Non pedal popularity among pedal pushers

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 12 Dec 2005 12:28 pm

I want a pedal steel for my 50th birthday (that's 3 years from now),- mostly because of the harmonic possibilities. I think (but I don't know) that the way you 'work' the steelbar when playing lap steel solos helps you 'connect' better to what you're playing. Just a theory of mine.....

Steinar

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www.gregertsen.com

[This message was edited by Steinar Gregertsen on 12 December 2005 at 12:45 PM.]

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 12 Dec 2005 1:04 pm

It is hard to believe but I'm creeping up on one year with my pedal steel. I feel like I'm just starting to crack it. It sat idle for a long while, just too frustrating. but I kept at it little by little. It is just beginning to get a little fun, but man it has been hard faught. It least with a guitar you can strum out Blowing in the Wind after a couple of weeks.

I'm just now starting to jam with it. But last night it really started to sound good. But at least 3 times in the last year I was ready to sell it.

C. Brattain · Post by **C. Brattain** » 12 Dec 2005 1:25 pm

At 73 yeas of age I really like nonpedals much, much better because I do not have to walk around while I am playing.

Don Kona Woods · Post by **Don Kona Woods** » 12 Dec 2005 2:27 pm

Speaking of musical expression of the steel guitar communicated to the audience, let's say over several measures, and where it can be fully appreciated by listener rather than player - Assume we are playing with a band.

Is it best done with chordal expression, playing with as many notes as possible?

or

Is it best done with single string picking with emphasis on melody line or some variation thereof?

Whatsha think?

Aloha,
Don

Stephan Miller · Post by **Stephan Miller** » 12 Dec 2005 2:52 pm

Howard-- I think there's a lot of movement across the border in both directions. Two months ago I couldn't have imagined myself behind a pedal steel, but now I kinda hear it calling. The moving tones and expanded harmonic range available for country, jazz and much more-- thinking about this a lot.

At the same time, my hands are full just trying to learn and develop an 8-string non-pedal (lo-hi 6/b7-1-3-5-6-1-3-5) tuning. Hacking my way through a couple of jazz tunes and making new discoveries every day. There's a whole bunch of cool 3- and 4-string chords under the straight bar-- add in slants, bends and open strings and it's a real treasure hunt...

Next move could be the 10/12 string SS route, and from there probably pedals.

All I can say for sure is: I'm in enough trouble right now!

--Steve

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 12 Dec 2005 2:52 pm

Is it best done with single string picking with emphasis on melody line or some variation thereof?

This gets my vote ...

An occasional double stop or chord strum is a nice embelishment ... at the end of a phrase.

But my enjoyment of playing increased "many fold" ... when I abandoned the idea of harmonizing each note in the melody.

Just my opinion ...

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Aiello's Cast Steel Guitars


My wife and I don't think alike. She donates money to the homeless and I donate money to the topless! ... R. Dangerfield

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 12 Dec 2005 3:42 pm

Have an arsenal full of various ammunition and fire the appropriate round at the appropriate time.

And yes, Stephan....it's moving in both directions.

Roy Thompson has been putting pedal changes on the Leavitt tuning (posted in Pedal Steel or Steel Players) and has posted his par for the course beautiful sound clip. Engaging levers and pedal prior to picking the note(s), he has derived the best of both worlds.

Lone Star Pedal Steel Co. has a non pedal S8 with a few cable pedals.

Gerald Menke · Post by **Gerald Menke** » 13 Dec 2005 9:10 am

I am having a butterscotch 10 string SS made for me as we speak, the factors that have drawn me to the non-pedal world are how pure the instruments sound and how much improvement I notice in my PSG playing if I try to play some of the songs I usually do on PSG on a non-pedal steel. I have also been playing a lot of reso for bands and in the studio lately and having a blast.

One thing I still don't understand is why my Supro lap steel sounds so much "bigger" than any of the the PSGs I have played. Once I played an old Bakelite Rick through a Deluxe and could not BELIEVE how giant the thing sounded. I played my PSG immediately afterwards through the same amp and it sounded teeny by comparison. So for me the gorgeous pure tone of a non-pedal and the fun of slanting and doing lots of hammer-ons and pulloffs have done got me in a non-pedal tractor beam.

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 13 Dec 2005 9:40 am

One factor may be (and my experience is limited on PSG) the string spacing. I know that with six & 8 string lap steels, I can dig in more for tone and attack. On the narrower PSG spacing, I'm "skimming" more. I've not played enough to get used to standard PSG spacing so I may be atypical of the experience here.

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 13 Dec 2005 10:01 am

Gerald-I think you are on to something there. I play my Supro and I can't believe the "fatness" of the tone on this thing I got as a 10 year old lap steel student in the 60's-I used to be under the impression as a kid that it was strictly a student model and all that my parents could afford.

The owner of the music studio where I took lessons had a gorgeous Gibson with a sunburst finish and she could play darn near as clean as Jerry Byrd, and I remember that being my first case of "guitar lust."

