Country/Rock?????????

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 16 Aug 2006 3:24 pm

My apologies for highjacking the thread with my response to Ron. Hopefully we can just forget it and move on.

Tucker Jackson · Post by **Tucker Jackson** » 16 Aug 2006 5:53 pm

You guys mentioned Blue Rodeo...

I saw them play and loved the band. Went out and bought a CD -- I think it was a "Greatest Hits" deal -- anyway, the songs were just not very interesting. At all. Apparently, the band's best tunes, like the ones I heard at their show a few years ago, didn't qualify as "Greatest Hits."

So which Blue Rodeo CD would you recommend?

Mickey McGee · Post by **Mickey McGee** » 16 Aug 2006 5:56 pm

I don't know if anyone has read this?Take a look! http://hollywood2you.tv/_wsn/page5.html

Tucker Jackson · Post by **Tucker Jackson** » 16 Aug 2006 6:07 pm

Mickey, that's a very interesting list. Thanks for posting it.

But where's Neil Young?? "Harvest" was the #1 album for 1972. Very influential (although admittedly late in the "Country Rock" era).

The guy should at least get his name listed on that page somewhere...

EDITED:
Jim mentioned the book "Desperados." There's also a pretty good book on the history of Country Rock called:
"Are You Ready For The Country?: Elvis, Dylan, Parsons and the Roots of Country Rock" by Peter Doggett. The book came out in 2001 and it's pretty extensive.... over 500 pages.[This message was edited by Tucker Jackson on 16 August 2006 at 07:20 PM.]

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 16 Aug 2006 6:18 pm

Tucker - Blue Rodeo's "5 Days in July" is considered pretty strong - a litle "raw", quickly done, loosely put together, but emotionally strong..

If you like slick, precisely-produced modern country music you'll hate this record. The very first song takes a left turn in the middle and dumps you on your head.

If music is really art - this is music.

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 16 Aug 2006 6:37 pm

My favourite Blue Rodeo album is "Nowhere To Here". It's considered their "dope" record, and can get spacy at times. But it's just got that something.

Jim nailed it with "Five Days In July". That's about as close as they came to their "Rubber Soul". It's their most accessible.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 16 Aug 2006 7:17 pm

But where's Neil Young??

Ya' know, I just looked at the Chris Darrow interview, and said the same thing to myself - he didn't mention Neil even once, an unforgivable oversight in any summary of the 60s and 70s "California Sound". Of course, Neil is just Neil, same as Dylan is just Dylan - the labels don't cut any mustard at all, they are very much above all that. But to my mind, in some ways, he typifies what is truly "country rock" better than anybody. To my eyes and ears, the country part is the most "flannel" of any of them - in Darrow's words - and none of them rock as hard as Neil, IMO.

Even though Darrow purports to write about the "California Sound", he proceeds to say that people like Jesse Colin Young aren't really part of it - e.g., Jesse was an east coaster who relocated to the Bay area. Sort of tells a lot, IMO. Fleetwood Mac? Where the h&## did they come from? They were an English blues band that came into LA during the "polyester" period. It's about fame and money - so LA.

I think it's great to talk about this, and I've done my share. But in the end, none of these labels cut any ice, IMO. To me, what matters is to arrive at an understanding of what's good, and maybe not so good, about this general type of music - at least from the standpoint of steel guitar players, which is, after all, the forum we're in. The point, to me, is that if ones main interest is steel guitar, this music may not be revolutionary, but is an important part of the gradual evolution of the instrument. In this case, it was a return to some roots and passing the torch to a new generation which was, quite frankly, pretty disenfranchised at the time with what was going on with mainstream countrypolitan. It was cultural and it was musical. IMO.

BTW, I also like Blue Rodeo - they do a very good cover of Rodney Crowell's "Till I Gain Control Again". They are probably about as close as anybody current to the old country-rock sound, IMO. Did I mention earlier that this sound owes a lot to Canadian artists - Neil Young, Ian Tyson, the Band, and others. You know, another thing here that is different between country-rock and stone-cold country - a lot of people from very northern regions, both US and Canada, lent a very different vibe to the music.[This message was edited by Dave Mudgett on 16 August 2006 at 08:18 PM.]

Chris House · Post by **Chris House** » 16 Aug 2006 7:32 pm

Quote "In this case, it was a return to some roots and passing the torch to a new generation which was, quite frankly, pretty disenfranchised at the time with what was going on with mainstream countrypolitan. It was cultural and it was musical."

Nicely put Dave. Quite frankly, "disenfranchised" sums it up nicely. At least for me. YMMV.

Tucker Jackson · Post by **Tucker Jackson** » 16 Aug 2006 7:58 pm

Jim and Chris, thanks for the Blue Rodeo recommendations.

I'm not looking for "slick." Raw and emotionally strong is good, so I think you guys are probably steering me in the right direction.

