Steel Players and Back Problems

Al Carmichael · Post by **Al Carmichael** » 25 Jun 2006 11:13 am

To begin, I am now afflicted with a herniated disk. Seems like I read all the time about steelers who have back problems. Obviously, the weight of the instrument and amp don't help matters, but what about the posture of sitting at the steel to play it? I know it puts a significant strain on my back to sit and play for a long period.

It could just be aging or might the steel contribute to back problems? And, while I'm asking, has anybody here had a herniated disk/sciatica? If so, how did you treat it? I've been in pain for 4 months. Done therapy. I've seen a DO and had manipulation done, but he said he really couldn't fix me. So now I'm looking at shots or surgery. I'm looking for any good advice based on your experiences.[This message was edited by Al Carmichael on 25 June 2006 at 12:19 PM.]

Alan Rudd · Post by **Alan Rudd** » 25 Jun 2006 11:23 am

I wonder if a back brace or belt would help your posture/pain.

Ron ! · Post by **Ron !** » 25 Jun 2006 11:51 am

Al,I know out of experience that a back rest will not help you much.You will never get used to it.Everybody has his/her own way of sitting down at his/her steel.A back rest will not change that.You will always return sitting the way you always did.
You could try to go to a doctor and ask if nerve blockers might be an outcome.But that is something that I would only do if there are no other options.Maybe a chiropractor can help you out here.And a back brace won't hurt you either.

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Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 25 Jun 2006 12:06 pm

I don't think that playing steel would ever cause a herniated disk, it's no different than many other tasks performed while being seated. Lifting/carrying heavy objects can cause a herniated disk, but I'd imagine the main problems are actually improper lifting, being out of shape, and being overweight, all of these put our backs at risk. Wearing a back brace can sometimes help with the pain.

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 25 Jun 2006 12:39 pm

Al,... join the club.. LOTS of us have miserable backs. I think its unrelated to your steel playing, but the heavy gear does NOT help.. about 18 months ago, my intense back pain made me unbearable to be around, and I even got guys on this forum to hate me as my misery was evident even through typed pages.. I was as negative and unhappy as a human being can get..

NO one can understand really bad back pain unless they have experienced it... I DO know what you are going through,I pray it will heal itself in time.. it often does.

Sometimes they don't heal unfortunately, and surgery or more conservative interventions are required...

Forget chiros right now.. If your discs are herniated, they can't help much... You have a disc impinging on the sciatic nerve most probably.. I have had GREAT success with a Medrol dose pack... these are oral steroids that are very effective...REALLY helped me.. I have been able to avoid surgery for a decade, even though my discs are shot.

They are Cortical steroids, NOT anabolic steroids like sports stars abuse and are quite safe.. You really need to see a Neuro Surgeon or a good Orthopedic Spinal surgeon for advice . I wish you all the best.. I'll say a prayer for you . THAT is what got me through my worst days...... bob[This message was edited by Bob Carlucci on 25 June 2006 at 01:41 PM.]

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 25 Jun 2006 12:51 pm

Bob's advice certainly is from one who has lived it.

I might add.

Beware of Ibuprofen.

It stops liver function, and my dentist told me of a middle age friend/patient that had just checked out after taking too much of it for a year.

2. It is addictive.

During a year fighting excricuating dental pain, I melted away a 750 ct bottle and found the result is that the rest of my body, my joints, my back, my knee and my fingers had come to depend on it. I'm just now getting them worked back into shape after a few months off the stuff.

It "uninflames" things, and then your body becomes used to it.

Especially don't mix pain killers/anti-inflamitories.

As I said, Bob C can probably steer you right. Right to a doctor.

EJL

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 25 Jun 2006 1:07 pm

AMEN Eric!!!,, Ibopropen is poison,,, That crap killed my mother in law. Shut her kidneys down after long time use..Al,you are better of bearing up to the pain than taking a lot of Ibupropen...It may help your back pain a little, but it will cause your kidneys to fail.. NOT a good trade off... Get to a spinal doctor and see if the oral steroids are for you... They gave me my life and sanity back..... bob

Pat Burns · Post by **Pat Burns** » 25 Jun 2006 1:21 pm

Thanks for the advice about Ibuprofen, I've been eating them like candies. Just found out the the pain in my shoulder that's been keeping me awake nights for months is arthritis...no cartilage left in my shoulder. Got a shot of Cortisone in it and now it doesn't hurt nearly as much, short term. But since my shoulder doesn't hurt nearly as much now, it lets me feel how bad my back is. A couple months ago I literally couldn't get out of bed after a day of something no more strenuous than painting a ceiling with a roller, couldn't walk for 2 days. Working over my head, causing me to bend over backwards, seems to be the worst. I suspect I also have arthritis in my back. My mother has it, and her mother had it. [This message was edited by Pat Burns on 25 June 2006 at 02:31 PM.]

Damien Odell · Post by **Damien Odell** » 25 Jun 2006 3:27 pm

After each set at a gig I have to get up and do all sorts of stretches. My back really hurts from sitting at the steel and I'm only 30. The best thing I can do is to try to sit properly, keep a straight back, and keep the stomach muscles tight. Beer can help....but too much of that and you'll fall off your stool and do more damage to your back.....

David Yannuzzi · Post by **David Yannuzzi** » 25 Jun 2006 3:36 pm

I have had lots 'o' back pain .

