Country/Rock?????????

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 9 Aug 2006 9:59 pm

(I agree about the B-bender. It was undoubtedly conceived in an effort to replicate PSG-type voicings, but it became a style all its own as it developed. I, too, have played one for thirty-odd years and it's integral to my guitar-playing. It's not remotely 'pedal steel-like', though.)

Back to the topic....

All this labeling is pretty pointless but, whatever you want to call their music, Parsons, the Byrds, Poco, and (eventually) Emmylou and her Hot Band gave country music a huge shot in the arm. That recent You-Tube posting of Poco's 'You'd Better Think Twice' is ample proof of how rich a musical seam it all was.

And... if it hadn't been for Gram Parsons inspiration, we'd have never had Emmylou Harris' excellent 'Elite Hotel' album. That's as good a country record as I know!

RR

Ron Whitfield · Post by **Ron Whitfield** » 9 Aug 2006 10:43 pm

Chris, you can hear Clarence do his thing on a great live cut of 'This Wheel's On Fire' w/The Byrds '69/Fillmore at my 2nd favorite site www.wolfgangsvault.com
You'll have to wait til it comes up on rotation, but with all the killer toons this site offers I doubt you'll be too bummed, and 'Wheel's' is certainly worth the wait.
[This message was edited by Ron Whitfield on 10 August 2006 at 01:56 AM.]

Klaus Caprani · Post by **Klaus Caprani** » 10 Aug 2006 1:43 am

I have such a hard time seeing people fighting to get into the small boxes that the business apparantly finds nessesary to market our product.
Driven to the extreme this would cause genres never to mix and music to coagulate in rigid forms.

Personally I couldn't care less if it's country or rock'n'roll. I intend to play music at all times.

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Klaus Caprani

MCI RangeXpander S-10 3x4
www.klauscaprani.com

Petr Vitous · Post by **Petr Vitous** » 10 Aug 2006 1:53 am

Must mention of Billy Crash Craddock called Mr Country Rock in early '70s. His recordings are full of great work of Lloyd.

Petr http://www.luma-electronic.cz/lp/elpe.htm

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 10 Aug 2006 2:37 am

I started playing in the 70's.
Our country sounded like rock, and our rock sounded like country.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 10 Aug 2006 2:44 am

that the Beatles chose one of the few Buck Owens hits without pedal steel! Just think what it would have done for the instrument if the Beatles had hired a nashville steel player for that record!

Imagine what it would have done for the instrument if they hired a steel player instead of a string quartet for "Yesterday."

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Warning: I have a telecaster and I'm not afraid to use it.
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Klaus Caprani · Post by **Klaus Caprani** » 10 Aug 2006 2:50 am

Imagine what it would have done for the instrument if they hired a steel player instead of a string quartet for "Yesterday."

AMEN to that

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Klaus Caprani

MCI RangeXpander S-10 3x4
www.klauscaprani.com

Chip Fossa · Post by **Chip Fossa** » 10 Aug 2006 2:52 am

Thanks Brint for the REAL dating of those albums.

I stand corrected.

Well, it was the '60s. And you know what they said about the '60s - "If you remember anything about it, you weren't really there."

I think that's what they said.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 10 Aug 2006 3:34 am

Imagine what it would have done for the instrument if they hired a steel player instead of a string quartet for "Yesterday."

Hard to say, but IMHO, I don't think the long-term effects would have been very significant. For one thing, a steel backing would have turned a lot of fans off (remember, not everyone was crazy back then about groups like Poco and the FBB). For another, it would have probably just been considered a "gimmick" that would have qucikly faded.

Remember the sitar in Beatles tunes? How many of those do you see in groups these days?

Nope, you guys can sit back and think "If only they'd 'a had a steel in ________" all you want, but the simple truth is, to a lot of young people...the pedal steel ain't cool. I give Pete, Rusty, and J.D. a lot of credit for their efforts (they did some great stuff), but that doesn't change the fact that pedal steel fizzled in rock music, country-rock music, and even almost fizzled in country music.

Or maybe I'm the only one who noticed?

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 10 Aug 2006 3:59 am

If "Yee Haw" is country, then so is "Takin' care of Business" by BTO in 1973.
They show a brief glimpse of a steel fretboard, but that's hardly a cue.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 10 Aug 2006 4:57 am

"but that doesn't change the fact that pedal steel fizzled in rock music, country-rock music, and even almost fizzled in country music."

Man, I love Donny. He's always got major points just nailed (even when I disagree with him he's rarely "wrong" - just has strong opinions, which is wonderful).

But that observation is really on the dime. In the 80's I almost never heard a PSG in rock, or "country-rock", except for the older groups still touring. Newer bands were staying as far away from steel as possible to avoid pigeonholing, I think.

As much as some folks here probably HATE the idea, "alt country", "country punk", and the mystique of Gram Parsons (and the various"Gramfest" music festivals around the country) have re-exposed steel to a ot of people who had wanted to forget it - and they've found that it's pretty cool.

Look at the folks on the forum - some of the most actuve members....both posting and as actual "live" musicians...come from a country rock or pure rock background. I'll bet if a forum like this existed 15 years ago (f the 'net did as well in its current form) you would not find steel guys also talking about Yes, the Firesign Theater, Gentle Giant or Frank Zappa.....

