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Topic: Playing Dobro In The Dreaded Key of F |
Mark Eaton
From:
Sonoma County in The Great State Of Northern California
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Posted 19 Dec 2005 11:47 am |
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I also posted this one over at JerryD's board and on Reso-Nation. I wanted to post it here because many steel guys are very sharp on their theory stuff:
I just received my weekly e-mail from our church band director, and on Christmas Eve she wants a lot of dobro, which of course is music to my ears-but what may not be music to the congregation's ears is my fumbling around on songs in the key of F. I don't have the option like Jerry Douglas to have one guitar tuned to F-as I believe he does when AKUS plays "Man of Constant Sorrow," and I don't want the pressure of attempting re-tuning from G to F with a short time span between songs. I remember from Ivan Rosenberg's workshop last year that he mentioned that F is his least favorite key to play in.
Also bear in mind that I spend almost no time practicing F scales-which I should be doing, and will review this afternoon-but no miracles are likely to occur between now and the Thursday evening rehearsal.If all else fails I can hang around the 10th fret, but I'd rather not limit it to that.
Does anyone have any hints how to get around in F given our G tuning? Is there any cheating I can do with a capo (I'm music theory challenged, especially on the more obscure stuff).
I'm playing on several of the songs, and the two in F are "Hark The Herald Angels Sing" and "O Come All Ye Faithful." She decided that those songs in G would be too high for many to sing and that F would be better.
Dobro player's dilemma!
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Mark
[This message was edited by Mark Eaton on 19 December 2005 at 11:48 AM.] [This message was edited by Mark Eaton on 19 December 2005 at 11:53 AM.] |
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Jon Moen
From:
Canada
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Posted 19 Dec 2005 12:08 pm
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Maybe tune to F and use a dobro capo for the G songs?
Jon |
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Bill McCloskey
From:
Nanuet, NY
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Posted 19 Dec 2005 12:11 pm
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| You can capo up 3 frets. That way any of your D licks will work and your 4 chord will be open and your 5 chord will be on the second fret. |
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George Rout
From:
St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 19 Dec 2005 12:24 pm
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Hi Mark. I understand completely where you're coming from. I played (and still do)my lap steel for about 35 years in A Major. When I bought my first resonator, it was such a brain tease to play it in G, that I tuned it to A for a couple of years. Finally, I said to myself 'I won't master this thing if I don't just play it in G', and that was in the early 80's. Even at this time, once in a while, we're in the middle of some song at a concert and I get this panic attack 'What key are we playing in here...where am I'!!! I think the problem comes from, i.e. playing the steel in F in A Major is on the 8th fret and when I'm playing Dobro, it's on the 10th fret, but it is still F and my sound instinct drilled into my head all the years of playing in A Major as I do still with the steel, it's like a physical thing that I should be on the 8th fret.
What I've done on all our Dobro songs with the Peach Pickers, is write just a bar of the Dobro Start Notes in tab right at the top of the page, therefore, I see the fret numbers if I get in a panic of losing it. I know I should be using the 10th fret base for F. That's helped me quite a few times.
The other problem you mentioned is Christmas music, well it's a problem for me. I just played Dobro with some folks who do gospel stuff (not the Peach Pickers)at a few old folks homes Christmas show, and they use a piano also. I found this almost impossible to play Christmas music with, because the pianist (being a good player) seemed to play every note as a chord!!!! Let me tell you, I wasn't in there much on some of the Christmas songs. But, they let me do a Dobro solo (with their back up) on Silent Night, and combined with finger chimes (in G), I alsmost got a standing ovulation from the old people.
We only get to play the Christmas music the few times each year, and I could never take the time to really learn it in any key, except for three or four of the uncomplicated tunes. Let us know how ya make out!!!
George http://thepeachpickers.com/
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Stephan Miller
From:
Silver Spring, Maryland, USA
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Posted 19 Dec 2005 12:24 pm
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Mark, I know more about capo-ing than dobro-ing...but you might try putting a capo at the third fret, for those 2 songs. This would give you the full IV chord (Bb) open, as well as open Fs on the 1st and 4th strings. You could then also use the same chord positions, hammer-ons and pulloffs as when playing in the key of D without a capo (if you can see past all the fret markers suddenly being in the wrong places).
