PSG a "sustain" instrument?

Eric Jaeger · From: Oakland, California, USA

I just had an experience that is new to me. A band contacted me because they'd decided they needed a "sustain" instrument. Two guitars, bass, drums. As I understand it, they think they need "color" to fill the holes and let the guitars float on top, punctuate and help the drive. I'm not really clear on this, and they aren't either, but the comment was "everyone has keys", but pedal steel would be a "real cool replacement for a B3".

Anyone run into this? How did you approach it, musically?

-eric

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

Get a Leslie.

Stu Schulman · From: Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)

Eric:I play Steel,and B-3 and would agree that the approach on both instruments can be very similar,and they both sustain well pads,and such.That being said there are many side roads to be taken on both instruments,have fun with it,Stu

Ford Cole · From: Texas

Question...Is there an effects pedal or
processor that will do a good job of imitating the B-3 or even a synth keyboard-type sound on PSG?

[This message was edited by Ford Cole on 22 November 2006 at 02:56 PM.]

Paul Norman · From: Washington, North Carolina, USA

What is a B3?

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

I also view the steel guitar as a "sustain" instrument, in fact that's the terminology I use. I currently play with a B-3 in my current band, and we have to watch out we don't get in each other's way. This B-3 player is a great listener, so I think we work it out OK.

The last band I left was getting more and more rockin and away from the things I wanted to do, so for the last two gigs I played with them, I put on the Leslie simulator on my Pod for most of the night, and did B-3 style comping. They loved it, and my final comment was - "maybe what you guys really need isn't a steel guitar right now, but a B-3. That's not what I want to do right now on steel." They didn't do it, but I think both instruments can do that sustained texture thing in many contexts. In fact, both the B-3 player and I are about to play on this band's new CD.

I used to do the same on guitar sometimes in a blues band - only then I had an actual Leslie 18. I don't think the "real" Leslie is necessary for a live gig - the Pod's emulator or one of several pedals is "close enough for gove'ment work", as they say. And believe me, it beats dragging one of those bloody things to a gig.

I also don't think that it's necessary to overdo the Leslie thing. Pedal steel is a sustain instrument right out of the box, if you want it to be. IMO, the key is to get good rich tone, find cool chord voicings that support but don't stomp on everything, play rhythmically - support the rhythm section, and don't play too many notes unless you're taking a solo.

Just my take.

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

I gotta go against the flow on this one. The pedal steel may have more "natural sustain", but it does not compare in anyway to the sustain you get from an organ, or for that matter, a horn, fiddle, harp, or an overdriven electric guitar which is the way most players play them. It's one thing to use the steel for it's uniqueness and perhaps to simulate some organ/B3 comping, but do not think you can capture the sustaining qualities or dynamics of an organ, unless possibly with some effects.

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[url=http://www.mightyfinemusic.com/jeff's_jazz.htm]Jeff's Jazz[/url]

John Steele (deceased) · From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada

Paul, a B-3 is a particular model of Hammond organ, renowned for it's use in rock and blues, as well as other things.

I'd also like to commend any band with two guitar players that still has "holes to fill".

-John

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

When I play rock, I often think in terms of how a Hammond would fit in the song. I use a Leslie emulator (H&K Rotosphere) to nudge the steel in that direction.

Then when they least expect it, I switch off the rotor and turn on the distortion for a rock slide guitar solo. It's very effective.

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
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David Doggett · Posted 22 Nov 2006 4:39 pm

I completely agree that steel, especially pedal steel with a volume pedal, is a sustain instrument. There are very few steelers here, and I often sit in for the first time with a group that has never had a steel. They always comment about how the steel fills out their sound and fills in the holes. One female singer-songwriter said it felt like my steel sound wrapped around her (like I was wishing I could

). I think steel has aspects of both strings and organ. Bud Isaacs said, when he put pedals on his steel and came up with his first pedal steel licks, he was trying to get the sound of twin fiddles harmonizing. Many country musicians grew up in Southern churches. I don't think there is any question that church organ and gospel organ have been hugely influential on the classic sound of country pedal steel. In country guitar bands, the steel takes the place of strings and organ. The volume pedal helps us sustain and swell like an organ, and also, the big powerful amps and the big 15" speakers help us get an organ-like sound. I think it is no accident that the banjo, which is at the opposite end of the sustain spectrum, gets ridiculed here on the Forum.

Alan Brookes · From: Brummy living in Southern California

I think PSG can always be a direct substitute for a string section, and it sounds better.

I, too, live in Oakland. Whereabouts are you ?

[This message was edited by Alan F. Brookes on 22 November 2006 at 04:53 PM.]

Stu Schulman · From: Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)

The first time I saw Curley Chalker play I thought that he sounded a lot like Jimmy Smith.

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

I thought B-3 was a band ..

Oh wait, I just remembered, it was the huge thing we used to carry around in the back of a Station Wagon..

Klaus Caprani · From: Copenhagen, Denmark

My MCI with some fat-strat drive= The mother of all sustain

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Klaus Caprani

MCI RangeXpander S-10 3x4
www.klauscaprani.com

John Lockney · From: New Market, Maryland, USA

I know what you mean Alan, there is some early country stuff with a string section instead of steel guitar. e.g. early Willie Nelson, the first Merl Haggard album.

It has occurred to me that instead of playing the melody (along with the singer) I should think more like a string-section to play fills and harmonize. It seems like the same thing could go for adding sustain/padding.

The the organ/B3 sound might be more appropriate for blues/rock ?

[This message was edited by John Lockney on 23 November 2006 at 08:03 AM.]

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

I agree with Jeff Lampert on this.. it has sustain but is not usually comparable to Keys, overdriven guitars, horns, woodwinds,various bowed instruments.. It is also percussive, cutting,top endy, bottom endy, middy, staccato... so many things...

