The Student

Ernie Pollock · Post by **Ernie Pollock** » 3 Oct 2006 4:23 am

I remember when I started, 30 couple years ago, I worked in a factory from 11pm till 7am, would come home & practice for 3 or 4 hrs, go to bed, get up eat spagetti, practice till time to leave for work, I was a 'fanatic lunatic' for steel, but it worked for me, I play fairly well for a non professional player & it was all because of practice practice practice.
I will admit, when I first went out to play in a band I was awful, but I just never gave up & neither should any of you!!

Ernie Pollock

http://www.hereintown.net/~shobud75/stock.htm

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James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 3 Oct 2006 4:50 am

Tony Prior, I agree. To me, it's like building a house. Lay down the proper foundation, and lay down a brick. Level it properly, cement it, before you lay down the next brick. Eventually, you end up with a house you can move into. Don't start at 7 A.M. and expect to move in at 5 P.M.. Also don't try to put on the roof if you don't have the walls done. A good teacher should be your foreman/crew leader. Jeff Newman / Joe Wright have the blueprints.

James Sission · Post by **James Sission** » 3 Oct 2006 5:27 am

Elizabeth, I am a beginner to steel guitar. I think I understand your stance. What I would tell you as a beginner myself is, coming from 6 string, learning a basic I, IV, V or I, vi, IV, V progression on the steel was very simple. In fact, I found it easier to make the chords on steel that six string. I met a forum member, Finis Spier, at his home one day. He is a fiddler and took up steel some time back. He mentioned to me that steel was the easiest instruments he ever learned to play. That is just an example of approach and how one sets his mind when he takes on a task. I have always believed that the body can achieve what the mind can conceive. One thing about being a beginner these days is that one can get totally overwhelmed with all the "beginner" lessons available. Some are better than others, but it’s almost to the point of there being so much, it’s hard to make a choice as to where to begin. Personally, I think a great deal has to do with the student’s ability and desire to learn the guitar and not just learn to play tablature. I see statements on here all the time about Winnie Winston's book and how the student as no desire to learn such things as Red River Valley. I find that pretty amazing when you look at the totality of what he is teaching. The page just before that song contains several variations of a major scale. If the student learns these, as he states at the top of the page, and then moves to Red River Valley, he’s not learning JUST a song unless he, as a student, missed the whole point of the lesson. What he is doing on those two pages is showing the student several things; to wit: Basic scale construction and intervals, phrasing of scales to form melodies and a good foundation in which to build your own melodies and play many other songs. I had a conversation with Herb Steiner about those two pages in Winnie’s book and shared my observation with him about it. I was surprised when he told me that he thought page 28 was probably what most of country music was built on. For many students, I feel like they approach this process with blinders on and miss the main point of that lesson. Basically, I think many students fail to learn the basics before trying to move on and play songs. When I looked at Winnie’s book, it took me about 3 weeks to learn to play all those scales on page 28 in every major key on the fret board. I never moved on to Red River Valley until I learned those scales in all keys and learned where the root note of each position was located. Did I get more from the lesson than others? I don’t know for sure, but I would suspect many people moved from page 28 to page 29 on the same day. Then, I moved on to Red River Valley where I loaded the CD into Audacity and made the backing track in every key and played along to it in every key. I don’t think many students take the time to fully understand a lesson like they should because they are so excited about playing a song instead of learning basics. Of course I understand that people learn at different paces and people learn better using one method than they do another, but learning the foundation of the instrument is an important and often over looked factor by the beginner who wants to rush into playing beyond his own abilities to fast. I never played my first song on the steel until I leaned all the chords that John Fabian demonstrates on the Carter Guitar website (demystifying the E9th tuning) and then all the scales on page 28 of Winnies book. Having done that, I really don’t have a difficult time playing along with my band at all. I have been playing about 1 year now. I am fully aware that I have a lot to learn and I am by no means a knocked out solo player on the steel guitar. My point is basically that a beginner can get back from a lesson what he puts into it. Thanks for sharing your web site with us…..James[This message was edited by James Sission on 03 October 2006 at 06:28 AM.]

