Good Tone From Being In Tune

Chris LeDrew · From: Canada

Here's a poignant post from Cal Sharp, included in an old thread a while back, about tone:

quote:
Once I get my guitar in tune, the tone just magically appears. Equipment, hands, talent, guitar color don't mean nothin' if you're not in tune. This may sound elementary, my dear Watson, but I think this fundamental is sometimes overlooked in the quest for a great sound. A steel guitar is so hard to get in tune and play in tune that after years of playing out of tune some players' ears get used to hearing it that way and they think they're in tune and wonder why their tone sucks. When you, f'rinstance, excite (whoo-hoo!) strings 5 and 6 at the fifth fret you should hear a definite ringing resonance and feel - and almost see (maybe in color) - the sound waves blending together perfectly, the same thing you get with tight harmony singing like the Beatles or the Louvin Bros.
Other players can affect your tone, too. It's amazin', Gracie, how much your tone can improve when an out of tune guitar owner stops flailing with his plectrum for a moment to take a drink of his beer and light a cigarette. So don't mistake unsatisfactory tone for just being out of tune.

I think Cal hits the nail on the head here, making a very good point about the origins of good tone. Without being in tune, good tone is not possible. If the guitar is full of beats, it will sound bad no matter which way you manipulate your bar, fingers, etc.

I thought this was worth its own thread, for fear of introducing this facet of tone on the other tone threads and drifting off-topic. IMO, trying to get good tone with right and left-hand technique before learning to tune properly is definitely putting the cart before the horse. I understand that many of the contributors on the tone threads are serious pickers for whom tuning is not an issue. But a word about the importance of tuning and good tone would go a long way for some of the less experienced players who may be getting their approach backwards.

Bill Mayville · From: Las Vegas Nevada * R.I.P.

Nothing like the truth
All beginning students/friends/pickers/I give a tuning chart.Yes it is an old Emmons
tuning chart from the factory.It is usally different than what they are now tuning to.
Not all like it.Some say it still sounds out of tune.Some will never get it in tune.I have two pickers coming this morning to see the new Jackson guitar. One is a GREAT picker.I think he is tone deaf,but he sure can play.After I tell him to tune my guitar ,I try it out.Sounds like a violin.Makes my eyes cross also.I could be wrong,but I have played with many different bands,And have yet to experience a out of tune comment for my steels.One instance is -22 for the F lever.Sounds like a long ways ,but it sure works.
Bill

Michael Douchette · From: Gallatin, TN (deceased)

I looked at this thread, walked away...

Came back, looked again, said to myself, "Don't get involved here..." and walked away...

Came back again...

"If the guitar is full of beats, it will sound bad no matter..."

So, you're saying that every plucked, hammered, etc. instrument sounds bad except for yours?

Cal said, "When you, f'rinstance, excite (whoo-hoo!) strings 5 and 6 at the fifth fret you should hear a definite ringing resonance and feel - and almost see (maybe in color) - the sound waves blending together perfectly..."

Unless I am misunderstanding, I believe the "waves" he is talking about blending are the very "beats" you say sound bad, no matter what.

I'm not going to post in this thread anymore, I'm just going to read it to see where it goes... but, if your pitches are "flatter than a plate of day old p*ss..." (the way I was told I sounded when I tried no beats for a while) they're flat, no matter what.

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Mikey D...

Shane Reilly · From: Melbourne, Australia

I just spent the last 1 1/2 hours tuning,listening to the tuning,by itself and with a track.I find If I'm happy with my tuning I strike the notes with greater confidence,which in turn produces a better tone.So Chris, I agree that this(tuning) is related to good tone.This is also related to knowing your instrument.I have an Emmons P/P and I find the better I understand the mechanics,the better my tuning,the greater my confidence,improved tone.This is what I'm discovering as a new steeler.Tuning seems to be such a sensitive and personal issue that it's a bit daunting when you start out,it can make it harder to find those "elements of tone"(thanks Reece).
Cheers, Shane.

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

Chris LeDrew · From: Canada

Here's a note I received from Jerry Fessenden regarding Cal's opinion:

Shane Reilly · From: Melbourne, Australia

I would asume Mr Brumley tuned it by ear till' it sounded sweet.Is this correct?

Chris LeDrew · From: Canada

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

"Unless I am misunderstanding, I believe the "waves" he is talking about blending are the very "beats" you say sound bad, no matter what."

I think you did misunderstand, and the intent was to describe the blending of correctly-tuned sound waves. ALL sound is a waveform...out-of-tune "beats" being an undesireable one, mostly. But even in-tune note have a waveform, and some blend better than others (i.e. a "minor second" isn't a very good "blend" in most cases).

I hope that makes sense.

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Michael.

Myself, I only enter in when the nonsense gets to the point where new players have their heads sucked into a whirlpool of hopeless confusion and they need to have Mr Emmons clear and concise comments posted, since he's the only one even the "upper shelf" players won't catcall, demean, and otherwise deride.

