The Elements Of Tone!

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 21 Nov 2006 3:33 pm

Stephen G....I based my comment on your exact words..."I told y'all THIS was gonna turn into a tuning thread".

I didn't ask what you were referring too when you said "I think me and b0b are the only ones that has this MESS figured out". May I ask what mess you are referring too?

You are of course right that all things begin with the mind, which I plan to address in another thread so as to remain on topic.

I certainly have not inferred the instrument plays no part in the sound/tone, nor do I know of anyone who even remoted suggested it was all in the hands. This subject is also planned for another thread.

Colby Tipton · Post by **Colby Tipton** » 21 Nov 2006 3:35 pm

80% right hand, 18% left hand and 2% other. Other is feeling, guitar, amp and atitude.

Colby Tipton · Post by **Colby Tipton** » 21 Nov 2006 3:40 pm

80% right hand, 18%left hand and 2% other.
Other being feeling, guitar, amp and attitude. Soory about the double post. That is because of no patience.[This message was edited by Colby Tipton on 21 November 2006 at 03:43 PM.]

Colby Tipton · Post by **Colby Tipton** » 21 Nov 2006 3:55 pm

I take back my last 1/2% or at least part of it. I considered feeling as a percentage, on second thought feeling for the instrument has no percentage. I don't know if you can even call it feeling, it's something else to me. I think it may be part of my sole.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 21 Nov 2006 4:09 pm

"I certainly have not inferred the instrument plays no part in the sound/tone, nor do I know of anyone who even remoted suggested it was all in the hands"

I want to clarify that I agree - Reece did NOT say it's ALL in the hands, only that it starts with the hands. Some have taken that statement as eliminating the instrument from the equation - my point is that IMO tone *starts* with the instrument, and it's not actually "tone" that's hand-manipulated.

But it is certainly a matter of opinion.

Johnny Cox · Post by **Johnny Cox** » 21 Nov 2006 4:14 pm

75% is you got it or you aint! 25% is what you like to play on, through or with at a given time. Buddy Emmons is the very best at being Buddy Emmons. John Hughey at J.H. Reece at Reece. They got it and it is their's no matter what they choose to do it with. Jimmy Day had it, Curly had it, Jeff had it and Hal had it. You can analize and come up with therories for years to come. It seems to me that the ultimate question one must ask is: DO I HAVE IT?
I know, what is it? When figure that out I'll know that I have it.

------------------
Turn Up The Steel
Johnny Cox
MSA Steel Guitars

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 21 Nov 2006 4:22 pm

Stephen,

Damir, I don't understand---You imply that tone is in the individual's hands, then at the bottom of your post, there's a blurb that says:"When tone matters," and a link to Promat guitars. So which is it?

Promat is a diferent guitar,it is a push pull guitar and it has a distinctive tone ,I`m sure we can agree about that.And yes,your tone is in your hands and your heart,

Db

ps

and btw.,it is not a "blurb", it`s called "slogan"

------------------

"Promat"
~when tone matters~ www.promatsteelguitars.com

Twayn Williams · Post by **Twayn Williams** » 21 Nov 2006 4:49 pm

Jim S. wrote:

my point is that IMO tone *starts* with the instrument, and it's not actually "tone" that's hand-manipulated.

The "tone" of an instument, i.e. its timbre, is inherent in its construction, and in the case of electric instruments the construction of everything between and including the pickup and the speaker. When the player strikes a note, they are "selecting" a specific portion of the total timbral spectrum and bringing it to the fore. Thereby the "hands" DO manipulate the basic timbral platform.

There is the "tone" of the instument, i.e. its timbre, and there is the "tone" of the player, i.e. the players style and technique. The final result we hear is always a mixture of the two.

I know that for myself, the inherent timbre of an instrument dictates how I approach that instrument.

Tone is 80% equipment, 20% hands! No, tone is 80% hands, 20% equipment! 2 sides of the same coin.

Mike Wheeler · Post by **Mike Wheeler** » 21 Nov 2006 4:59 pm

How many times must this be said!!!!! We're confining our discussion to THE HANDS ONLY! Get off the equipment rant!!! What's so hard to understand? Discuss the hands and THEIR effect on tone, timbre, sound, or whatever you may call it.

If you don't think hands have a blanking thing to do with tone, then you have nothing to say, do you?? PLEASE!!! STAY ON TOPIC!!

I appologize, Maurice. I'm very, very interested in this thread's topic and these tangents are DRIVING ME CRAZY!!

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 21 Nov 2006 5:05 pm

Jim, I really didn't say anything about your credibility. We all establish our own credibility by what we say and do. (It isn't bestowed or revoked by others.)

What I did was question the validity of your arguments. Many times, you talk as if the straight guitar and the pedal steel were quite similar articles. I contend that they're very different animals. What is true for one is not always true for the other. Ergo, invalid arguments.