Little did I know after picking up the instrument again after such a long layoff that Supros are held in high regard! Our local guitar builder and repairman did some work on the tone pot awhile back and he said he has always thought they were better sounding lap steels than the old Gibsons he has had come through his shop.

At a regional steel jam here in April, the guy next to me, who is one of the best steelers in the area, was noting when one of the other fellas took a turn on his Bakelite-despite the presence of some killer pedal guitars at the jam-that "the Bakelite might be the best sounding guitar in the room!"

There is something about the tone of a good lap/non-pedal guitar that is unique, just sort of gets you in the gut. That's why I'm waiting to get through the holidays and receive the thumbs up from the wife to place the SuperSlide order!

Watching and listening to Bobby Black play his 12 string SS last month out here with the western swing band Lost Weekend was a special treat. What a great player!!!

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Mark

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 13 Dec 2005 1:40 pm

A most interesting post; one worthy of everyone's interest and response.
When us olde timers started to take steel guitar lessons, we knew from NOTHING! No knowledge about pedals; string variable spacing at the bridge vs. the nut; height of strings above the fret board; fret board graphics or color choices; low impedance vs. high impedence pickups; plastic vs. metal finger picks; bullet bars or flat bars; wrist angle to bidge or strings; ARM RESTS; muting; volume swells; bar tremelo; tableture; circle of 3rd, 4th or 5ths, or whatever; what strings went with what other strings; whether to play one note or two or three; GRIPS or multiple strings; etc., etc.
Today as evidenced in much of the Forum contributions of the day or week, we seem to have more mechanics; pyscologists; ergonomic specialists, Guitar designers, builders, electricians and fella's interested in how to become a successful steel player without investing the time or effort in learning WHAT the steel guitar is; or, how to understand the darn thing or HOW TO PLAY IT!
Playing the steel guitar, as I have argued before, that is, to play it correctly, takes many, many more years; than let's say, a Tamborine or Tri-Angle or Cymbal. Perhaps some of you, because of your musically destructive, deeply ingrained attitude, are in the wrong study hall when it comes to learning to play the steel guitar.
Steel Guitar playing is an ART FORM. One MUST START with BASICS; They MUST MASTER those basics first before moving on to anything else. Without out it, you're like a ship without an rudder. NO MATTER HOW LONG it takes you've got to understand and learn the basics.
WHY not learn what it is; how to play it; what you one day hope to sound like; the variable avenues for achieving that goal; get you ONE INSTRUCTOR and stick with he/she until you have reached a level a basic compentance (like a couple of years or more);
BEFORE YOU START DESIGNING A NEW STEEL GUITAR OR TUNING THAT YOU HOPE TO FOIST UPON THE MUSIC WORLD.
Learn to play the steel guitar correctly and you can play ANY STYLE of music you enjoy hearing on either a lap steel or pedal steel. Makes no difference. THINK ABOUT IT.
A Steel Guitar is a steel guitar!!! Want to learn how to play it, go to step one; then step two...........

Mat Rhodes · Post by **Mat Rhodes** » 13 Dec 2005 2:14 pm

What I'm in awe of over you non-pedal converts is that you actually have enough practice/woodshed time to "reinvent the wheel", learn the new logic, and get good at your new instruments without losing ground on the old one. The fact that it's taken me many years to become halfway proficient on just one tuning (PSG - C6) is hard enough, but how do you take on a completely different beast without your other guitar(s) getting jealous?

My PSG doesn't know about my Remington D10 nonpedal, and I hope to keep it that way! I'll occasionally have a once-a-year fling with the NP, but the PSG can tell that there's something different about my "touch" when I've strayed for too long. She doesn't like it.

I think Jeff Newman once remarked that playing two tunings (necks?) was like being married to two women at once: neither would be happy.

My hat's off to you guys. I don't think I could ever serve two masters without paying for it.

Matt [This message was edited by Matt Rhodes on 13 December 2005 at 02:19 PM.]

Bob Hickish · Post by **Bob Hickish** » 13 Dec 2005 2:57 pm

Ray & Matt Both have good points !
Back in the early 70's when I took up
Pedals , I got into a fix that I thought
I would never recover from , and that
was ! Playing ped's I'd always forget
and go into a non ped. mode ! and playing
non ped . I was looking for ped's ! needless
to say , I was really messed up . so I put
the old string master away and lived in
the wood shed ! I finally mastered a
mediocre ability and continued with the band !
In resent years I took up steel again and
just love the old String Master ! The ped's
are still set up in the music room ! tempting me
every day . I think I will stay non/ped for there
are 3 top class pedal players in this are and I could
never hope to out do them , and I have a boss
that loves the old stile Steel ! and it don't get
better than that .
We'll be at the Eagles this Saterday ! come on
over Ray !