Some of them will even do it to him behind his back, and the latest one I heard is that "He was joking."

Minor Seconds which occur all over the place are not the only chords that have, or are supposed to have beats.

You tune it the way you want to.

It's kind of like an "averaged instrument calibration" in flying small planes.

Varying degrees of success happen at all levels, and it's a moving target.

You either fly or...

I think in the case of tuning specifics a certain Familiarity has set in WRT why/how people detune their guitars from "straight up" to try and minorize their thirds sixths etc et al, and play them "successfully" against instruments that don't.

So has it's Offspring.

EJL

Herbie Meeks · From: Arkansas, USA

From a, Methuselah
I have found it necessary, to hear very plainly ,The Lead Guitar, and/or all Fretted instruments, or Keyboard, To Stay In Pitch playing the Steel Guitar,
Using the Bar, I can (cheat,) in, Pitch Tenths, all over the Steel, The sluring in Tone Tenths, is what sets the Steel, and Fiddle apart from fixed note Instruments,
Lead Guitar Players, have been stretching the strings in Tenths, since the, Slinky Strings were put in use, for this very purpose, Some Lead Guitar Players, can come close to immitating the Steel.
If You Ain't In Tune with the band, and don't have time to Tune,( Cheat )
Don't play any open Chords, or Strings

Herbie

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Chris LeDrew · From: Canada

An excerpt from Jim Palenscar's Jeff Newman quote on Reece's Part II thread:

quote:
And then there is the final argument. Of all the those little camps of players who are so sure they have the cosmic truth about great tone, have we ever really stopped to listen to their playing and their tone instead of their incessant bickering about how who gets it?

There is an old English proverb I think: The proof is in the pudding. Do these soothsayers of truth make good pudding? Do they themselves make the kind of pudding you like to eat? If not, I would suggest that they avail themselves to enough of it to cover themselves from the belly up. And you need to find another cook.

And here is an excerpt from Eric's statement:

Gene Jones · From: Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)

quote:
"If You Ain't In Tune with the band, and don't have time to Tune,( Cheat )
Don't play any open Chords, or Strings"

IMO Herbie is right on! After tuning successfully by ear to the band for about 20 years, I paid $275 for the first generation Korg tuner so I could join the modern music world.

On my first job after buying this newest technology product, and confidant that the tuner must be correct because it was so expensive and my ears must be wrong, I stubbornly stayed with the needles on the tuner until the worst musician in the band sidled up to me at intermission and confidentially told me: "T don't want to offend no-one, but them guitars need a tuning"!

My optmism turned to pessimism, and was eventually validated by the one and only Jeff Newman when he made his profound statement that....."tuners lie"!

The premise of this thread is correct. Acceptable tone or anything else in the music spectrum is not possible until you are in tune.

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www.genejones.com

James Morehead · From: Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.

Tone is tone whether or not your in tune. Tuning just brings your tone into sonic focus.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

I have noticed that some players confuse "tone" with "intonation". That said, I do agree that there's not much use working on your "tone" if your intonation is really bad. Sure, some (minimal) beats may be accepted, and even desired, in certain circumstances.

I've heard the temper-tuned keyboard analogy/argument for decades, but you have to keep in mind that - while a properly tuned piano does have beats, an improperly tuned (or out of tune) piano has many more beats. There's a few pretty famous steelers that I just can't listen to for extended periods because there's just too much "beatin' going on".

Lastly, I'll add these thoughts Paul Franklin left with us some time ago...

David Doggett · Posted 28 Nov 2006 1:50 pm

I think new players deserve to know the real truth, with no mysteries hidden from them to keep them confused. They deserve to know that there is more than one tuning system. There is one system (Equal Temperament, ET) used by fixed pitch instruments such as keyboards, harps and fretted string instruments; and that is the one used by most meters. The meters are not “lying” (although I know Gene meant that as a figure of speech), they are just limited to the simpler system, unless they have Just Intonation presets. There is another system (Just Intonation, JI) used by vocalists and instruments played by ear, such as horns, and orchestral strings. Steel guitar can use either one. They should try each one, both alone and when playing with a group, and figure out for themselves what works best for them. I also think they deserve to know that while Buddy Emmons may use Equal Temperament, the majority of top steelers in the past and present tune by ear to something close to Just Intonation, as discussed by Paul Franklin. What works for Buddy might not work for everyone in all situations.

It just always seems to me that in the long run the truth is less confusing than a patronizing oversimplification that hides some of the facts. And I mean this in the kindest way – I know no one is intentionally being patronizing or untruthful, but instead we are all trying to be helpful. Sure, a complete beginner who can’t tune by ear yet can get by tuning straight up to a meter. But it is a worthwhile lesson to learn to tune ones instrument by ear. If you can do it both ways, you are in a knowledgeable position to choose what is best for yourself in a given situation.

