Country/Rock?????????

Chip Fossa · Post by **Chip Fossa** » 9 Aug 2006 12:18 pm

I think "Dr Byrds & Mr Hyde" came out before "Sweetheart" and "The Notorious Byrd Brothers"
and had one of Roger's classic, and very country, songs - "Drugstore Truck Drivin' Man" - a sort of 'thank you' song to Ralph Emory and the manner in which he welcomed The Byrds,
when they made their 1st GOO appearence.
Excellent steel in DTDM, BTW.

Chris House · Post by **Chris House** » 9 Aug 2006 12:22 pm

Or check out Ian Matthews album "Valley Hi". In particular, the track "Seven Bridges Road" produced by Mike Nesmith (yes, The Monkey)who also did a lot of the harmonies and vocal arrangements. Then check out The Eagles version and the date it was released. Who influenced who? There are some...not particuarly me, who consider Nesmith the father of country rock. I like all kinds of music, learn from all kinds, but, I don't know, it just seems that Gram Parsons, Burrito Bros., Birds, etc...much better than the stale, rehashed, overproduced rock with a twang that Nashvegas is spewing today. For a good inside view the book - "Three Chords and the Truth: Hope, Heartbreak and Changing Fortunes in Nashville" is a pretty enlighting read on how marketing overtook Nashville (and pushed out what I consider real country). Just my penny and humble opinion, both of which ain't worth much to anyone else but me....[This message was edited by Chris House on 09 August 2006 at 01:52 PM.]

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 9 Aug 2006 1:07 pm

Indeed, but it makes me sad that the Beatles chose one of the few Buck Owens hits without pedal steel!

Though I'm sure we'll probably never know who made that call, I feel sure it was an intentional decision.

I like country rock, and played a lot of it in my day, but for all the rantings about the significance of the steel guitar in country rock, it's strange that only about a half-dozen groups regularly carried a pedal steel. For the rest, pedal steel was only a transitory experiment, and it was never fully integrated into their sound.

The raw, simplistic country-rock thing (that used steel) kinda fell by the wayside in the '70s, much like folk music did in the '60s. Aside from the older, outspoken devotees of the genre, it seems unlikely that we'll see a resurrection any time soon. But if we had about 10 more Jerry Garcias, and about 20 more Robert Randolphs, that situation might change!

To far too many young people, though, the pedal steel is still just an "un-cool" instrument (like the accordion). Maybe we should sorta let them know that it's harder to play than any video game? That might change things.[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 09 August 2006 at 02:09 PM.]

Chris House · Post by **Chris House** » 9 Aug 2006 1:24 pm

"Maybe we should sorta let them know that it's harder to play than any video game"

Yeah, but how do you divert their attention long enough to tell 'em?

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 9 Aug 2006 1:30 pm

I read somewhere that The Beatles would get board mixes of Buck Owens recordings sent to them before the songs were even released. Apparently, they were big fans and watched his career very closely during the 60's.

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 9 Aug 2006 1:30 pm

Poco was one of the quintessential country rock bands.. at least thats what they tell me.. I have my doubts however..[can you see my tongue poking my cheek??]

MANY of their tunes were straight up country by todays standards..Same can be said for NRPS, but they did not have the vocals and songriting ability Poco had.
Still more country than a LOT of
"""TODAYS COUNTRY"""..

Lets see, POCO was a bunch of drugged out long hairs correct???
Bunch of ne'er do wells... I guess Jim Messina got lucky hooking up with Kenny Loggins, but nothing much happened there..

Hmm.. Randy Meisner was Poco's original bassist... hooked up with the Eagles.. bunch of losers there too...

George Grantham went on to play drums for Ricky Scaggs during Rickys glory years... boring...

Tim Schmidt also went to the Eagles... snore

Richie Furay went on to become idolized for his formidable talent... big deal..Even made records with losers like Chris Hillman and JD Souther...

Rusty Young??? whos that??? did he ever do ANYTHING or influence ANYONE??? not from where I sit brother.. talentless hack I'll bet,,,

Yep.. Those POCO guys went nowhere... bunch of hippies.. how DARE they try to pawn themselves off as REAL country. bob

Chris House · Post by **Chris House** » 9 Aug 2006 1:49 pm

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 9 Aug 2006 2:43 pm

"cosmic american music".