Sustain???. thats part of it, but think of the great steel by so many great players.. some was sustained legato passages, and that will always be a part of the steel guitars "game plan".. but too many great steelparts were played short sweet and to the point.... Its a steel guitar... infinite sustain?... feh..... bob

[This message was edited by Bob Carlucci on 23 November 2006 at 08:44 AM.]

Eric Jaeger · From: Oakland, California, USA

For those who haven't run into the Hammond B3, it's one of the great weird instruments of all time. I think it was invented in the 1930's, and it uses "tonewheels" -- rotating wheels that generate the tones -- and lot of tube electronics. It was originally, I think, designed to be a "portable" substitute for a church organ. I've had to move them before, and the ones I've been around weigh about 400 lbs. (And we though PSG was heavy Smile

).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammond_organ

I've been experimenting with a compressor to increase the sustain, recognizing that PSG is never going to have the infinite sustain of an organ. I don't have a Leslie simulator (yet). And I'm trying to work out the musical part of "laying back". More passing chords, different inversions than the 6-strings are using, but I've never approached PSG from the standpoint of just "playing the changes".

I am beginning to think the idea is interesting but fundamentally out to lunch. I certainly don't imagine myself as Al Kooper. (Of course, if I listen to Al Vescovo again I may change my mind

)

-eric

p.s. I'd love a Leslie. I don't think I could carry one.

[This message was edited by Eric Jaeger on 23 November 2006 at 12:22 PM.]

[This message was edited by Eric Jaeger on 23 November 2006 at 12:23 PM.]

Twayn Williams · From: Portland, OR

An important tool to increase "sustain" is delay. In combination with the volume pedal you can get near seemless sustaining pads for as long as you want.

I think PSG and accordian are the two great faux-string section instruments.

Pads, color, the occasional lick, finding that perfect note, not playing, that's my goal on PSG. It helps that it's my secondary instrument, not primary.

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

I can't remember who it was.... that once said it was a "Percussion Instrument".

Sometimes I gotta agree, and especially with who I remember said it..

Actually a good simple phase shifter like the Phase 90 BE used for years works for a Leslie, or like several guys including one locally a real leslie would do it.

B3 sounds are primarily tagged with a repeated note, usually higher than the others. That's what Gatton used to do when he'd "immitate" a staccato jazz B3. B4 he died of course..

EJL

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Gene Jones · From: Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)

I remember a job that I was once hired for, and it ended up being a "rock" group that had contracted for a "country" job and needed a steel guitar to make it legal!

There was no rehearsal, and soon after we started the gig, I was playing what I knew to do from years of experience, i.e., play when I was supposed to, and lay out when I should; and the band leader came over and whispered in my ear...."Shouldn't you be playing something when you are not playing lead?

The meaning was clear...he thought that I was "slacking" and not earning my pay when I wasn't playing all the time. He didn't have a clue as to what a steel guitar was supposed to do.

Before some of you comment about "comping", let me say that I had lots of experience with western-swing groups where comping was appropriate.....but, that was not what this guy was wanting. He thought that I should be playing continuosly like a keyboard or a guitar player or I was not earning my money.

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www.genejones.com

Eric Jaeger · From: Oakland, California, USA

Alan, I'm up in the hills.

Donny, I bet you might enjoy it. Given the requirements, I'm honestly a little scared of it.

-eric

Alan Brookes · From: Brummy living in Southern California

Eric: Me, too. I live just off Park Blvd. My wife teaches at Montclair Elementary. Small world.

[This message was edited by Alan F. Brookes on 24 November 2006 at 10:29 PM.]

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

"The meaning was clear...he thought that I was "slacking" and not earning my pay when I wasn't playing all the time. He didn't have a clue as to what a steel guitar was supposed to do."

Respectfully, Gene - in that case you weren't doing what you were supposed to do in that context.

There is NOTHING that steel "is supposed to do". In some situations - like that one - the band expected you to play rhythm & lead parts, and not lay out. Instead, you took the tack that you should dictate that steel in a rock group playing country should be played just like steel in a pure country context, and it didn't work for the guy signing the checks. IMO you have to play what the boss wants. I don't think it was your fault, in that there was no rehearsal where either of you could explain your feelings...but the minute the boss asks you to do something else you should try to do it.

Regarding the "sustain instrument" idea - some great suggestions are noted above. Bobby's post also described what I'll do - I use a Korg G4 for the rotary effect, but otherwise it's the same idea; organ-like, "textural" (a term used for this oquite often in the 6-string world) playing, with a sneak attack of a David Lindley-like slide solo.

Note that a "B3" doesn't do the rotating sound...it's the Leslie hooked to it, if any, that does.

The organ sound is fun for a while, but gets pretty monotonous IMO when used as a pad for long periods (or whole sets - yikes!). The delay idea works really well at almost infinite sustain, and when used with a smooth distortion unit and smooth volume swell control can sound like a violin or cello. Add a harmonizer and you can get a small string section going.

I used to do the same thing on guitar often, switching between the organ-like sounds and string sounds. You don't play loud and just "float" over the music being played.

One important factor - it's almost mandatory when using either one to roll off the treble to a large degree. If your guitar does not have volume/tone controls (like most) then something like a Steeldriver II can be really handy - you have a tone control on the buffered side. Rolling that off about 1/3 will give you a much more realistic organ and string sound. You have to use a different distortion unit with it since there's no tone control on that side of the Steeldriver II, but there are far better effects for "string-like" distortion anyway.

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 25 November 2006 at 07:05 AM.]

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 25 November 2006 at 07:06 AM.]

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