--Steve |
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Larry Robbins
From:
Fort Edward, New York
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Andy Sandoval
From:
Bakersfield, California, USA
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Posted 19 Dec 2005 1:10 pm
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| I play dobro in open G and tuning down to F and usin a capo sounds like the way to go to me too. |
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AJ Azure
From:
Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 19 Dec 2005 1:40 pm
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consider instead just retuning your B strings to Bb for one song.
Then your patterns are generally the same not including those two strings but, it's re-thinking one string instead of mutiple positions. The other option is take all the patterns you currently know for G and change every B to Bb. The only other piece of the puzzle is either avoid your F sharps or change them to F naturals on the fly. |
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D Schubert
From:
Columbia, MO, USA
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Posted 19 Dec 2005 1:56 pm
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I would just forget about the capo or retuning, and just play the thing. Many Dobro players -- especially the old timers like Josh and Oswald -- never used a capo anyhow.
Your I chord is on the 10th fret, your IV chord is on the 3rd, and your V is on the 5th fret. It's no different than playing in E with no capo (frets 9, 2, and 4).
Just learn up a few more closed string licks and bar slants, if necessary. |
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Peter Jacobs
From:
Northern Virginia
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Posted 19 Dec 2005 3:26 pm
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My lap steel is tuned to Open G, so for F, I do as Bill suggested: capo up 3 and play in D. I enjoy playing out of the D position anyway.
Peter |
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George Keoki Lake
From:
Edmonton, AB., Canada
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Posted 19 Dec 2005 4:09 pm
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Why not use the E tuning ? I've used it for years. "F" is located on the first fret and so on. I have never had any problem playing with another instrument on Christmas music or whatever. I use the E13th on electric and generally a variation of the E on Dobro...(E6th or E7th). Anyway, MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ONE AND ALL .... no matter what tuning you use !  |
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HowardR
From:
N.Y.C.-Fire Island-Asheville
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Posted 19 Dec 2005 4:25 pm
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Bet you'd like a couple of pedals & levers now..... 
Yup, that's how it starts.....  |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 19 Dec 2005 4:32 pm
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Any chance of talking them into playing the tunes in G, instead of F?
At our church I finally got our music director to stop bringing in songs in the key of Eb. It was driving us acoustic guitarists crazy. I hate having to remember to put on and take off a capo, especially when there isn't much time between songs.
Lee, from South Texas |
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Aaron Schiff
From:
Cedaredge, CO, USA
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Posted 19 Dec 2005 7:37 pm
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| I like the "tune in F and capo to G solution" for the one dobro musician, however I have not used my capo since I bought it from Paul Beard. If I had only one instrument I would actually use the 10th fret I, 3rd or 15th fret IV, 5th or 17th fret V, etc solution. But I have two dobros and if I know I am going to use two tunings, I take both. |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Posted 19 Dec 2005 7:50 pm
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As previously suggested, capoing up three frets is nice if you know your "open" D scales well. You come up with nice new phrases... but why not bite the bullet and learn some open F stuff? One shortcut- open F is the same as open C mixolyidian- you can think "open C" all the way, just substituting the fretted 3rd fret on string 6 and 3 for the open 5th and 2nd string notes. Put that together with the pocket of every note on frets 3 and 5, (all in the F scale) and you have lots of ammunition without capoing...
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Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com
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Chris Walke
From:
St Charles, IL
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Posted 20 Dec 2005 9:52 am
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I also capo at 3 for playing in F.
If I have time to work on it, however, I like to try and play without a capo. It closes some doors and opens others. The capo is definitely a help, but it can also become a crutch. I guess that's true of standard guitar too. |
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Mark Eaton
From:
Sonoma County in The Great State Of Northern California
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Posted 20 Dec 2005 9:58 am
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I knew I could count on you guys for some great ideas! I have avoided using a capo for a long time-not necessarily on purpose-just never got around to acquiring one, until several months ago. So it should have been obvious to me that a capo on 3 would be the IV chord (B flat) and I could play out of that position. Duh!