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 3 Oct 2006 9:51 am

James, i totally agree. Winnies Winstons book was the best thing i got my hands on,
i have been at it for over 3 years and it was only after getting winnies book that i started making any real progress, like you said a student might not care for " red river Valley" but what it teaches is invaluble .

my point is: (I) just don't see how anyone could say learning the seel is not hard

i am at a point where it is getting a lot easier but i remember when it was very hard to understand

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Mullen SD-10 3&5 / nashville 400

Elizabeth West · Post by **Elizabeth West** » 3 Oct 2006 7:31 pm

I do not believe this to be the most feared instrument.I believe it to be the most untapped marketed instrument every.I never say it was easy.I said it was not difficuit to learn and understand.There are techniques to be learned and, I stand by the statement of cord learning. The pedal steel is a pattern instrument. Once you have the patterns memerized in one key, Only the starting position changes. If one knows where to find 1,4,5, open positions .Then 1,4,5, with A&B pedals then with A&F pedals....you use these same pattern for your walks ups, passing cords and many of the runs we hear on the records we listen to. But if you don't know this of course the instrument is intimidating for the beginner.

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 4 Oct 2006 6:06 am

When I started, that's what I picked up immediatly. I had song structure down pretty well because of playing bass. The next step for me is becoming skilled on right hand technique and harmonised scales. That's kept me at the grindstone ever since.
But I'm just a beginner. I think we are all beginners, just some of ya'll just have bigger "head starts". I think I will always be a student.

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 4 Oct 2006 6:08 am

Elizabeth, Do you play mostly E9th neck or do you play C6th, too?

Mark van Allen · Post by **Mark van Allen** » 4 Oct 2006 9:16 am

I bought my first Mullen,(cheap!), from a Dentist and PHD who had struggled valiantly for a long while and just couldn't "get it".

On that same guitar I gave lessons to some actually toothless "rednecks" who eventually played very well, and professionally.

My point: there's no socio-economic or perceptive intelligence factor to learning steel, or any other instrument, but rather a combination of dedication, commitment, aptitude, and time put in.
An often-overlooked factor is the simple truth that we all don't learn or process information in the same way and so along with the struggle of a new task, we need to carefully pay attention to how we ourselves learn.
For some, written or tabbed materials do the job, for others, it's slowly copying by ear from records, the visual input from video, for others, one-on-one with an experienced player is the only way.

Knowledge of music theory, at least to the degree of how basic songs work, is a real cornerstone to understanding, but for some people it's too much like math. Some folks have mentioned how put off they are by teaching material that seems outdated, or not tailor-made to their musical preference.

Learning how we oursevles learn is a tricky enterprise, but do-able. Once you figure out what approach makes things click for you, progress really speeds up.
With more learning materials available than ever, a good "personal trainer" is still essential for some.

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Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com

Dan Haas · Post by **Dan Haas** » 4 Oct 2006 9:20 am

What a great thread!!!
It got me thinking and taking a look at the way I practice.
I think as a student there is so much info it gets a little over whelming. Thats why its important to have an instructor.
James Sission your reply was very good.
I am now working on page 28 diligently and not in passing. In all keys.
Audacity is a very good program and its free.

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MSA SideKick / Carter Starter

A. J. Schobert · Post by **A. J. Schobert** » 4 Oct 2006 9:33 am

Elizabeth what new players need is a teacher to show them, I am a hands on guy as well as alot of us, I can play a tape ora dvd over and over but not until I was showed how to block, etc I really didn't pick it up, On the other hand it is very hard to find a teacher (not to many peaple playPSG)What a teacher can show vers. material is far more

Mark Treepaz · Post by **Mark Treepaz** » 4 Oct 2006 11:13 am

As a new player on PSG, I can personally attest to the value of having a personal instructor to guide me through the learning process. A great local player from my area has taken me under his wing and is showing me the ropes of this contraption…er,...instrument. Not only how to play it, but also the historical background and mechanical aspects of pedal steel.

