A word of unsolicited advice from an oldie!

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 26 Oct 2006 6:51 pm

I started playing non-pedal steel in 1948. I got my earliest start on PSG with a home-made attachment, about ’53. Graduated to a ‘real’ PSG in 1957. I stopped playing or even owning a non-pedal steel for many years after about 1965. Then in the mid-70's I got the urge to play non-pedal steel again and purchased a nice used one. From then on I was involved with playing both styles until 1979, when I ‘thought’ I decided not to play PSG any more and to just concentrate on non-pedal style. That lasted about 6-months into 1980, when it became necessary to have a PSG if I wished to have any work at all! Finally in about ’04 I again decided that since there was no work heading my way anyway, I would once again drop the PSG and just concentrate solely on non-pedal steel! WRONG Again! I sold my non-pedal and bought a PSG and soon decided that I wanted a bigger PSG and bought a new one. Hang in there, I'm almost up to date! A short time ago I decided that besides wanting to once again play PSG, I also wanted to get deeply involved in the non-pedal style. So now, along with having a very nice PSG; I am also waiting for delivery of a very nice BIG non-pedal steel! All that to say this: To think that you will give up one style (and sell it) to enable you to acquire the other style and then you'll be happy can be very misleading and fartherest from the true outcome! (This is my unsolicited advice.) If you play one style and want to play the other style, you might be doing yourself a big favor by keeping what you have and doing your best to acquire the other style and then play both, because; once you've learned to play either style, you won't ever be totally happy if one is missing from your inventory of instruments! I know from experiencing it the long, hard way! ------------------
“Big John”
a.k.a. {Keoni Nui}
Current Equipment
[This message was edited by John Bechtel on 26 October 2006 at 08:01 PM.]

Harry Dietrich · Post by **Harry Dietrich** » 26 Oct 2006 7:08 pm

Sooo...I'm curious to find out what NPS you are getting, Big John?

Harry

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 26 Oct 2006 7:16 pm

Most players go through some stylistic transistions over time.

But to assume that because you are taking on a new style,
that it's predisessors are permamantly shelved
is short sighted.

Example if I had said; Oh, I play jazz now,
no need to keep a rock n roll instrument, since I am a JAZZ PLAYER,
then if suddenly a fun rock gig popped up,
I wouldn't have been able to take it.

Or hey I am playing a lot of bluegrass now,
no need to keep the tele,
only to have a friend call and say;
hey we got a classic country gig TONIGHT,
we need a picker tonight, and maybe longer,
you available.

If you learn a style, it's your's forever,
but ya need the tools to do the job.

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 26 Oct 2006 7:20 pm

Harry; I have ordered what I believe is the ‘first’ model of it's kind built by Herb Remington. I am anxiously awaiting delivery of a short~scale (22½”) Triple~10-str. Steelmaster. I probably have at least another month to wait!

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“Big John”
a.k.a. {Keoni Nui}
Current Equipment

Al Terhune · Post by **Al Terhune** » 26 Oct 2006 8:50 pm

John -- you're absolutely right. If steel's in your blood -- and you've played both pedal and nonpedal, it's almost impossible to up and leave either. For many years I concentrated on lap and all but dropped pedals, but then again was extremely excited to revisit the pedals and levers. I'm still way more comfortable on lap, but am getting closer to my pedals and levers.

Al

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 26 Oct 2006 9:56 pm

Al; My experience was just the opposite! I depended on PSG to make a living ever since ’67 and never really made any money playing non-pedal except for a very short period in the mid-50's! So, I'm working on perfecting my non-pedal playing, but; it's the same effect either way! Actually my biggest interest is in the non-pedal style. I don't ‘need’ either any more, but; at my age and timing, it's going to be what I ‘want’, from now on!

------------------
“Big John”
a.k.a. {Keoni Nui}
Current Equipment

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 27 Oct 2006 12:36 am

I sure do miss my old guitars a lot more than I miss my old wives or girlfriends....

