Country/Rock?????????

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 10 Aug 2006 2:17 pm

" I agree with Smiley ! Its the use of words
that don't mix ! Rock is Rock country is
Country ."

And that's just totally counter to the point most of us have been trying to make - IT'S NOT.

It seems the hard-core country crowd (not all - there are some VERY country guys who are open minded...they may not LIKE rock or jazz or ska or whatever, but they respect that it's "music")are the only ones who have a need to pigeonhole styles of music or make "rules" as to what instrument can...or can't...be played in a certain style.

Not only has it never been as rigid as you think, but most "professional" (and I mean the top stage and studio guys) would likely disagree with you strongly.

Pedal steel is a musical tool. It can be used in a country band...or a punk band. Or by itself. It's "music" is onl;y in the mind of the player...there is no music in the instrument. It doesn't play itself.

And country is a very generalized "musical style". It does not require use of ANY particular instrument.

There is another great book called "Zen Guitar". It teaches no style, no licks, no scles, no chords. It teaches you to use your mind, connect with the instrument and create music. If you pay attention and relax a bit, it also teaches you to get over all that other stuff, because the "labels" just create musical barriers.

There are a lot of people here that I think are reading this thinking "oh, sheesh - now a bunch of hippie garbage"....who would really like the book if they just spent 10 quiet minutes reading the intro.

Sadly, those are also the people who never will.

My view of Zen and music - play one note. Just one. And have it be the *perfect* note. Attack, timing, tone, pitch, volume, every possible variable.

Just one.

Then you're a THE musician.

There are none. It's unattainable.

And back to the subject - that one note - that one PERFECT note - how would you classify it stylistically?

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 10 Aug 2006 2:20 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>My view of Zen and music - play one note. Just one. And have it be the *perfect* note. Attack, timing, tone, pitch, volume, every possible variable.

Just one.

Then you're a THE musician.

There are none. It's unattainable.

And back to the subject - that one note - that one PERFECT note - how would you classify it stylistically?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

B.B. King?

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 10 Aug 2006 3:41 pm

As far as I'm concerned there are only 2 kinds of music. Stuff I like, and stuff I don't like.

That's the only 2 catagories that count.

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Warning: I have a telecaster and I'm not afraid to use it.
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My web site

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 10 Aug 2006 3:59 pm

Jim -

Yes. I should have mentioned that there was actually *one* who has attained that.

Mike - I agree, sorta - except that I really think there's just ONE type of music, and whether or not *I* like it is entirely irrelevant unless *I* made it.

Music just IS.

Joe Goldmark · Post by **Joe Goldmark** » 10 Aug 2006 8:09 pm

Guys, I think it totally depends on what side of the fence you were on when you came to country music. Many of us grew up with rock, discovered the steel, and then fell in love with classic country (especially when it featured great steel playing). For those of us of a certain age (in our late 40's and 50's) country-rock music was the introduction and the bridge to country music. However, for guys like Smiley (and Smiley, I'm just guessing here), who grew up with country music, country rock was a poor imitation with a lot of sub-par vocals to boot (think Garcia, Dylan, etc.). They didn't need Gram or McGuin doing "You're Still On My Mind," when George Jones had already done the definitive version. Personally, I enjoy both a lot, as do many on this forum, but I can certainly see why some see country-rock as the perfect mix of styles, while others see it as no big deal.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 10 Aug 2006 8:15 pm

IMO, there are lots of musicians who have attained greatness with one note. B.B., of course, but that goes for many of the blues greats. Albert King, Muddy Waters, Earl Hooker, Robert Nighthawk, and many others say "a lot more with a lot less notes". That's what makes 'em great. Country music is another style that lends itself to minimalism. To me, pedal steel is the ideal instrument to make that approach and is the essence of why I love it so much - because it has the finest one-note tone of any instrument I've ever heard. Practically any of the masters' examples of pedal steel playing on slow ballads are perfect examples of less-is-more - you know who I'm talking about - John Hughey, Buddy Emmons, Hal Rugg, or any of many others. I also heard Miles Davis just hit one right note many times. Wes Montgomery's simple octaves are totally sublime. And let's not forget Neil Young's great one note solo on Cinnamon Girl. Who cares what style we're talking about? Great music is just great music, period.