I know Bob Egan has played some steel for them, and I like the work he did with Wilco. He wasn't on tour with Blue Rodeo when I saw them, but maybe next time...[This message was edited by Tucker Jackson on 16 August 2006 at 09:36 PM.]

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 16 Aug 2006 8:05 pm

I clicked on this page-saw a post from Mike Winter quoting a previous post-which alluded to "if it doesn't have steel-it ain't country" and knew Charles Davidson had been here, without even seeing his name.

Charles would have no qualms about telling Mother Maybelle to her face that she wasn't country because she didn't have a steel in the Carter Family!

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Mark

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 16 Aug 2006 9:27 pm

Country music seems to have some basic subdivisions.

Olde Timey / Walkin talking blues /Bluegrass
All being pretty much back porch home grown styles.
With a bias towards south-eastern mountain areas

Western Swing, "cowboy songs" and Honky Tonk
being
A dance oriented more western demographic,
from dance halls and the dust belt areas.
With a modification by it's passing through
Hollywoods imagineering.

Then there's Nashville's various takes on
The ballad, the dance tune, and interpersonal social themes.

And a watershed period of Rockabilly.
Flirted with by country legends like ;
Johnny, Mel, Waylon, Conway and others.
Before they turned back towards Nashville's take.

More recently much of this cominged to create "Country-Rock".
And also drawing on the southern rock, post-blues movement,
like the Allmans, Little Feat, and even Skynerd.

All of the above has in some ways been melded together,
to support songs, by a variety of artists,
essentially unwelcome, for a time,
within the tradtional country music sub-divisions above.

There were people with long hair,
or wide open minds, or "citified experiences",
but still loving real country music styles,
that because of some turn in their road,
made them unacceptable to the mainstream
country demographic of the time.

As made emblamatic by "Okie From Muskogie".
Which Merle said was never intended to harden the demographic lines,
but was just observational.

So being socially shut out of the prevailing country world,
they then sought out the next closest cousin,
the "Roots Rock" movement.

People who traced back where their rock music came from,
and why,
and then decided to do retro forms of rock, pulling from it's ancestral beginings.

Having a base of fans willing to listen, rather than judge and shut out,
they were free to create a new form.
Country-Rock.

So you got mixes of blues, olde timey, bluegrass, Merle, early Ray, Bob Wills
and also Nashville's styles, with lyric content for a younger generation,
who like country, but not their parents version.

What for the parents was heart felt and simple paens to
love, family and lifes struggles,
Such as ;
"He Stopped Loving Her Today",
"Mom and Dad's Waltz",
"The Bottle Let Me Down"
for the next generation came of as :
hokie, corny, old fashioned, maudlin, not cool, too darned slow, etc.

They had lived similar expirences,
but like many second generations,
they had a rebelious slant,
and different coralary expirences to draw from.
So they NEEDED different takes on the country they grew up with
and still liked in many ways.

Children of the rock era,
saw a different world than their parents,
and so their music addressed this differing environmental view.

et viola Country Rock.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 16 August 2006 at 10:55 PM.]

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 17 Aug 2006 2:59 am

An observation of an interesting melding of styles:

Bob Wills and His Texas Playboys were inducted into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame on March 15, 1999.

Would the resulting genre be "Western Swing/Rock"?

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 17 Aug 2006 3:56 am

We must give thanks where it's due.

Asleep At The Wheel, was considered
a rock band doing western swing,
when no-one much else was doing it.

So they contributed mightily to keeping
Bob Wills name known to another generation
of NON-Texas music fans.

As for the swing/rock appelation,
well if you listen to Bill Halley
Rock Around The Clock,
that sure swung for me.

Rockabilly was very swingy,
and stuff like Louis Jordan,
another rock precursor, swung real hard.

Modern Blues styles still have a lot of swing in them.

The best of the southern rock / blues bands were really rhythmn aces,
and always had a strong swing component to their grooves.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 17 August 2006 at 05:02 AM.]

Mike Winter · Post by **Mike Winter** » 17 Aug 2006 8:25 am

I still say that the one overwhelmingly obvious common connection for the CR bands from the late sixties was the counter-culture. It was hippies getting turned on to country music, especially what was coming out of Bakersfield.

Make a list of all the bands...look at their pictures...their album covers. Read their interviews. The thread is there. They were embraced by Rolling Stone, played on "underground" radio stations...and despised by the Nashville establishment. The beat can be debated all day, but when you look at WHO was playing that stuff, it was for the most part long-haired, counter-culture, anti-establishment, anti-war, hippie-type musicians.

It's true that the bands from Northern and Southern California didn't hang much with each other, but they were very similar musically and politically. Ditto with the most of the other CR bands across the country at the time.

This is a great thread...so's the other one on Chris Hillman. What a great Forum.

