The Elements Of Tone!

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 19 Nov 2006 5:24 pm

Damir, I don't understand---You imply that tone is in the individual's hands, then at the bottom of your post, there's a blurb that says:"When tone matters," and a link to Promat guitars. So which is it?

Mike Wheeler · Post by **Mike Wheeler** » 19 Nov 2006 5:47 pm

Maurice said "Most will agree tone begins with the hands, so I will confine my thoughts only to that which comes in contact with the strings. (hands, bar and picks)"

Note that he said "tone begins with the hands". Not that tone is ONLY in the hands...BIG difference, in my opinion Let's contain our discussion to his original premise. Everyone can benefit from better hand technique, no?

I do agree with that statement. The better developed the hands are, the better the guitar can be "controlled" to produce the desired result. We all are individuals, though. Each hand is slightly different and thus, some items in Maurice's list could be more difficult for one player to perfect than another. Still, each of those parameters can be maximized to produce the best outcome for each person.

Each of the listed items could benefit from a thorough discussion of it's own. If we could, indeed, collectively identify each item's characteristic traits, we would be helping not only ourselves improve, but all the new steelers who read this Forum.

Having said all that (whew!), I've always wondered about the angle of pick attack. I, generally, vary it to produce subtle changes in my tone...a softer tone for more emotional passages by playing more off the rounded edge of the pick, then a snappier tone for higher energy passages by playing more on the flat surface. What about you guys?

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 19 Nov 2006 5:50 pm

Reece,
In the basic elements of tone I would like to include pitch. One of the main reasons steel players sound different from each other with all things being the same is different concepts of what sounds in tune to them. They both may be perfectly in tune and have slight differences in pitch. I notice that some players lean one way to get a pearly ,clear type sound and then lean the other to get a bit of twang or bite in there tone. I'm talking about almost nothing in bar placement. Really a feel thing.

I worked a bit with Buddy Charleton and he has codified most all of the issues you bring up in your list in his own way. I spent 2 hours with him one time doing nothing but working on how to hold the bar. One of the most productive lessons of my life.

Has anybody noticed differences between how Charlton gets his sound and how Lloyd Green gets his ? I don't know enough about how Lloyd does it to compare but it looks very different to me. I am only interested in the hands part. For purposes of discussion lets leave the gear stuff to another thread.

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Bob
upcoming gigs
My Website

Mike Wheeler · Post by **Mike Wheeler** » 19 Nov 2006 5:53 pm

Bob, could you give us an idea of BC's approach to bar technique?

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 19 Nov 2006 6:01 pm

I'll start with the breakdown

Left hand

12. Tightness of the bar grip.

The players that have a tone that I like and have checked out tend to barely grip the bar at all. They treat it like a violin bow. A relaxed and controlled strength. I went up to Jimmy Day at a gig after a tune and had him show me exactly how he held the bar. He seemed to be using almost no muscles yet he could completely control the bar. Buddy Charleton is the same and so is Joe Wright.

What I noticed over the yaers as my left hand has gotten more relaxed is that the overtones ring more even and clear.

Mike,
Buddy had me sorta wave the bar slowly on the neck until I was letting it fly across the room. Then he said Thats it ! The bar should feel like that in your hands. Keep that feeling and you got it. Don't worry about dropping the bar. That part comes easy.

There is more to it but that is basicly it.

It is very similar to one of Joe Wright's left hand lesson DVDs.

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Bob
upcoming gigs
My Website

[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 19 November 2006 at 06:08 PM.]

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 19 Nov 2006 6:04 pm

nothing but working on how to hold the bar. One of the most productive lessons

What did you learn? Did make some permanent changes?

Tommy Young · Post by **Tommy Young** » 19 Nov 2006 6:09 pm

i sure hope that some of u more and better tone players would try and explain how that we amature players can spend more of our practice time learning how to get a better tone the attack touch depth of pics angle , distance between bar and changer where to pic to get what type of tone i sure need all the GOOD advice i can get thanks Reece for bringing this topic of the hands the vibrato, blocking is all a part of our tone HELP i'm not a pro picker yet

Mike Wheeler · Post by **Mike Wheeler** » 19 Nov 2006 6:10 pm

What is the reasonong behind that light control? And what about dampening behind the bar?