And us "new" influences my, in the opinon of some, dirty the "purity" of the steel - but we get a lot of instruments sold and the interest has gone up exponentially. Is that bad?

So I would think that any thoughtful player, country or not, would recognize the good "country rock" has done for the instrument and steel community.

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 10 Aug 2006 5:22 am

*[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 11 August 2006 at 09:41 AM.]

Fred Shannon · Post by **Fred Shannon** » 10 Aug 2006 5:37 am

Phred[This message was edited by Fred Shannon on 12 August 2006 at 04:25 AM.]

Bob Hickish · Post by **Bob Hickish** » 10 Aug 2006 6:11 am

I think the term Smiley used !
"Country + Rock = a "Crock"!!
is were we differ in our varied
opinions .
If the Rolling stones put on western
hats and played "Rid'n down the canyon "
would that be Country Rock ? or would
it be a Rock group doing country ?

We have a forum member that does Classical music
on a pedal steel ! does that make it country Classical ?

I agree with Smiley ! Its the use of words
that don't mix ! Rock is Rock country is
Country .
Just my opinion guys ! it has nothing to
do with what we like to play or listen to .

Hick

Russ Tkac · Post by **Russ Tkac** » 10 Aug 2006 6:35 am

I've been listening to The Dead String Brothers latest CD lately and it has some nice steel played by Dale Dorsey. There was no attempt to sound country on this Cd but the steel fits perfectly.

When I saw the band play last month they had a young guy playing steel with them. He only played steel and played it on all the songs. He too did a great job.

Over the years Country has changed and Rock has changed. Call it what you will. Back in the late 60s it meant more than it does now.

Richie Furay in his book "Picken' up the Pieces" says George Strait told him that he learned "Honky Tonk Downstairs" from the second POCO album.

Go figure...

Ariel Lobos · Post by **Ariel Lobos** » 10 Aug 2006 6:58 am

I guess it's hardly difficult to determine the frontline between any kind of pure styles,I believe the rhytmn paterns an melodic articulation defines the styles in a moment ...more than harmony,tipical scales or stylistic sounds in instruments or voices. what do you think defines country?...I guess the two step...but what more you think? then obviusly the singers styles,the scottish/irish/inglish heritage in tunes ,the steel,the teles ,fiddles etc...what about blues influence? rock cames from blues,but it's really hard to me to defines what rock is...and maybe are all crossover in this days..bluegrass is part of country too? haha I'M REALLY CONFUSED...BUT IS ONLY MUSIC,YOU LIKE IT OR NOT DON'T YOU THINK?

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 10 Aug 2006 7:20 am

Chris said "I cant' imagine 'The Christian Life' without Lloyd kicking it off, I can. The original record by Ira & Charlie (the Louvin Bros) had electric guitar and mandolin and IMHO was a much better recording of the song.....JH in Va.

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Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!!

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 10 Aug 2006 7:20 am

By the way, just a little sidelight...

I started playing music in a Ventures "copycat" instrumental group back in the early '60s, and the first pedal steel I remember hearing in any rock group's song was Sneaky Pete's playing on the Ventures cut "Blue Star". That was in late '64 or early '65 as I recall.

Maybe that's what helped to start the "pedal steel in a rock-group" thing?

James Cann · Post by **James Cann** » 10 Aug 2006 7:25 am

Example - I don't particularly like "country". But I love Emmylou Harris.

I agree, Jim. It always seems to come down to the artist, the instrumentation, and the song.

PS: Emmylou Harris could make a monkey out of me, too.[This message was edited by James Cann on 10 August 2006 at 08:25 AM.]

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 10 Aug 2006 7:56 am

Hey Jerry, it was Jay Dee who kicked it off, and I was referring to the Byrds version as the one which I could not imagine without that steel intro. It's the only version I've ever heard. I will, however, check out the original Louvin Brothers recording.

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 10 Aug 2006 8:31 am

Chip,
I deduce that I must have been there; I've got the LPs!

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 10 Aug 2006 8:49 am

I think the difference between the country rock artists of the past, and todays rock influenced nashville product is just that.

Those guys back then were artists, who created a new genre of music because that's what was in their souls.

Today, the music business is about business, not music. The record companies don't care about quality or musical integrety. They only care about unit sales, and the content of the recordings is all too often dictated not by the artist, but by somebody from the accounting department.

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Warning: I have a telecaster and I'm not afraid to use it.
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My web site

Chris House · Post by **Chris House** » 10 Aug 2006 8:55 am

And Mike - don't forget that they need to have "The Look". Or at least be able to be made up and packaged with it.

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 10 Aug 2006 9:27 am

are you sayin achey breaky heart wasnt "art"? hehe......

Tim Bridges · Post by **Tim Bridges** » 10 Aug 2006 12:15 pm

I haven't narrowed my taste for music to any particular artist, instrument(s), style, or genre. The one thing I can guarantee you, Nashville, Motown, LA, Inde labels, they're all about making money. Some of us may have grown up during a very rich period of musical history. Some aren't as fortunate. I would be willing to bet that alot of todays stars and back up bands would prefer to play something else, but that's not what the knuckleheads want to hear. They record and sell what the public wants, not what the musicians want. Time's will change again when retro-country comes to style.

As for what somethings called, who really cares. In the south we "carry" things to someones house, in the north they "bring" things over. It's the same thing.