[This message was edited by Ben Jones on 09 August 2006 at 03:50 PM.]

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 9 Aug 2006 3:01 pm

Actually, Chip, Notorious Byrd Brothers was released January 3, 1968, Sweetheart of the Rodeo August 30, 1968, and Dr. Byrds and Mr. Hyde February 3, 1969. I believe Dr. Byrds was the first album on which Clarence White was a full member of the band, and his contributions are outstanding, to put it mildly. The CD notes say the steel on DTDM was overdubbed by Lloyd Green.[This message was edited by Brint Hannay on 09 August 2006 at 04:04 PM.]

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 9 Aug 2006 3:14 pm

I always thought that Notorious Byrd Brothers, with its druggy "Space Odyssey" and "Artificial Energy", was what made Sweetheart Of The Rodeo so shocking in its musical shift. I think Crosby leaving and Parsons arriving had something to do with it, maybe?

Imagine if they had to try recording "Draft Morning" in Nashville during 1968........

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 9 Aug 2006 3:17 pm

On the question of the early "pioneering" of "country rock", I think it deserves notice that the Byrds recorded Younger Than Yesterday in late 1966, including two songs, "Time Between" and "The Girl With No Name", written in a decidedly country vein by Chris Hillman, and featuring Clarence White's (as a sideman) unbelievably tasty clean Telecaster playing!

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 9 Aug 2006 3:20 pm

Brint - correct on the dating.

Many fine posts. Thanks.

And many based on "my mind's made up - don't confuse me with the facts". Oh, well.

I tried to give the historical perspective (in a nutshell) and a solid print reference. You do have to read the book to have a solid opinion for or against it, though.

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 9 Aug 2006 3:29 pm

This is slightly off topic, but what DO they call that stuff i occassionally see on CMT for half a second when i am channel surfing?
They cant call it country can they? and it sure aint rock. Like someone said its more like 70's pop music...I am really confused by stuff like that honky Tonk Bedonk song or Billy Ray Cirus or whoever ...I am supoosed to call THAT country?

oh well i guess they can call it whatever they want it dont mattter.

Jim i will check out that book , thanks for the recommendation.[This message was edited by Ben Jones on 09 August 2006 at 04:31 PM.]

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 9 Aug 2006 3:38 pm

"if there is a humbucker on stage and no PSG then it aint country."

Randy - if you have a humbucker in your steel, THEN what happens??

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 9 Aug 2006 3:48 pm

I agree there were lots of country-ish tunes popping up on albums by pop and folk artists, dating back to the mid-60's and before. But I do think that, with Sweetheart, the Byrds were the first rock band to make a full-on, unabashed commitment to country music in the studio. Gram's International Submarine Band were producing some country flavorings before he joined the Byrds, but they were virtually unknown and thankfully featured on the Sweetheart Extended Edition (with Jay Dee Maness on steel for a few numbers).

Jim Peters · Post by **Jim Peters** » 9 Aug 2006 3:54 pm

I believe that the loss in popularity of pedal steel can be attributed to the fact that country rock was in vogue for just a short while. With only a couple of exeptions, it petered(no pun intended) out quickly. There wasn't much steel because steel is difficult to play, and a lot of rock bands just weren;t that great of musicians(not yet anyway). Anybody could pick up a guitar and sing along wih a couple chords, maybe get lucky. You don't get lucky on steel. But I love 'em all,especially NRPS and Poco. JP

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 9 Aug 2006 4:04 pm

Good point, Jim. Without the pedal steel of Lloyd Green and Jay Dee Maness, Sweetheart would not have been an all-out country album.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 9 Aug 2006 4:33 pm

Chris, the steel added a lot - but it STILL would have been a pure country album with no steel.

Bill Monroe was "country" before steel. Now it's called bluegrass, but it wasn't then. There were MANY other "country" artists in the pre-steel days.

Steel is not essential in defining "country", nor does its absence define "non-country".

Just as humbuckers are irrelevant. There were great country leads played in the 60's - on big Gibson jazz guitars with humbuckers...not Teles.