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 19 Nov 2006 6:15 pm

Earnest,
Yes it made a permanent improvement in my playing. It was like learning how to drive smooth in a car instead of always pushing on the gas pedal or the brakes.

------------------
Bob
upcoming gigs
My Website

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 19 Nov 2006 6:20 pm

barely grip the bar at all

Sometimes it is necessary to push down pretty hard to avoid rattling strings.

Colby Tipton · Post by **Colby Tipton** » 19 Nov 2006 6:21 pm

I think it is 80 % in the thumb and first 2 digits of the right hand (First 3 digits in Reece's case), 18% in bar technique and 2% in other factors that are different with each person. Just my insight.

KENNY KRUPNICK · Post by **KENNY KRUPNICK** » 19 Nov 2006 6:42 pm

Hi Reece.

Those are great factors that each one of us are different,and each one has there own unique touch,and tone.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 19 Nov 2006 6:46 pm

Mike, actually he said "Most will agree tone begins with the hands". This assumes you subscribe to his premise. I don't think "most" do, if they really analyze what they consider "tone".

I maintain you don't change "tone" with your hands. You can change attack and do things Reece mentioned, which you'll note I agreed with him about - I just do not agree "tone" is in the hands. A lot of other things are, but not tone. As has ben said before, Buddy Emmons playing a 400 isn't going to sound like Buddy Emmons playing a Zum, and he sure doesn't change his hands from guitar to guitar. Reece playing a Stringmaster is going to is going to have a different tonality than Reece playing a Ric.

As far as this:

"I however respectfully disagree with you in that I believe most any instrument in the hands of a gifted player has the propensity to have a tone which is wide ranging and acceptable to most."

I never stated anything about that one way or the other.

I will now - I think the statement is true. I also think it has no relationship to "the tone is in the hands". If it did, you'd have to say "I believe most any instrument in the hands of a gifted player has the propensity to have a tone identical to every other instrument he/she plays." Which is, of course, false.

Ergo - the "style" is in the hands. The "tone" is in the instrument.

Don Barnhardt · Post by **Don Barnhardt** » 19 Nov 2006 7:08 pm

Reece...I appreciate you taking the time to share some of your experience with us. Yours is the most comprehensive explanation of hand techniques I have seen to date. Bet you didn't expect this to turn into a can of worms when you posted it. Any fool knows equipment makes a difference but the best equipment in the world dosen't sound worth crap without the hands to play it. By the way I've been listening to a Johnny Gimble tape this evening that you played steel on. The hands sounded pretty good!

Billy Carr · Post by **Billy Carr** » 19 Nov 2006 7:27 pm

I think I'll go with what Reese has posted here. He's a master builder and player as well. I can't see arguing or disagreeing with one of the greatest players/builders in the world. Reese is the best of the best, right along side Emmons, Hughey, Green and the rest of the best. Personally, I listen and learn from the best whenever I get the chance. To me, it's an honor to have such a player join in our conversions on the forum.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 19 Nov 2006 7:54 pm

I think Reece just meant to discuss the aspects of tone controlled by the hands and bar. The aspects of tone controlled by the instrument, amp, etc., are different albeit related subjects. Arguing over which, hand/bar tone or instrument tone, is more dominant or more important doesn’t seem to be what Reece had in mind. So to avoid a futile argument, maybe we should agree that there are many factors that contribute to tone, and simply specify which ones we are focusing on. If you look to definitions to sort this out (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timbre) they are not very helpful. The term “timbre” is often put forth as referring to those aspects of tone contributed by the instrument. For example, timbre is how we can tell if the same note is played by a guitar or a sax. However, most definitions end up saying timbre and tone are synonyms. So for the sake of this discussion, we could reserve timbre to mean the instrument’s tone, and use tone to refer to the hands’ tone. But outside this discussion, others might not recognize those specific definitions. There doesn’t seem to be a scientific set of terms that make these distinctions, so we will have to make up terms or definitions to keep from going around in circles. Much of what we consider tone or timbre is determined by the overtones. It seems pretty clear that overtones are affected by the instrument, electronics, hands and bar. So there is no avoiding that many factors affect tone. Therefore, we simply have to specify which factor(s) we are discussing.