Robert Thomas · Post by **Robert Thomas** » 27 Oct 2006 1:06 am

Interesting post, but for those who are interested in playing both pedal and non-pedal style you only need one pedal steel. When you want to play non-pedal style just don't use the pedals. I have done this ever since I started playing pedal steel in 1971, after 20 some years of playing non-pedal.

Ernest Cawby · Post by **Ernest Cawby** » 27 Oct 2006 4:16 am

Try this, with A&B pedals you have A major tuning on some strings, like on the 8th fret the guitar is in the key of F and play Song of the Island as on a 6 string guitar tuned to A. With B&C pedals down you have a C# m tuning and Little Coquet sounds just like playing on C6. A lot of fun doing this.

Edited to say with no pedals you have a E tuning on some strings, just like a triple neck, none pedal.

ernie[This message was edited by Ernest Cawby on 27 October 2006 at 05:17 AM.]

Sonny Jenkins · Post by **Sonny Jenkins** » 27 Oct 2006 6:25 am

,,,,and with e's lowered you have a nice B6 !!,,,of course,,,it just don't look the same as that plank with strings stretched across it,,,

Winston Street · Post by **Winston Street** » 27 Oct 2006 6:39 am

John,
this is interesting. I've never played non-pedal but I am teaching a friend of mine pedals that has always played non-pedal. Well to make a long story short, he has taught me in return some bar slants that has just opened a new world to me on my pedal steel. I've always used bar slants but his approach is somewhat different than I've thought of to date. Bye the way, thanks for all of your emails, I've picked up quite a bit from you too. I guess I just go to show that you can teach an old dog new tricks.

Winston

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 27 Oct 2006 9:53 am

I've been playing some non-pedal style on my PSG, but; it's just not quite the same and you really are limited by doing it that way. If I want to play both styles, my best alternitive is to have two different styles of guitars! I also can't quite understand why you would try to make a PSG sound like a Non-Pedal guitar or Visa~Versa! I'd rather go all the way, both ways! Of course, I can understand doing anything to get through a show, but; not really on a continuous basis!
------------------
“Big John”
a.k.a. {Keoni Nui}
Current Equipment
[This message was edited by John Bechtel on 27 October 2006 at 10:57 AM.]

Gerald Menke · Post by **Gerald Menke** » 27 Oct 2006 11:17 am

Thanks for your advice John. Some of us go through gear like we are changing our socks, I think to the exclusion of really focusing on what matters, namely sitting down and getting good playing out of the gear we have. I appreciate your sharing this with us.

I sure hope I am still playing in 40 years!!

Darryl Hattenhauer · Post by **Darryl Hattenhauer** » 27 Oct 2006 1:28 pm

Robert,

Using a pedal for both pedal and non-pedal would certainly save money.

When you change tunings from common pedal tunings to common non-pedal tunings, are there some tunings where you have to change strings and some tunings where you don't have to?

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"I take my wife everywhere, but she keeps finding her way back." --Henny Youngman

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 27 Oct 2006 2:54 pm

It just depends! A general answer would be ‘yes’, sometimes PSG strings won't quite make it! (2) tunings that of course will work are Byrd's E9: B~D~E~F#~G#~B~E and C6/A7: A~C#~E~G~A~C~E, D9: A~C#~E~F#~A~C~E, A6: F#~A~C#~E~F#~A~C#~E and quite a few others will work as well, if you play a D–10. But, you can actually get most of the above tunings using your E9 set of strings! You can also get the B11 on the E9 PSG-Neck by using (A)-(B) pedals and Lowering just the wound-E to D# and cancelling out the Lower on the plain E-str.! Or you can tune the whole thing by hand. Of course with these tunings, you won't normally use all 10-strings either! . . . . The main reason for my original Post was kinda aimed at the growing number of people I see Posting that they are going back to PSG or visa~versa and are putting their present steel up for sale in order to make the change and from my experience I've learned that it might not be the smartest thing to do! Eventually, I think they will regret giving up one for the other! If you play both styles, I think you're stuck with the ability! I think from now on the only changes I'll be making will be when I stand up and reseat myself behind the other instrument! IMHO, it's the only senseable way to go! I'm not too keen on retuning either!