With no disrespect intended to anybody who wants to be a one-style purist - I think one is missing out on a lot of ways to improve their own style if they stay shackled to one particular genre and refuse to hear anything else and be influenced by it. Every style of modern-age popular music on the planet has evolved by mixing influences of different musical approaches, and that includes "that style popularly known as country". There is no "pure" style, IMO.

IMO, the reason to strongly delineate stylistic differences is often much more about social mores than music. For lots of people, music is a visible sign of their place in the world - a badge to others that they are "birds of a feather". I guess it's instinctive. Of course, all IMO.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 10 Aug 2006 8:26 pm

Joe, the only hole I see is:

"Guys, I think it totally depends on what side of the fence you were on when you came to country music."

That assumes that somehow everone "came to country music".

I don't think I did or ever will. I might play the "country rock" as found in the Byrds, Burritos, etc catalogs...but you can't assume doing that is now or ever will be a bridge to anything more "country". I find myself, for example, playing "You Ain't Goin' Nowhere" followed by "Crossroads", so if I was on the rock side of the fence, all I'm doing is leaning against it - because the "coming to country music" isn't something I plan or desire. Sure, some of the songs I have played are "country-rock"...but I'm not going to delve into the country catalog when I have a rock catlog I'm familiar with and that I would rather learn how to play on the instrument. I don't want to learn the instrument AND have to become familiar with an entirely new set of material. I'd rather play what I know and like, but on a new instrument.

It got kind of off-topic, but the point is - a lot of folks didn't "come to country mucic" at all. They got to country-rock and stayed there. Which is fine.

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 11 Aug 2006 2:51 am

Let me put this in a nutshell... Country Rock was played by younger more open minded musicians back in the day.. It was certainly outside the C&W establishment and was frowned upon by them... It was much closer to country then it was to rock, but embodied elements of both... actually much of it was more akin to traditional country music than was mainstream country music of the era...lets say 1968-1975....

Listen to "Honky Tonk Downstairs" by Poco
" Harmony Song" by PPL
"Sweet Lovin One" by NRPS
"Sin City by FBB

This WAS country music by ANYONES standards... It may have been played by long haired dope smokers.. so what???

During the same era, "real" country music was played by short haired dope smokers, pill poppers, drinkers etc...

I just don't understand this debate I guess... bob

Mike Winter · Post by **Mike Winter** » 11 Aug 2006 4:58 am

Bob nailed it...

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Mike
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Blue Moon Highway
(Country Music...and then some.)
www.bluemoonhighway.com

ZB Custom S-10 (#0509)

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 11 Aug 2006 6:03 am

I've often wondered why Sneaky Pete Kleinow wasn't used on the "Sweetheart of the Rodeo" sessions. JayDee was an obvious choice but although Lloyd Green did a great job I think it would've been a little more memorable with Pete on it. He had a certain something that only he seems to put in recordings. Whether it's his beautiful simplicity or the tone of that old Fender cable steel, I don't know. Does anyone know if he was booked or was he even asked to do that session? JH in Va.

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Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!!

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 11 Aug 2006 6:08 am

Well done, Bob - you almost rendered this whole thread redundant!!!

Perfectly expressed.....

Roger R.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 11 Aug 2006 6:34 am

Just to be clear, this is all mistaken semantics. The original post and the first several crankers were clearly talking about modern commercial rock-influenced country music, which they mistakenly called country/rock. Others mistook them to be talking about '60s and '70s country-rock, and the thread sort of got hijacked in a defense of such country-rock. The latter is a much more interesting subject than modern rock-country, so maybe it's all okay. But the beginning of the thread and the rest of it are arguing about different things.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 11 Aug 2006 7:35 am

David, it's not at all clear to me that the original poster had any particular group or period of musicians in mind.

I'm a 66 year old COUNTRY picker and when i see someone referring to country/rock i don't quite know what the h%%% they are talking about. Country/Rock is an oxymoron. It is either country or rock.