Of course I also knew that I would be opening up a can of worms, and would get diverse answers. Truly the expression "there's more than one way to skin a cat" comes into play here. Howard: sounds like a Franklin PedaBro would be the REAL solution! Lee: I'm always begging the music director for songs in G-I think I need to get out of my comfort zone and live dangerously! She was being nice last Saturday when we were caroling in front of our church office, which is located in a shopping center, and handing out cookies and fudge. It was rainy and pretty darn cold here in Northern California, and my fingers weren't working very well on the dobro-so the music director transposed (playing the keyboard) a lot of the songs to G to help me out.
I guess if you're not a "capo-ey" kind of guy then you overlook the obvious.
My first inclination would be to play mostly closed postion stuff, no capo, and have it revolve around the 3rd, 8th, and 10th frets-since I'm not well versed in F scales up and down the neck. But we are doing "Joy To The World," a Mariah Carey uptempo version, and I don't know how well I will be able to keep up jumping around on those frets-if I can throw in some open stuff with the guitar capo'd I may have a better shot at keeping up.
As I wrote on Jerry's board, this is turning into a great dobro lesson without having a teacher present. How to approach a song that is a bit awkward for the typical G tuned dobro because it is in a key that an amateur player isn't very comfortable with. I'm trying all the ideas, including re-tuning to F and capoing for other songs.
Any other ideas-keep 'em coming, I'll let you know how it turns out after the service!
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Mark
[This message was edited by Mark Eaton on 20 December 2005 at 10:21 AM.] |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 20 Dec 2005 10:06 am
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| I play a hula in F. Not a problem. One helpful thing is when playing the F at the 10th fret, a scalar passing note is the first string open, ie: 4th string- 10th fret, 1st string open, 3rd string-9th fret, 3rd string-10th fret. [This message was edited by John Billings on 20 December 2005 at 10:09 AM.] |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 20 Dec 2005 10:37 am
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I agree it is tough to play a G tuning in F or E and lose all use of open strings. There's only so much you can do with all closed position playing. It gets boring quick, and the tone of the instrument is not so great up on the high frets.
For capoing, in addition to tuning down to F and capoing to G, or capoing at the 3rd fret and playing like D, there is capoing at the 5th fret and playing like C. That puts the open postion as the V chord, which works better for some songs than being open at the IV chord. |
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AJ Azure
From:
Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 20 Dec 2005 11:50 am
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| There is absolutely so much you can do in closed positions and never get bored. Don't let the cliche lines define what your instrument can do. Stay in G and learn the keys. Eb sounds awesome on reso. I palyed swing on G till I decided to go G6 but, that's only one string change. |
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Ray Riley
From:
Des Moines, Iowa, USA
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Posted 20 Dec 2005 8:25 pm
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| I'm with George Lake, Tune to E major and let'er Rip, You Guys gave me a headache, Have fun! Ray |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Posted 20 Dec 2005 11:07 pm
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I don't get the "lose all open strings" reference. Last I looked G and D were in the F scale.
B in the E scale, with G and D being perfectly acceptable "blue" notes for maany key of E tunes.
Am I missing something? |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 21 Dec 2005 10:58 am
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| Mark, exactly my point! I don't get it either! |
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Steinar Gregertsen
From:
Arendal, Norway, R.I.P.
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Posted 21 Dec 2005 11:04 am
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Me neither. While I haven't used the dobro-G tuning for a long time, I've never considered it especially awkward to play in the key of C on my open-D tuned Weissenborn... (I just find all keys equally awkward  )
Steinar
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www.gregertsen.com
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Bob Stone
From:
Gainesville, FL, USA
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Posted 21 Dec 2005 12:15 pm
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Hi,
There's nothing like an upcoming gig to get you to knuckle down and learn. Here's an excellent opportunity to learn how to get around in F. I can't see tuning down and using a capo. It's not like you need to throw in a lot of hot bluegrass rolls, hammer-ons and pull-offs for these two numbers.
I've had a lot of fun exploring E-flat and C minor in open G reso tuning. Playing in all keys is a great way to expand your skills. |
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