------------------
Mike
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Blue Moon Highway
(Country Music...and then some.)
www.bluemoonhighway.com

ZB Custom S-10 (#0509)

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 17 Aug 2006 8:41 am

No one has mentoned my favorites from that era....the Creedence Clearwater Revival

I don't know what they played, but it was accepted by the listening public....and their vocalist, Kenny Rogers, achieved a modicum of success.

EDIT: I was reminded by a subsequent post that Kenny Rogers was with the 5th Dimension, which indeed he was. As they say...memory is the second thing to go when you get old!

[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 26 August 2006 at 03:58 AM.]

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 17 Aug 2006 9:02 am

Seems to me CCR's early hits were more R&B influenced. But some of their songs, like "Who'll Stop the Rain" (right title?), definitely had a folkie country-rock sound. And they were a West coast group. I consider them more a pop-rock-blues group, and don't consider them one of the core country-rock groups. But there definitely was overlap. So call them what you want.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 17 Aug 2006 11:23 am

The Nitty Gritty Dirt Band formed around '64-'65, amid the west-coast country-rock thing (though they didn't record until a couple years later). I don't think anyone's mentioned them yet.

So...Country rock? Folk rock? "New grass"?

Where do they fit in?

Maybe they're the first "Alt-Country" group!

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 17 Aug 2006 11:49 am

Gene,
John Fogerty, I believe, was CCR singer guitarist.

Kenny Rogers was in the First Edition, and New Christy Minstrals.

Nitty Gritty Dirt Band started as a olde timey jugband.
They just kept expanding membership
and stylistic vision.

Mike reiterated my position,
these were pickers that Nashville would run off if they could,
but yet they had a undeniable love of country music.
Even if through a different metaphorical prism.

I also note that they were more likely to welcome jamming with a classic country player,
than visa versa.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 17 August 2006 at 12:50 PM.][This message was edited by David L. Donald on 17 August 2006 at 09:23 PM.]

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 17 Aug 2006 12:03 pm

Kenny Rogers' rock band was The First Edition ("Just Dropped In to See What Condition My Condition Was In"), not CCR. CCR's lead vocalist and primary songwriter was John Fogarty, who also has had an interesting solo career.

Yeah, CCR had no steel, and was an amalgam of rockabilly and other 50s R&R, R&B, blues, country, and in general, roots American music. Their first LP is filled with things like Susie Q, I Put a Spell on You, and Ooby Dooby. The second has more of a blues, R&B feel. The third moves closer to country. Perhaps the first "Americana" band. Whatever anybody wants to label them, one of my favorite songs to play on steel is still "Lodi", and they were certainly part of the bigger picture, to me.

To me, the important thing was the fact that all of these bands borrowed a lot of styles and amalgamated them into an overall rootsy and unique American style. These type of bands - epitomized by CCR, the Band, the Eagles, FBB, Poco, this period of the Byrds, and many others - brought melody back into rock and roll, while the British and psychedelic folks were still jammin' high-decibel blues riffs.

Yeah, Nitty Gritty Dirt Band fit into this picture as well, I agree. Rand did mention them a page or so back. Of course, many people now view them as mainstream country, since they went - well, mainstream country.

Gene - I think it's ironic that Bob Wills and the Texas Playboys are in the R&R Hall of Fame while the Ventures are not. That whole HOF thing is very political - who knows their reasoning.

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 17 Aug 2006 1:19 pm

Remember that TV footage of CCR, where the set was a barn with a wagon wheel and haystacks? Obviously somebody made the country connection with them....at least the set designer of that TV show.

I always liked Fogarty's sense of fashion: a plaid flannel shirt and leather pants. If that's not a "country/rock" look, I don't know what is.

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 17 Aug 2006 1:25 pm

All of you are correct....of course Kenny Rogers was with the First Edition. Even so, CCR was still one of my favorites. They were recently on tour as "CCR Revisited", but I don't know how many of the originals were still active.

As has been said....no musician can remember correctly the events of the 1950-60's...and musicians of that vintage today have a problem remembering how to tie their shoes!

However, I do remember that our most requested song of that era was "What'd I Say"!

....and of course "Asleep at the Wheel" is the primary group associated with the Western Swing/Rock genre...are there others? [This message was edited by Gene Jones on 17 August 2006 at 02:32 PM.]

Jim Peters · Post by **Jim Peters** » 17 Aug 2006 1:30 pm

No way would I call CCR country rock. Southern or swampy(think tremelo), cool in their own way, but not in the same category as Poco, NRPS, FBB,et al. JP

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 17 Aug 2006 3:35 pm

"but I don't know how many of the originals were still active."

It wouldn't matter as long as John Fogerty was playing/singing. He literally wrote EVERY part and played almost all the studio parts (even drums). The band only played live. One of the earliest totally-overdubbed band recordings...in those days a lot were recording live and then dubbing just the vocals.

Little known but interesting CCR trivia...

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 17 Aug 2006 4:23 pm

Thank god someone finally spelled Fogerty correctly...

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Mark

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 17 Aug 2006 5:39 pm

I was just going along with everyone else.