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 9 Aug 2006 6:16 pm

Jim, I understand what you're saying, but a song such as "100 Years From Now" is country because of the steel. That song would be rock otherwise. Yes, many of the songs are shuffles or 3/4, but the boys hired Lloyd and Jay Dee to make the album unmistakably country. I can't imagine "The Christian Life" without JayDee's intro, or "You Ain't Goin' Nowhere" without Lloyd kicking it off. Without their contribution, IMHO Sweetheart would not have had the impact it had and continues to have today. They gave them free reign to soak the album with steel. I do think that Gram, Roger and Chris considered the steel primarily a country instrument, and purposely had it in the mix because it defines the kind of country they were anxious to produce. Most of their influences, such as the Louvin Brothers and Merle Haggard, were using steel on their recordings.

It may not be fair or accurate to judge country on how much or little steel is in it, but those guys sure knew the value of a pedal steel in the country sound of that era.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 9 Aug 2006 7:00 pm

Chris, I think you are basically coming from a different place.

"100 Years" to me sounds country as heck with no steel - just listen to Clarence white's guitar fills and tell me it it's a rock song - and I say this from having played it that way, without steel, about 1,000 times. Same with You Ain't Goin' Nowhere - a Bob Dylan song that does have tasty steel work, but if you listen to other recordings of it it's very country with NO steel - nd take the steel OUT - it's still a country song.

I think it's a perception - if it has steel you WANT it to be the steel that makes it a country song. But the steel is an ornament. The song is the song, steel or no steel. Even acapella.[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 09 August 2006 at 08:04 PM.]

Mike Winter · Post by **Mike Winter** » 9 Aug 2006 7:21 pm

Jim Sliff -- you're a brother in arms.

------------------
Mike
------------------
Blue Moon Highway
(Country Music...and then some.)
www.bluemoonhighway.com

ZB Custom S-10 (#0509)

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 9 Aug 2006 7:24 pm

I guess it's useless to mention that the telecaster was originally designed to recreate sounds similar to a steel guitar.....

Clarence's style, especially with his B bender, was obviously very pedal steel. Having the bender on a tele is all about recreating the steel sound with a 6-string. In a few spots, it's initially hard for the uneducated ear to decipher the two intruments on Sweetheart.

I'm basically a rock and roll fan that took up the pedal steel after years of playing rock. I listen to more country these days, but mostly for the steel. I'm still primarily a fan of older rock and roll. I have to admit that I used to define country (at least Merle/Waylon/Hank/Pride-type country) by the whining steel guitar. And I still do, to a certain extent. Maybe it's because I find the country-pedal steel connection very noble in its sound and general character.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 9 Aug 2006 7:35 pm

Chris, I really hate to disagree (especially because we really are agreeing mostly in principle), but while initially Clarence and Gene Parson's idea was to recreate steel sounds with the bender, the bender became something entirely its own. Some use it as a "steel substitute" - others (me included, for about 30 years) use it as a different musical instrument. Even Gene says it won't sound like a steel.

In Clarence's fist foray's - Playboy After Dark, Live at the Fillmore, etc - he'd only been playing it a few months and certainly WAS playing a lot of "steel" licks.

But that changed....and dramatically. By "Dr. Byrds" release he was mixing much more rock into the bending.

And if you listen to Clarence play in the 70's there are only a few cases (especially fewer when playing live) where the b-bender was used as a "pedal steel" effect. Listen to any of about 15 or so versions of 8 Miles High, and the "blues jam" at the end of it....no "steel playing" there.

I've played Stringbender Tele in blues bands. No one accused me of being an out-of-place country player. It's what you do with the tool....

And yes, Leo was trying to get a "steel tone" on the Tele - but as a GUITAR, not a faux steel.

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 9 Aug 2006 8:06 pm

Jim, I would certainly like to hear more Clarence White guitar work, especially the stuff you're talking about in the early 70's before his tragic death. Going on what I have heard, he emitted a musicality that must have transcended the boundaries of faux-steel licks and such. I absolutely love his tone. He was no doubt a principal character in the country-rock movement of the late-60's. But I look forward to delving deeper into his later work, as you mentioned. Any suggestions where to begin?

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 9 Aug 2006 8:57 pm

Chris - email me...

Also go to www.clarencewhiteforum.com for LOTS of info.