Regarding the bar, I sometimes play pedal steel with a traditional bullet bar, and sometimes with a lighter grooved Dobro type bar (for blues and rock). The Dobro bar always sounds a little different to me, no matter how hard I press down. The mass of the bar, apart from my bar pressure, seems to have an effect.

Bob Hofner’s comments are very interesting. Is it generally the opinion of top pros that there should be almost no pressure on the bar, and that the bar is simply slid around with its own weight being the only pressure? It would seem to be hard for me to eliminate string rattle that way.
[This message was edited by David Doggett on 19 November 2006 at 08:01 PM.]

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 19 Nov 2006 8:07 pm

FWIW, Joe Wright teaches his students to exert pressure on the bar. I took his seminar last year, and he talked about this technique improving tone.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 19 Nov 2006 8:11 pm

Reese - yes, those are the ideas in my mind. Mass, mass density, bar pressure (force), and the distribution of these across the strings, as you point out, all enter into the picture, by my view of it. Lately, I have been trying to play acoustically, in a quiet room, to try to hear the natural tone of the guitar and my interaction with it, as I have done for many years on 6-string guitar. To me, it's the natural tone of the guitar, coupled with the way I attack it, that makes for "tone".

Jim - I think we all agree that the guitar is part of the tone equation. But a big part of the final "tone" is a result of listening to what is produced and using feedback - from our ears, through our brain, and to our hands - to modify it to our liking. Like you, I'm a 6-stringer, and I'm very fussy about my guitars. They each have their own "nominal" signature tonality. But the way I fret, bend, make vibrato, and the precise picking variables have a huge impact on tone. With the steel guitar, there's all of this plus the effect of the bar, which is, by itself, a vibrating solid structure. Different approaches can set up very different boundary conditions at that end of the string. I think these all can have a huge effect on "tone". I don't think it's just "style".

I think about it like this. Once you pick a guitar, it has a certain "nominal" tonality. One strums lightly across the strings, and there's a signature tone. So, why does each player sound different - often significantly different - even on the same guitar? Reese has listed 24 variables, each of which impact the attack, volume, and harmonic amplitude and phase content of the note(s) played.

One final thought. Again, once you pick a guitar, there you are - you have it. What can you really do something about to sound better? It's these variables and how you control them. It's you and the guitar. Sure, there are pickups, amps, effects, and so on. But you still need to use your hands to control them. The other stuff is a complicating factor, not a substitute for using the hands well. Naturally, IMO.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 19 Nov 2006 8:19 pm

"So, why does each player sound different - often significantly different - even on the same guitar? Reese has listed 24 variables, each of which impact the attack, volume, and harmonic amplitude and phase content of the note(s) played."

Because of those variables. But those are not "tone". Bobbe Seymour tried to explain the same thing in a thread a while back. Those are identifiable elements of playing style, but they don't define tone...if they did, a player would have the same "tone" on different instruments, which isn't the case.[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 19 November 2006 at 08:21 PM.]

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 19 Nov 2006 8:21 pm

As I have posted in other threads in the past, I've hated just about every steel guitar I ever bought... for the first week or so. During that time, I kept playing it until I learned how to get my tone out of it. Same guitar, same pickups, same amp settings, but I subconsciously adjusted my attack and the degree to which I 'dig in' to the strings to end up with the tone that my ears were waiting for. And it did arrive, eventually. But all along it was the 'nut behind the rear neck' that needed adjusting (aka, 'moi').

Jack Shults · Post by **Jack Shults** » 19 Nov 2006 8:31 pm

Well, I certainly am not a tone guru, but I can tell you this; several years ago, Reece came to my house and played my steel and, WITHOUT CHANGING ANY SETTINGS, and got that Reece Anderson tone that I have never been able to attain.