Bill Rowlett · From: Russellville, AR, USA

Michael,

I'm right there with you. Having done it both ways, I've tuned ET for years now on the bandstand. I just like to know that I can play any string any where on my guitar and in any inversion and not be flat to the marker. I rarely play a triad for more than a second or so and the bar gives me complete freedom to sweeten any interval to match the band or vocalist.

If I'm playing in a situation where the steel is dominant, such as solo or trio work, then I may tune JI, but I usually don't need to. I don't get any out of tune complaints and I work a lot of $20 gigs

You can't win an argument on ET vs JI because there are situations where one of the two may be the best choice. A player with good ears can use both and it boils down to his choice as to what suits his playing. On the other hand, I've heard a lot of flat steel players…

Bill

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

All I know is that a pedal steel guitar has to be tuned to itself and no one chart will work. This is because of cabinet drop. Tuning by ear and then taking the numbers works for me. Tuning by ear takes preference before the meter, but the meter is necessary in live situations.

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Hmm... The original post....

If a guy was going after "Lousy Tone" I'd think detuning it from your tuning method would be a good start.

Of course the reverse would be true.

This ET vs JI stuff, after reading a couple hundred thousand words worth of it is mostly crap. I don't care who writes it.

A simple "Tempered Tuning" Search will yield a ton of it, like. Here, and Mr Emmons' comments directly Here

YMMV.

EJL

Chris: Actually Larry Bell painstakingsly posted some great sounding examples of different tunings on "Bud's Bounce" and the most prominent guy on the thread replied:

"Thanks for trying to clarify the differences. I personally don't beleive a test like this can prove anything either way."

I doubt I'd fare much better. I suffice knowing I am in tune when I play, get the jobs I want, and have for almost thirty years. Another ten or so would be nice.

Doug Jones, a local Pro thought I was getting pretty good "tone" here lately. I try and get the "tuning" out of the way, and go on to the other elements that Reece and others have started and added to.

[This message was edited by Eric West on 28 November 2006 at 08:51 PM.]

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

Thanks for the links, Eric.
I'm happy to have learned that ET stands for Emmons Tuning.
Mr. E had this delightful summation:

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

It's the simplest of things that people have refused to read...

One aspiring rocket scientist ( My good Friend Mr Doggett (and don't nobody think he isn't)),almost immediately posited that he doesn't play open string chords....

What's so funny is if Mr Emmons again changed his tuning system...

I wouldn't.

Even if he flew over in a light plane and zapped me in the eye at a picnic.

EJL

Roger Edgington · From: San Antonio, Texas USA

I don't think there is any argument that a tuned steel sounds better than one out of tune. If it's not in tune, it really doesn't matter much about the tone. As far as tone goes, a single string can have good or bad tone which is subjective anyway. Tone and tuning is all in how it's used. Some players like darker or brighter tone and it works for them. I don't think R Mooney would like the tone Curly Chalker used and visa versa. Is one tone bad? No

Gary Lynch · From: Creston, California, USA

Yikes, if a young beginner reads all these post, he/she may get overwhelmed and discouraged.

Nothing can tune like the human ear. That's why Byrd was so great in my humble opinion (not to mention those old timers like Mozart). With that said, thank goodness for the new digital virtual strobe tuners. They can do anything you need and much more. For a few hundred bucks, they are a great tool and much more accurate then the old needle meters. A great place to start if five band members have five different 'ears'

And, the steel guitar, NO FRETS! Thus the ear can take you to the note/tone you desire unlike the guitarists who are slaves to the fretboard which never plays perfect intonation up and down the neck.

It took me 30 minutes to write this little note, about the same time it took Mozart to learn his first composition.

It took all of thirty minutes for Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart to master his first musical composition. The work, a scherzo by Georg Christoph Wagenseil, had been copied by his father into Nannerl's notebook. Below it Leopold jotted: "This piece was learnt by Wolfgangerl on 24 January 1761, 3 days before his 5th birthday, between 9 and 9:30 in the evening."

[This message was edited by Gary Lynch on 29 November 2006 at 07:08 AM.]

Chris LeDrew · From: Canada

I should have known this would turn into a racket about JI vs. ET (which stands for Equal Temperament, for those who thought Charlie was serious). I don't know how I could've not seen it coming, actually. I was just talking in general terms about the importance of tuning and good tone. It is my belief that a big part of a steel's sound quality can be lost if the guitar is not in tune with itself, and I know there are many here who like to tune straight up to a tuner. I tried that and the results were horrendous....for me.

This brings up another point about tuning and tone, which Donnie H. introduced here. Steel players manually control their own intonation, unlike standard guitarists. Therefore, bar intonation can be seen as an important element of tone. If you have a good ear and can adjust your intonation consistently while playing, you are proabably able to use any type of tuning - because you are experienced enough musically to hear the sweet spots in the intervals and hone in on them with the bar. Therefore, your sound will be better.

[This message was edited by Chris LeDrew on 29 November 2006 at 07:54 AM.]

Gary Lynch · From: Creston, California, USA

Exactly! It becomes a subconscious element when playing. Bravo and well sated. Simple and to the point.

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