I’ve owned my PSG for almost a month and have had two private instruction sessions so far. I’ve learned more in the two private instruction sessions than I had in the almost three years of learning and playing lap steel on my own. (Now, we’ve got to break all the bad habits that I’d developed on my own!

)

Being an experienced musician with decent knowledge of music theory is helping me to expedite my learning of PSG. However, all the theory in the world doesn’t help the development of muscle memory and the other physical requirements of this instrument. That’s only developed through practice, practice, and practice!

There are a lot of great learning materials out there. Although live personal instruction is by the far the best method of instruction, I do however believe that it is also possible to become a good player through the study of self-instructional materials. This is provided that the self-learner has the discipline not to rush through the material and use it correctly.

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Sho-Bud LDG, Gretsch Syncromatic Lap Steel, Bach Stradivarious 37 Trumpet, Getzen Flugelhorn, Fender Precision Bass (pre-CBS)

[This message was edited by Mark Trzepacz on 04 October 2006 at 12:14 PM.]

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 4 Oct 2006 11:37 am

Some of the world's greatest hitters in baseball have been studied and they actually see the ball with much greater clarity and speed of reaction time that your average Joe.

So it stands to reason that some people are going to find pedal steel easier than others-and some people are just never really going to 'get it'.

One thing for true: intelligent hard work DOES pay off (but that don't make it easy either!)

Mike Wheeler · Post by **Mike Wheeler** » 4 Oct 2006 11:39 am

This is truly a great thread...so much insight and direction is comming out!!

I started back in '71 and had no instruction at all. Sonny Curtis had a store around here, but I couldn't afford to pay attention, let alone pay for lessons. So, I just dove in and after a week or so started using it in my garage band. (remember those days? ha,ha!) I sucked, but I was having the time of my life.

I had played 6 string electric since '63, so I guess I had a good musical/theory start. Still, there were no books or CDs to learn from.

My point is that we all need to count our lucky stars that so much info is available FOR FREE here, and elsewhere on the internet. (not to mention the miriad of courses, seminars, shows, etc.) It boggles the mind!!

One word of caution though....there is a thing called "information overload". While, in my early days, I was starved for info, today, I am overwhelmed!! I find it awful easy to run into a "hard to learn" passage and foolishly jump to another, easier course and continue practising...or read about some new (to me) phrase and slide into studing it...it's called distraction (and laziness)! I have to constantly recommit myself to pushing thru the tough spots in a course of stury. But the reward for doing so is immense!! What a feeling of elation!

My Dad used to tell me to develop "stick-to-it-ivness"...I'm STILL trying!!

Mark Treepaz · Post by **Mark Treepaz** » 4 Oct 2006 11:48 am

Mike Wheeler wrote:

One word of caution though....there is a thing called "information overload". While, in my early days, I was starved for info, today, I am overwhelmed!! I find it awful easy to run into a "hard to learn" passage and foolishly jump to another, easier course and continue practising...or read about some new (to me) phrase and slide into studing it...it's called distraction (and laziness)! I have to constantly recommit myself to pushing thru the tough spots in a course of stury. But the reward for doing so is immense!! What a feeling of elation!

Mike, this is an excellent point! Something that all new players should remain very aware of. Self discipline in this area is very important and will make a significant difference between constructive, progressive learning as opposed to aimless "noodling around" on the fretboard.

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Sho-Bud LDG, Gretsch Syncromatic Lap Steel, Bach Stradivarious 37 Trumpet, Getzen Flugelhorn, Fender Precision Bass (pre-CBS)

[This message was edited by Mark Trzepacz on 04 October 2006 at 12:48 PM.]