------------------
“Big John”
a.k.a. {Keoni Nui}
Current Equipment

Robert Thomas · Post by **Robert Thomas** » 27 Oct 2006 4:57 pm

Hi Darryl. I don't change any strings. I just play the C-6th or the E-9th without using the pedals. You can play many varieties of tunes and sounds without the pedals. Of course you have go back to the beginning before there were pedals and use a lot of slants, etc, but the sound you get is different and very acceptable. E-9th works very well for Hawwaiian tunes just as C-6th.
Play to your own taste and style. I have done it for many years and since I started way before the advent of pedals it comes quite easy for me. No need for a different steel.
Just my opinion.
Have fun!

Al Terhune · Post by **Al Terhune** » 27 Oct 2006 9:10 pm

Robert Thomas -- hey, way to go; now that's making use of your PSG.

Big John: Listen, don't overestimate me -- I ain't NEVER made money playing any kind of steel guitar! Well, the occasional $50 split between five fellas. So, you're light years ahead of me, brother.

Al

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 28 Oct 2006 1:53 am

Of course you have go back to the beginning before there were pedals and use a lot of slants, etc,

Not quite true :-
There are MANY tunings you can use on non pedal guitar that eliminate the need for the majority of slants.

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Robert Thomas · Post by **Robert Thomas** » 28 Oct 2006 6:50 am

Basil, I agree with you, but if you are only going to use the E-9th and the C-6th on the PSG without changing some things then the slant becomes very usable in some instances, more so on the E-9th then the C-6th. The C-6th can naturally be played witout a lot of slants.

Darryl Hattenhauer · Post by **Darryl Hattenhauer** » 28 Oct 2006 8:25 am

Thanks, Robert. You just saved me a pile of $.

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"I take my wife everywhere, but she keeps finding her way back." --Henny Youngman

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 28 Oct 2006 8:33 am

Darryl; That's what I was trying to do for a lot of people! One of my a.k.a.'s is ‘Pay through the nose John’!

------------------
“Big John”
a.k.a. {Keoni Nui}
Current Equipment

Nick Reed · Post by **Nick Reed** » 28 Oct 2006 11:05 am

John,
I enjoy playing with both styles. The E9th pedal for hard-core KUNTRY! Then the C6th non pedal for Western Swang, and of course "Sleepwalk".

[This message was edited by Nick Reed on 28 October 2006 at 12:11 PM.]

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 28 Oct 2006 12:49 pm

There's no crime in owning more than one instrument.

But Robert is right. A C6 neck played without the pedals is the same as a C6 non-pedal neck. Just keep your feet off the pedals.

That brings up another topic. The "standard" copedants in E9 make sense, but I find that when using the C6 neck the pedals don't make the changes I would like. What copedants do most people use on the C6 neck ?

Darryl Hattenhauer · Post by **Darryl Hattenhauer** » 28 Oct 2006 1:15 pm

But I'd have to commit a crime to afford it.

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"I take my wife everywhere, but she keeps finding her way back." --Henny Youngman

Lane Vifinkle · Post by **Lane Vifinkle** » 29 Oct 2006 4:24 am

after playing 6string (1/4 string spacing) all
my life, I switched to Fender pedal 8string (3/8 string
spacing) It nearly drove me nuts. After more than a year, me fingers are almost used to the
3/8 spacing, but every once in a while my fingers remember the 1/4 spacing and grab the wrong string. So playing both instruments is
out of the question. Why cant all steel guitars
have 1/4 spacing the way the Lord intended it.
(I know, just get longer bars).
Am I the only one that feels this way?
Would you ask a pianist to play on a piano
with narrow keys?