Counting off songs

Nic du Toit · Post by **Nic du Toit** » 10 Nov 2006 6:01 am

Years ago I did some gig with a band .....the drummer did all the count-ins.....when we got to Tennessee Waltz, the count was 1, 2, 3, 4 band in ??????
The count had nothing to do with the tempo of the song...merely an indication for all to start at the same time. (I was so stunned that it took me about two bars before playing .....I was laughing too much!)

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[This message was edited by Nic du Toit on 10 November 2006 at 06:03 AM.]

Perry Hansen · Post by **Perry Hansen** » 10 Nov 2006 6:03 am

I tell everyone I will give a 3 beat lead in. But I have to know the tempo. Some singers don't like to stomp their feet. Oh well. They just have to live with my version.

Bob Martin · Post by **Bob Martin** » 12 Nov 2006 1:00 am

Just let the lead instrument start playing and let the rest of the band come in when they feel it!

Actually that probably happens more often than you think.........

3-4-1-2 equals 2 pickup notes before the band comes in and 1-2-3-4-1 equals 3 pickup notes before the band comes in and 1-2-3-4 equals everybody in on the top. Thats for 2/4 or 4/4 it doesn't matter.

In a well greased/oiled band the drummer can just start clicking sticks and the person that intros the song will start playing when he does the count in his own head at any time and the band will cue off the lead instrument. You guys are making this way to difficult it's just 2nd grade math

Waltz's and 6/8's are a little different but the same theory comes into play. If you want the simple explanation email me.

After re-reading more of the post plenty of folks have already explained the same thing I did sorry for the duplicate explanations

Bob [This message was edited by Bob Martin on 12 November 2006 at 01:02 AM.]

Chuck Cusimano · Post by **Chuck Cusimano** » 13 Nov 2006 11:11 am

Wade, After reading my earlier post, and some of the responces, I would like to just say, that counting off songs is in the eye (ear) of the beholder. A lot of times, like when everyone is aware, and knowledgeable of the tune coming up, a "Count" is not even required, when there are "pick-up notes". the band will know when to come in. On the other hand, If the band members, (set-in's) are not aware of the tune, you'd better take the time and explain the "count" and the type of rythem the song needs(off the mike) before you kick it off. And lastly, Don't trust EVERY drummer to know how to count songs, just because he HAS a set of drums. Come see us when you're not so busy.

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 14 Nov 2006 9:45 am

"Counting off" songs in a band that understands what they are doing is a good thing....however, counting off without understanding does nothing but confuse the band....and no one knows what to do.

The best frontman that I ever worked with, was Bobby Burnett, and he could work with anyone, rehearsed or not, because he started the song by strumming 8 bars in the key and the tempo, and you couldn't miss unless you were completely imcompetent.

Wade Branch · Post by **Wade Branch** » 14 Nov 2006 9:59 am

Guys,I really appreciate the helpful info.This post has shed a whole new light on counting off songs for me.It really isn't that hard to understand once you know the process.Thanks again guys !!!

Daryl Stogner · Post by **Daryl Stogner** » 14 Nov 2006 10:10 am

I don't know guys? But why don't y'all just play the song. I can see...1-2-3-4-1 everyone's comes in on the last one. But all this counting stuff gives me a headache. We always just play the danged thing. Always works somehow.

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 14 Nov 2006 10:14 am

What's the most famous "count-off"? Perhaps the Beatles in "I saw her standing there"?

Terry Edwards · Post by **Terry Edwards** » 14 Nov 2006 10:22 am

Yep, Paul yelling "1,2,3,faahh!!"

Or John with "sugar plum fair-ry, sugar plum fair-ry"! I forget what song that was.[This message was edited by Terry Edwards on 14 November 2006 at 10:25 AM.]

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 14 Nov 2006 3:37 pm

There are some good practical suggestions above. But at one point Wade asked what the music theory explanation is. So I’ll make a stab at that. Not all songs start on the first beat of the first measure. In written music, the beats in the first measure before the first note are written as rests, then the notes start (the pickup notes). Sometimes the last phrase of the song is used as an intro. Again, the phrase may not begin on the first beat of a measure, so there are rests before the notes start. The count off simply marks the beats during those rests. If the song starts on the first beat, then there needs to be one full measure counted off to establish the tempo and cue everyone where beat one will be. If the song (or the intro) starts toward the end of a measure, then you could count off just the partial measure. Or alternatively, you could count one full measure, then the partial measure.

The reason it gets so complicated is that you really have to know the song, and what beats the first notes (the pickup notes) come on, and what the values of those notes are. It varies from song to song. Most of the practical suggestions above seem to assume that the first notes will be quarter notes. But that is not always the case. One solution is for the count off to simply mark the tempo, without referring to any particular beat number. The lead instrument or vocalist comes in with the pickup notes or intro whenever they are ready, then everyone else joins in. With well known songs, that can work pretty well. If you want everyone to come in together with the pickup notes, that’s harder. Experienced musicians can do that with well known songs. But to really be sure about it, you need to rehearse the count off, and do it the same way every time. Without such rehearsal, the lead off could hum an example, or they can say what beat to come in on, or in some other way (such as Jimbeaux’s system) clue the group what to do. For some songs it is simple and almost automatic. But for others, it ain’t. That’s what rehearsals are for. It may look simple and automatic with every song for an experienced group. But you don’t know how ragged they were the first few times – you’re just seeing the zillionth time. If it's a studio recording, you can bet they started it a bunch of times before the take you are hearing.

Duane Reese · Post by **Duane Reese** » 14 Nov 2006 4:20 pm

I'll tell you what's annoying is my old drummer that I worked with for a long time, whenever asked to count something off, it was always kind of a surprise. Let me explain what I mean...

I've tried to explain to him to just go 1-2-3-4 or 1-2-3-4-1 or whatever, and he'd give you something like this:
1-/-2-/-1-2-3-4
Or...
1-/-2-/-3-/-4-/
Or even...
1-/-/-/-2-/-/-/-1-/-2-/-1-2-3-4
Many possible variations of the above have happened. So if you were starting it out (or whoever was), even though it all added up, if you were starting on say, the 2nd or 3rd beat or on an eighth between those, it made it confusing - not because you didn't know where you needed to start but because you weren't sure if he was even thinking the same song, and by the time you'd figured out what he was going to say next and when you may have lost where you were and told him to start over again, and exactly what you wanted in a count. I think this may be due to an alarm clock he had when he was younger that had a song alarm on it that counted off all compounded like that.

The last band I was in with him had been together for probably over a year an right up until the end, I'd have to show him what kind of count I needed, probably 5 or more times a night. It seems to make for a recipe for train wrecks

Terry Sneed · Post by **Terry Sneed** » 14 Nov 2006 4:30 pm

The only exceptions might be on a 3/4 time I would count 123, 223 with no pickup notes, and 123, 22 with the intro note(s)

That's the one I've been lookin for, the 3/4 time count. Thanks Ken

Actually, you can order Chas Williams book from Bobbe Seymore "The Nashville number system" it covers a lot more than just the number system, it shows how to count off on 4/4 3/4 2/4 6/8 time, and there's a bunch of songs charted out in the book also. Very much worth the $19.00 for the book.

Mike Shefrin · Post by **Mike Shefrin** » 14 Nov 2006 5:32 pm

1 2 3 4...

 Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Duane Reese · Post by **Duane Reese** » 14 Nov 2006 7:00 pm

We know Shef, We know. Heck, neither would I in your place.