Mike Winter · Post by **Mike Winter** » 4 Oct 2006 3:20 pm

I agree with Elizabeth, Tony and others. I think a rudimentary understanding comes fairly easy, especially if you have working/playing knowledge of another instrument, and understand chord structure and can hear chord changes. I think the bulk of the rest of it is in learning all the various inversions. But, there is no doubt that proficiency on the instrument takes most people a great while. Technique is so critical, right hand, blocking, learning to use the volume pedal properly.

I figure most of the "great" players probably are gifted to some degree more than the rest of us, but they paid their dues over the years by playing, that's for sure. It certainly is a time/labor intensive instrument.

One last thing. I also think that the intimidation factor is something to be reckoned with. It could be that some people actually talk themselves OUT of learning it, because it is a complicated piece of gear. Just my two cents. Great post.

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Mike
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Blue Moon Highway
(Country Music...and then some.)
www.bluemoonhighway.com

ZB Custom S-10 (#0509)

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 4 Oct 2006 5:35 pm

Beginner here, and i love red river valley

especially the winnie version. I am ashamed to say i did not go into near the depth of study of it that james did.

I think in some respects, this instrument IS more difficult than most, no disrepsect to the fine and much more knowledgable than myself, people posting above me.
-This instrument takes alot more muscle memory than most.
-you are using every limb, digit, AND joints! simulatneously but unlike the drums there is complex theory involved.
-the volume pedal, aye carumba!
-there are SOOO many possible chord voicings for any given chord
-fingerpicks! aaargh!
-yes there is a wealth of instructional material, but where I live at least, there is no wealth of instructors or even live performances. you have to really seek out the steel unlike piano, guitar, drums which are all around you everyday, on tv, cell phone, radio, etc etc
-the instrument and the myriad of accesories necessary to play it are expensive, and where I live at least, rare.

let me rephrase and just say this instrument present more challenges to a beginner than most IMHO.
I aint complaining tho, its incredible fun to learn. every time I sit down i learn something not only about the instrument but about theory and music itself. fascinating instrument to say the least. unlimited potential..and as was said, underutilized.
I am gonna wail eventually.

John Coffman · Post by **John Coffman** » 4 Oct 2006 5:39 pm

Super thread. I agree with many of you as the way people approach learning. I am a beginner with no prior musical training. Mark Van Allen is right on the mark. It is the way we learn and how we apply it. PhD's to 8th grade education makes no difference if the want to is there. No amount of book training is going to replace the need for hands on training. I believe this is why it come easier to hands on people. Most people must practice to become good at most things. Artist, doctors, and other professions must put large amounts of time into learning their trade.
What I have learned in my two years is surround your self with the best players you can find. Watch them practice their craft. Read and practice all you can. Ask lots of questions and never ever quit. A wise man once told me it ain't over until I win. Commit yourself to being the best

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Thomas SD10 3/4,Thomas D10 8/5 and Desert Rose S10 3/4. Beginner Just Steelin on the Brazos river.

[This message was edited by John Coffman on 04 October 2006 at 06:48 PM.]

A. J. Schobert · Post by **A. J. Schobert** » 4 Oct 2006 6:14 pm

I also agree with john fabian the basics can be picked up easy,It really takes practice

Elizabeth West · Post by **Elizabeth West** » 4 Oct 2006 9:24 pm

Yes James, I do play a little C6th but, I prefer the E9th. A.J. yes, working hands on would be the way to go for the beginner however, one could get an instructor that could hold them back and you would'nt even know it.That what happens, you walk away of the instrumemt thinking your the one who's gone and faled.Then there's the cost of lessons,not everyone can afford that either and last of all, there are not enough teachers for this instrument.Therefore is there not a great need for a step by step learn it yourself course for the very beginner just like every other instrument and I mean one that starts with the very basics. Judging by the e-mails I've got in the last two days I believe there is. Guys I'll get to your e-mails very so[This message was edited by Elizabeth West on 04 October 2006 at 10:26 PM.]