Richard Gonzales · Post by **Richard Gonzales** » 21 Nov 2006 5:09 pm

Right on Johnny Cox! I start from the heart, head and then let the hands take over using all of Reece's listed items. Those combinations with individual varibles give you that feeling/tone/sound your mind is seeking. With all the combinations and varibles available is why most of us sound different from each other.
The hands definitely give me the feeling and tone I am looking for , I change pickups, amp settings and special effects for that different sound.

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 21 Nov 2006 5:18 pm

"I certainly have not inferred..."

Reece, I think you meant to use the word "implied." Very common error, though...

And 5 pages of all kinds of guys spewing all over the map about "tone?" Not two people can even agree what "tone" is, much less where it comes from---and you don't INFER that it's a mess???? That's what I was IMPLYING!!!
I'm gonna go watch Tony Bennett on TV.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 21 Nov 2006 5:18 pm

... my point is that IMO tone *starts* with the instrument, and it's not actually "tone" that's hand-manipulated.

To avoid hijacking this thread, I put my response to that general idea in a different thread: http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/013904.html

Even though I have a somewhat different view, I don't actually think it really matters that much whether we call it "tone", "timbre", "sound", or "style". But what I think is important is that the clearly stated point of this thread is to discuss the various ways that the hands can manipulate what emanates from the instrument. I am absolutely convinced that hands are at least as important as equipment, even though I of course acknowledge that certain equipment may be required to get certain types of sounds.

Another point. I have been, long before I ever started playing steel guitar, a guitar player. I have played blues, jazz, country, hard rock, old rock, rockabilly, bluegrass, heavy mental, surf, punk, folk, whatever. There is an attitude among many electric (and also acoustic) guitar players that the equipment defines the sound. A huge industry has developed around that idea, and rock stars everywhere are paid big bucks to push that nonsense on the unsuspecting populace. Rock guitarists typically have miles more tone manipulators than most steel players use - a huge diversity of guitar types, pickup types, effects, different types of amps, speakers - you name it. Still - what is the main issue? The hands. As long as it's reasonably playable, a really good player can take a junk guitar and plug it into a $100 Crate solid-state amp and make it sound great, while a hack can take the finest $400,000 '59 Les Paul Standard and plug it through a Bradshaw rack loaded up with the greatest imaginable effects and into the finest '59 Bassman you ever heard, and it's still going to sound like garbage. I have seen it time and time again - quite seriously, in my vintage guitar shop several years back and continuing at guitar shows I go to - and I don't think it's any different for us steel players. Yes, various contraptions may be needed to get certain signature sounds - but I think the amount of hand-manipulation required to get that good tone is often underestimated.

All IMO, of course. Myself, I am really interested to hear how other players work with the factors that Reece and others have mentioned.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 21 Nov 2006 5:22 pm

So, what happens when you think you got all these elements down, the hands, the Bar, the Steel, the amp..all that stuff working for ya..

You're out playing and feelin' mighty fine..great tone..

"I'm a man on Fire with Tone "...

then a fellow Steeler comes up and says.

"hey dude.. it sounds pretty good but it needs a little more bottom end "...

t

mtulbert · Post by **mtulbert** » 21 Nov 2006 5:38 pm

Time to jump in....

A good amount of tone comes from the technique of the hands, but I can certainly show you how to mess up great tone with lousy electronics, or out of wack eq, etc. All those device are there to enhance the natural tone of the guitar and the player if used properly.

If any one player IMHO has an identifiable (is that even a word) it would be Lloyd Green. I can spot his playing a mile away. It is probably as much as his unique style but he has a sound that no one else has.

I have heard a couple of licks here and there that come close, but no one sounds like Lloyd except Lloyd.

Enough Rambling,

Have a great Thanksgiving everyone and count your blessings (even if your tone is only half as good as the pros).

Mark T.[This message was edited by mtulbert on 21 November 2006 at 05:39 PM.]

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 21 Nov 2006 5:46 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>then a fellow Steeler comes up and says.

"hey dude.. it sounds pretty good but it needs a little more bottom end "...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then I tell him - "De gustibus non disputandum est."

Buck Reid · Post by **Buck Reid** » 21 Nov 2006 5:55 pm

[This message was edited by Buck Reid on 22 November 2006 at 03:34 PM.]

Randy Beavers · Post by **Randy Beavers** » 21 Nov 2006 6:01 pm

Johnny, my most sincere apology for getting you in this.

You do validate this point though.

I had no idea what I was getting into when I posted on this subject. You can bet that won't happen again! I'll leave that to the experts.