Hick

Don Kona Woods · Post by **Don Kona Woods** » 14 Dec 2005 12:45 am

Howard,

This phenomenon is happening because pedal steel guitar players are coming into a special age of enlightenment.

Aloha,
Don

Ron Brennan · Post by **Ron Brennan** » 14 Dec 2005 5:20 am

Don,

Yes, you’re right on point, the steel guitar age of enlightenment or renaissance. We clearly are learning more about each other (non-pedal VS. pedal). This is a wonderful thing, SGF. TX
Rgds,

Ron

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 14 Dec 2005 5:59 am

One of these days I gotta get the old Supro out of it's case and set it up. This thread is bringing back memories of front porch gigs 30 years ago.

Bob Hickish · Post by **Bob Hickish** » 14 Dec 2005 6:16 am

Edit
to say Sorry guys Just a little
to pithy this morning ![This message was edited by Bob Hickish on 14 December 2005 at 01:34 PM.]

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 14 Dec 2005 7:18 am

That right. It's all about the music.

The string height, nut width,weight, bar....etc....those things are irrelevant because everyone has their preferences and uses what fits them best. I know that when I sit down to play my 7 string DustPan, I like to wear drawers that don't ride up on me. 'Cause if they do, I'm not playing my best.

But it's what we take from one instrument and apply to the other. Billy Robinson has applied some terrific pedal sounds without pedal.

Stacy Phillips has a little chord book for 6 string dobro with all kinds of chokes & slants that gets him a lot of advanced chord voicings.

I like the way Herb Remington plays, using pedals more for chords and tunings, than the moving tones. His technigue justifies the music that he plays and the sound that he wants.

So, I think that the gap and/or differences are being melded by some and this invites music to evolve.

[This message was edited by HowardR on 19 December 2005 at 07:30 PM.]

Gerald Menke · Post by **Gerald Menke** » 14 Dec 2005 11:12 am

Dear Howard,

I am in your debt for bringing Jim Heffernan to New York last spring, I learned so much that day. This thread got me thinking, would you ever consider doing a non-pedal steel workshop like that, say, everybody could only bring a steel tuned in C6, for example, six strings on up to 12. I would jump at the chance to study with you and our NYC brethren if you brought someone up who could illuminate things the way Jim did that day. I would volunteer my help to you to help set up if that might make a difference.

Thanks for starting this fun thread.

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 14 Dec 2005 4:09 pm

Hi Gerald, I'm certainly open to this. I've been and will be fairly busy in the work aspect of my life. That's why I haven't begun the steel jam theory that I have in mind.

I have good space available on Sundays. I could use help for sure and I really would like to get things rolling. Let's take this to email.

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 17 Dec 2005 6:11 pm

I played no pedal for so many years, I can't even remember. lwhen i went to a double neck , I used the other neck to get my dim, minor 6th, 9th, and 7th chords. So I was always jumping from one neck to the other.

When I finaly got my Gibson Electra-Harp used in 1946 with 6 pedals and the same 8 strings. I saw that Now to get that other neck, I just had to push a pedal, very smooth and I didnt have to worry about dropping my bar.lol. I had a good one to learn from Alvino Rey he showed me the way.

But in the last analysis, Howard, I still play my steel like a non pedal and just use the pedals mostly for the right chords. And they are handy......al

Merry Christmas

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 18 Dec 2005 5:52 am

My take on this is that the more ways you can "see", the more you can play. Playing non pedal really makes me THINK.

Playing pedals really makes me THINK.

When you spend practice time thinking and seeing, you are better able to just play when it is time to perform at real time speed, when there's no time to THINK in the same relaxed way.

The sound of the reso can't be beat!

When I say think, I mean to really know what the notes I am playing are against the chord of the moment, and if the position I am in is optimal for the phrase. I keep Lloyd's sage advice of finding 3 or 4 different ways to play a phrase in mind...this careful way of thinking keeps everything unfolding constantly, and is one of the amazing and frustrating) things about the instruments.

Lastly, it depends on the style. I played with a rockabilly/Western type band for awhile and the Dual Pro was perfect for the music both in sound and approach.

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

[This message was edited by John McGann on 18 December 2005 at 05:53 AM.]

Kay Das · Post by **Kay Das** » 18 Dec 2005 7:37 am

I regard them as two different instruments with some common DNA....you may agree that they complement each other...
http://www.hsga.org/membersrecordings/KayDas/ILoveYouBecause.mp3

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kay

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 18 Dec 2005 8:19 am

the more ways you can "see", the more you can play

two different instruments with some common DNA

Those two thoughts, to me, sum it up right there.

I've enjoyed and appreciate the responses to this thread.

Kay, it was nice to meet you in Joliet and thank you for the ride (the scenic route) to the airport.

[This message was edited by HowardR on 18 December 2005 at 08:20 AM.]

Kay Das · Post by **Kay Das** » 18 Dec 2005 8:51 pm

Howard, enjoyed meeting you and thanks for introducing this nice thread, lovely dialogues...

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kay