers make a big difference. I can't afford a back up band, but BIAB will work for practice.

Mike

Graeme Smart · Post by **Graeme Smart** » 4 Dec 2006 10:20 am

Bobby,
I believe what you're referring to is known as 'side-chain' compression. That's when a track is compressed based on another signal entering the compressor through its 'side-chain.' One use of this technique is sometimes called 'ducking,' as it 'ducks' one sound when another is heard. For instance, when a voice-over is heard on a commercial, the vocal can be side-chained into a compressor on the music track, so it 'ducks' a small amount, allowing the vocal more space.

This shouldn't be confused with compression in general, which (over-simplified) makes loud sounds softer and soft sounds louder. Many, if not most, mix and mastering engineers regard SUBTLE track compression as the 'glue' that creates really professional sounding mixes. I think it's safe to say that almost ALL commercial recordings have benefited from some compression on some, if not all tracks.

Having said that, there IS an issue in the industry currently with what's known as mastering compression, which is used to make recordings as loud as possible, ostensibly for radio play and to compete with everyone else's overly loud recordings. The downside to ANY overused compression is a loss of musical dynamics, which is what you might have been talking about in the first place.

Forgive me if this sounds like a lecture, or if you already knew all this, but SUBTLE compression is an important tool in making good recordings across genres.

Didn't mean to hijack the thread...
grae [This message was edited by Graeme Smart on 04 December 2006 at 10:43 AM.]

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 4 Dec 2006 10:40 am

If only they would leave that region between 0 dB and +6 dB empty...

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 4 Dec 2006 11:44 am

IMHO there are no good steel albums BIAB backed or otherwise. There I said it. I like harmonica occasionally but dont wanna hear a whole album of classics played on the harmonica...yawnica! Same with steel albums...boring! Come to think of it any instrument specific album bores me to tears. I like great songs and i like my instrumentation in that context. Anytime the music is more about "look at what I can do on my instrument" and less about making an emotional statement you've totally lost me.

That siad BIAB=great practice tool but I wouldnt dream of letting it represent my musical ideas for me. The backing on Lloyd Greens cool steel guitar man sounds like BIAB and it predfates BIAB for sure. The steel is great but I cannot listen to that album...the songs suck, the backing is cheesy ...and the steel is about one millionth as moving as it would be on say Sweetheart of the Rodeo where its in the context of great songs with great performers making an emotional impact.

Maybe thats just my preference tho, but I dont see how people can listent to these "steel" albums. Are y'all thinking "great song! wow, that makes me feel happy/sad!" or are you thinking "that was an interesting change on that passing chord, i wonder what copedant he's using?"