There has to be something in the hands, because he even used my picks and my bar.

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Jack Shults
MSA U-12
Evans Amps
Stereo Steel

[This message was edited by Jack Shults on 19 November 2006 at 08:33 PM.]

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 19 Nov 2006 9:05 pm

Jim S. - I was part of that thread, which was primarily about the effect of different pickups, and to some extent, other electronic stuff, not picking or bar technique. I agree that each guitar has a "nominal" tone, or timbre, which comes through, independent of pickups or signal processing.

But what I think Reece is saying, and I agree, is that bar and picking technique can - at least somewhat - change the "tone" or "timbre" of the instrument. By physically attacking the instrument differently, one can control which resonances are accentuated or attenuated. I certainly notice this heavily on 6-stringers. I'm not as experienced on steel, but I find I can do that to some degree there also. I think this is a critical part to my advancing as a steel guitarist.

There are, of course, certain guitars I prefer over others, because of their inherent natural tonality. But this far from negates the fact that the hands also control many aspects of this.

Good point, Jim C. It definitely takes me some time to dial in a guitar.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 19 Nov 2006 9:41 pm

Interesting, and in some case's the same,
as the usual suspects weigh in from
their usual point of view.
Even if this point of view, valid or not,
is not actually what is being discussed...

Bar mass certainly effects tone.

I play with a large bar,
a small Red Rajah bar and
a small Black tapered bar,
depending on the speed of the song,
the tone I want
and number of lifts needed too.

The tapered bar certainly aides fast lines
on C6 while adding more weight on the fat strings.

And I certainly use different downward hand preasure
for each bar, and differently for each neck too.
In general as little as possible to get a balance of sustain WITHOUT extra damping caused by too much presure.

The sound test Reece did makes perfect sense
as a total blind test.
I think though the differences would have been more apparent IF,
the listeners had heard a round robin
of the instruments while watching beforehand,
And THEN done the blind test.

I am sure I could set up several steels and optimized amps in combination behind a screen,
and then duplicate the sounds of other steels to a great extent. If not total disapearance of characteristic tones.
You can make a PP sound more like a AP with strong EQ.
And to some extent vica versa.
But more so in the right hands.

We have similar comparisions this at Audio Engineering Conventions,
with a similar result.
People can differentiate between tambors that
they can place to a speaker or instrument;
better if they have actually mentally placed the tone with it prior to blind listening.

If not then it is a crap shoot in most cases.
Though some speakers DO have a characteristic sound, even in the super high end studio market.
But placing those speakers in a different room they will sound much like another in it's idealized room.

I like Jim Cohen's comments about not liking steels untill his technique modified to fit the new steel.

I also note I was the only one to pick out
which tune was the only one done with a PP
on one of his albums.
He told me while others were still guessing.
To me it was clear, but I also thought that his technique was purposely accentuating the PP sound,
when compared to his other songs.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 20 November 2006 at 05:35 AM.]

Buck Grantham · Post by **Buck Grantham** » 19 Nov 2006 10:11 pm

It is really great that we live in the USA so we can disagree on anything we want to. I liked all of the answers on how to get good tone,I didn't agree with all of them so from now on I'm going to be watching my hands very closely when I'm getting a tone that I like. Sometimes I can go back in my music room and my steel sounds wonderful and other times I go back there and I could sware that some one has been fooling with my amp knobs. I know that my ears can really deceive me at times.I think I hear diffrent every day.[This message was edited by Buck Grantham on 19 November 2006 at 10:13 PM.][This message was edited by Buck Grantham on 19 November 2006 at 10:16 PM.]

Fred Shannon · Post by **Fred Shannon** » 19 Nov 2006 11:24 pm

"Those are identifiable elements of playing style, but they don't define tone...if they did, a player would have the same "tone" on different instruments, which isn't the case."

Then Jim, wouldn't the converse be true; If that be the case then any amateur player playing the instrument Buddy Emmons or any professional was playing, he/she would have the same tone as the Professional. I don't think so.

Phrend Phred

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"From Truth, Justice is Born"--Quanah Parker-1904