Jimmie Misenheimer · Post by **Jimmie Misenheimer** » 21 Nov 2006 6:40 pm

I may regret this, but here goes. I don't really know which side of the fence I'm standing on here, but let me kick this into the mix. Among other things, I have two "Zums". These guitars are *EXACTLY* alike, other than appearance. One is an '88, {I think}, built new for Terry Bethel, the other is a '83, or '84, {I think}, built new for Johnny Cox. I wouldn't "take a farm in Texas" for either of them but - one sounds a little better than the other. I now have a pair of '71 Emmons pups on one, and a pair of "True Tones" on the other. I have had *BOTH* sets of pups on *BOTH* guitars, and while they both sound very good to my ear, the "88 *ALWAYS* sounds slightly better than the other. I take which ever one is closest to the door when I work. Now for the hard part. Can I turn my back and tell which I'm listening to? If I heard them "A-B ed", I *THINK* I could pretty much tell "10 times out of 10". One other thing. The better sounding of the two is not the best *PLAYING* of the two, no matter how I've set it up. Go figure... Jimmie

Greg Simmons · Post by **Greg Simmons** » 21 Nov 2006 6:48 pm

Does this look familiar...?
http://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=120229

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“Back then, everything was different, and you only saw it once; now everything’s the same and you see it over and over again"
-Peter Case

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 21 Nov 2006 6:49 pm

Stephen G....I have to say that from my observation over the years, any thread which has progressed this far without serious confrontation resulting in a lock-out or ill feelings, qualifies as far better than what you refer to as...."a mess".

To the contrary I'm impressed with the dignity, consideration, insight, intellectual input, and overall respect displayed within the thread, especially when considering sound/tone is such a "hot button" topic.

Incidentally, the word I used (inferred) was intentional, which as you know means, "to derive as a logical consequence".

Hope you enjoyed the Tony Bennett special as much as I. The arrangements production and performances were as good as I've seen in many years!

Randy B....If you're not an expert, I don't know who would be! I most sincerely hope your comment about not taking part in further discussions was simply "tongue in cheek".

Your exceptional ability, expertise, insight, and experience has the potential to be of great value, help, inspiration and information to many.

George Redmon · Post by **George Redmon** » 21 Nov 2006 6:57 pm

This is sad...this wonderful post started out as a valuable learning experience. Look at randy's post....I can't blame him, and we wonder why more pro's like reece and randy and johnny don't post?

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 21 Nov 2006 8:00 pm

Reece,
I have great respect and admiration for your talent as a musician, but I will not engage in a war of, or about, words, here in this thread of yours. You have your opinion, based on years of experience. My opinion is also based on years of experience, and I hope you will respect the differences between your opinion and mine.
Tony Bennett was nothing short of greatness.
And I'm outta here!
Happy Thanksgiving, y'all!

mtulbert · Post by **mtulbert** » 21 Nov 2006 8:13 pm

Randy Beavers said

I had no idea what I was getting into when I posted on this subject. You can bet that won't happen again! I'll leave that to the experts.

Randy, don't leave us!!!! As Reece put it you are in the expert class of player in my and many other's humble opinions. There are lots of us who value your opinions and your opinions count!!! Especially with your track record.

The type of information that you have given to many players here is a valuable tool to help us who want to improve on the steel.

Regards,

Mark T

Jody Cameron · Post by **Jody Cameron** » 21 Nov 2006 8:24 pm

I posted this in the past in response to a thread by Jim Saunders; the entire thread can be found here:
http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/013266.html

"I've owned so many guitars of every brand over the years, and I've studied this question mighty hard. It's been an ongoing "research project" for the last 25 years or so, you could say for me. Here are my conclusions - so far:
1. At least 75%, if not more like 90% of what we perceive as "tone" comes from the player himself (hands, heart however you want to subjectively define it...this cannot be objectively measured). You can either play, or you can't...AND other people will either like it or not...that simple.

HOWEVER...

2. The other 10 - 25% of "tone" IS affected by the type of guitar/gear one uses. Every guitar is a bit different; even ones that are made by the same manufacturer. For example, I've owned seven (7) different Emmons guitars in my career, and they ALL sounded a bit different, but still retained some basic element that defined them to my ears as Emmons'. That includes 5 push/pulls and 1 Legrande, & one LG II. I've also owned Dekley, MCI, MSA, Carter, Sho-Bud, GFI, Mullen, Zum, and I may be leaving something else out...bottom line is, I think I know from where I speak. I still own three different steels, a vintage Sho-Bud, a Carter and a Mullen. I use them for different situations and applications, although I could be pretty happy with just one of any good guitar.

Furthermore, I think that most all guitars made today are truly good, quality instruments, and in the right hands, they will ALL sound pretty good. So it basically comes down to what an individual prefers in that other elusive 10-25% of "tone", coupled with playability, etc.

BUT, I can almost GAURANTEE this: John Q. Public will not be able to discern the difference between a Carter Starter and a Mullen or a '65 wraparound when all are played by the same person in a live band situation.

And that friends...is my opinion. JC"