Nor do I see any specificity in later posts.

Far from hijacking the thread, posters have generally been fairly restrained and tried to explain why they agree or disagree with the very general comments made.

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 11 Aug 2006 8:08 am

*[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 11 August 2006 at 09:42 AM.]

Fred Shannon · Post by **Fred Shannon** » 11 Aug 2006 8:13 am

Phred[This message was edited by Fred Shannon on 12 August 2006 at 04:23 AM.]

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 11 Aug 2006 8:50 am

Yes you nailed it Bob, except for one glaring oversight... you wrote '"real" country music'.... you have to write it as "REAL country music".... they alway capitalize it... "REAL country music, REAL country music, REAL country music, blah blah blah...etc." I guess the point of being REAL isn't in your face enough unless it's capitalized.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 11 Aug 2006 11:10 am

These guys will have to answer for themselves, but Thurlon’s original post sounded like he was objecting to country and rock being used together today, not back in the ‘60s and ’70s. Ernie P. also sounds like he is talking about something going on currently:

Probably call it that so the rockers won't have to keep explaining why that have a steel guitar or fiddle in there group?

Bob Hickish definitely sounds like he is talking about the garb of current commercial country stars: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I was wondering why they call it - Country !
I guess if you put on a western cut hat and
some raged cloths it becomes Country rock .
It Looks more like Country Hobo !<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Likewise Randy R.:

if there is a humbucker on stage and no PSG then it aint country.

Likewise Smiley:

Country + Rock = a "Crock"!!

I can’t believe these guys are getting so heated up about something that hasn’t been around for 30 years. But it sounds exactly like the same-ole-same-ole complaints from old-timers that crop up almost daily concerning the rock-country that is at the commercial forefront these days on radio and CMT. But, like I said, it is much more interesting to discuss the country-rock from its heydays in the ‘60s and ‘70s. But I don’t think anyone here is using that discussion to defend the commercial stuff of today.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 11 Aug 2006 11:54 am

To answer Jerry's "Sweetheart" question -

Gram wanted to use "real" (or "REAL"??) country musicians, hence Lloyd, Roy Husky etc. Nashville guys. There were some LA studio guys in the Hollywood part of the sessions, but his vision was to meld the existing Byrds with established country, stir up the pot, and see what happened. Sneaky wasn't part of the "traditional" establishment, and was doing western swing mostly - I don't recall him ever being mentioned as considered for the LA or Nashville sessions.

But his adventurous way with the guitar fit perfectly with the Burritos, which was a quite different band than the "Sweeheart" Byrds. "Sweetheart" was an attempt to do some real (REAL) country with real (REAL) musicians; the Burritos was more tongue-in-cheek, with country, rock, R&B...sort of a more country NRBQ in a way.

Sidebar - The Byrds actually were invited to appear on the Grqnd Ole Opry, which was a major coup at the time. Lloyd showed a lot of guts and class, and performed with them at a time when "Hippie musicians" wer really dissed by the country community (credit the Byrds for haircuts and suits for the show!).[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 11 August 2006 at 12:59 PM.]

Ron Sodos · Post by **Ron Sodos** » 11 Aug 2006 12:37 pm

These threads are stupid. Categories and names are only relevant in record stores so you can separate styles. To me there is good music and bad music. Poco and the Byrds and the some of that stuff from the 70's was great music. Call it whatever you want. If you want to call it country rock so be it. Most of the stuff on radio/tv today is mostly garbage. It all sounds like Bob Seeger and 70's pop. Pure crap. I came from the Grateful Dead era of the 60's and fell in love with steel when i heard Buddy Emmons play on the Blue Judy Collins Album with Steve Stills called "Who Knows Where the Time Goes." It pretty much changed my life. Now its Badonkadonk and syrupy stuff like that kid from Australia. Makes me sick to my stomach. Give me Poco anytime. For that matter Merle Haggard and George Jones would do as well........

[This message was edited by Ron Sodos on 11 August 2006 at 01:38 PM.]

Chris House · Post by **Chris House** » 11 Aug 2006 1:00 pm

No offense Ron, but this thread is turning into one of my favorite threads on the forum in so far as I am getting so much insight into a lot of bands that I really like and a nice little education. Putting aside the passionate "Country + Rock = Crock" responses and ignoring some of the closeminded comments, there is a wealth of information that's been passed around, I've learned about some "new" old stuff I'm going to check out, and it is interesting to look at the responses from a geographic perspective.

My band's style has many times been compared to the Eagles, Jackson Browne, etc. and I remember when we were getting ready to release our first record, we didn't know how to classify it for marketing. Wasn't quite "Country", wasn't quite "Rock". It was the marketing consultant that told us it was "Americana" and wouldn't ya just know it...There IS actually a radio airplay chart for that...Americana. Call it Americana, American Roots, Roots Rock, whatever. It's interesting to check out the Freeform Americana Chart...the range of artists there is pretty broad. BUT...however you want to label it, I agree, it's just a marketing tool. Otherwise, I'm also in the 'I either like it or I don't' camp. Doesn't matter what the market label, style or instrumentation is. JMHO

Ron Sodos · Post by **Ron Sodos** » 11 Aug 2006 1:30 pm

I'm happy you guys are educating yourselves. To me its a complete waste of time. I'll go and practice steel.......

Jim Eibner · Post by **Jim Eibner** » 11 Aug 2006 1:44 pm

Seems to me that Country Rock is any piece of music that a stone redneck 'country' snob thinks is crappy rock music AND that an elitist headbanger thinks is just sucky country.

Kind of like the music that brought me through my 'country hating' hippy days and got me hooked on PSG - to this day still playing in a Country Rock band.

This reply set in STEREO type

Jesse Pearson · Post by **Jesse Pearson** » 11 Aug 2006 2:42 pm

Gene Jones, would you please stop posting and editing everything you said completely out. I keep missing your posts in time to read em and it's driving me crazy!!! "what the heck did Gene post? ummm?"...!!!

Joe Goldmark · Post by **Joe Goldmark** » 11 Aug 2006 5:54 pm

Hi Jim Sliff,
To reply to your C&W issues...I'm surprised that you can play E9 pedal steel, and not develop a healthy respect, and then love for country music. I came in the same door as you (in 1970), but pretty soon discovered the "Hit Sounds Of Lloyd Green" album, and I was a believer. I had to hear more great steel which lead to digging through classic 60's and 70's country. I still love rock and soul music, but good country kills me (60's Ray Price, Merle, Buck Owens, George Jones, etc. etc.). It's an acquired taste, but so was beer....

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 11 Aug 2006 7:17 pm

"Hi Jim Sliff,
To reply to your C&W issues...I'm surprised that you can play E9 pedal steel..."

I don't. I play B6 8-string steel. I've tried E9 a couple of times, didn't like it at all. I am about to try again. Can't play one song on an E9 guitar.

"...and not develop a healthy respect, and then love for country music..."

See above. I do not know why it would be surprising, unless you have fallen into the "pigeonholing" of the instrument. RESPECT for good players of any instrument in any style I have, absolutely, and I have repeated that many times on other threads. I listen to lots of E9 steel when people post links. I hear some amazing stuff.

I just don't listen to what the "starters" of this thread call (I think) "REAL" country music. It's not my bag. You might not listen to Frank Zappa. But neither one has any relevance to steel guitar other than the fact it's used more often in country music. That doesn't bother me. So why should it bother you that I don't "love" country music? I do like some of Buck's stuff, but HE was a country-rocker IMO..one of the first. He sure as heck didn't fit in with the country world of the time, apparently. Seems from what I've read that "Nashville" didn't too much care for little "Bakersfield" - or anything that came out of it.

I wonder what the "crock" thinkers' opinions are of Buck as a "country-rock" artist? There are quite a few that consider him the granfather of the whole thing.

But as far as "REAL" country, I didn't acquire the taste. Don't drink beer, either. I prefer coffee. And some Zep.