I think most of it is to do with bad posture . When I am aware of my posture I feel less tension my back .I am trying to work off my gut and it helps. Building up more ab muscles to put less presure on your back also helps. I am trying to work off my gut and it helps
Engaging those muscles will help but years of bad habits are hard to break . I try to be consious of it when I practice so I might do it without thinking but I ussually revert back to slouching on a gig and I only realize when my back starts hurting again. Sit ups or pilates are good to make that gut into muscle. Stretch alot before and after you play also

Make sure your shoulders aren't turned inward too much .
Pulling them back and having your chest out a bit helps also

I go to a chiropracter regularly

I also am seeing ancupuncturist who does some massage theray and acu-pressure also .

If you start taking pills you will just have to keep doubling
Take it from me . I was up to 6 advil and 4 aleive together a day and sometimes other. Now I am not taking any those and feel much better. Do what works for you

Hope that helps -Dave

Ron Randall · Post by **Ron Randall** » 25 Jun 2006 3:41 pm

Back Pain.
Yes, I struggle with sciatica from a bulging disc that is under control for now. My chiro friend takes me as far as he can and then I go to the MD specialist. He has injected the bulging disc with cortisone(?) 2 times now and it is a miracle.
I get to feeling so good I forget, and start hauling my gear plus some of the band's gear. Duhhh. Then I start all over again.
FWIW I wear a back brace like the construction workers and UPS guys whenever lifting and setting up.
I really am working on my playing posture. I am using a drummer's throne that is very comfortable to my behind, and has a backrest that can be adjusted every which-a-way. I have it pushing on my beltline.
Add the stretches...
The drummers throne is made by TAMA "first chair" drum throne. (guitar center). About half the price of a fancy pacseat.

Hope this helps

Ron

James Cann · Post by **James Cann** » 25 Jun 2006 5:30 pm

Make sure your shoulders aren't turned inward too much. Pulling them back and having your chest out a bit helps also . . .

Can you hear your mother . . .?

"Sit up straight!"[This message was edited by James Cann on 25 June 2006 at 06:31 PM.]

Roy Ayres · Post by **Roy Ayres** » 25 Jun 2006 5:48 pm

Al,

I had the exact same problem. Mine was so bad I had to walk with a cane, and I could only shuffle my feet forward inch by inch. I went to a good neurological surgeon and he took off the bulging part of the disc that was pushing on the nerves, and I have not had even one pain since the surgery. I asked about the risk and asked him what happened if the scalpel slipped and cut a nerve. He explained that they do not use a cutting device of any kind; the use a tweezer type instrument and pick the surplus disc away a tiny bit at a time. I have heard many horror stories about back surgery -- but I suspect they apply to surgical techniques other than herniated discs. I would do it again with no hesitation. Email me if you have any questions.

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[This message was edited by Roy Ayres on 25 June 2006 at 06:49 PM.]

Steve Spitz · Post by **Steve Spitz** » 25 Jun 2006 5:55 pm

Before considering surgery, you should exhaust all non-surgical options. The injections most folks call cortisone are usually step one. They are not long term solutions. Results differ from case to case on effectiveness, but it`s a logical first step. Usually its lidocaine (like the novacaine the dentist puts in your mouth) and an anti-inflamitory (depomedrol) to reduce inflamation, which can help reduce pressure, which hopefully reduces pain. Taken with a non-steroidal anti-inflamitory , ( Mobic seems to be quite popular now, with less potential risks,like GI bleeding etc...). Step two often involves an MRI , and maybe an epidural steroid injection. (ESI) This is an injection , often a series of three, into the epidural space, guided by x-ray, usually done by a radiologist. My opinion is you try the least invasive options, then evaluate, before considering surgery. I`m not a doctor, but worked until recently assisting in surgery and in the clinic of a spinal surgeon. I now sell the surgical implants , instrumentation, and assorted snake oil for spinal surgery. Hope that helps. Best of luck.

Al Carmichael · Post by **Al Carmichael** » 25 Jun 2006 6:11 pm

I'd like to thank everyone for the responses. I feel lucky to be associated with such a compassionate group of people. I've even had a couple of personal e-mails from people who don't know me and were sending advice.

I was unaware of the risks of ibuprofen. I've been taking three Motrin a day for a couple of weeks. Looks like thats gonna have to stop. Thanks for the warning Eric.

Bob Carlucci--I'm in total agreement with everything you said. My next step is seeing the neurosurgeon on Tuesday morning. Chiropractic and DO's can't really help because the disk is herniated. That took me three months of effort to learn. I am going to try a round of the steroids and cortisone shot if the steroids don't help. I'm going to exhaust every avenue before I even think of having surgery.

I'd like to add a bit to my story. To begin, my injury became apparent one day when I was simply bending down to pick up my keys. I was sitting at the time. I thought I pulled a muscle, but a couple weeks went by and I was no better. Tip #1: I reached with my right arm across to the left side of my body. My DO said that is the worst thing you can do, as the human body is not designed to do that move. A lot of people hurt themselves trying.

My second piece of advice is that if you have gone a couple weeks and your back doesn't recover from something, the first thing you should do is get an X-ray and an MRI--especially the MRI. You need to find out exactly what is happening before you embark on therapy, chiropractic or other treatment. I spent a month in physical therapy without doing the X-ray or MRI. It was a waste of time. My DO told me he couldn't help me, but he tried. Only then did he order MRI and X-rays. Should have done it to start. Now, its off to the neurosurgeon. Wish me luck...

Last, here's something else I learned the hard way. Prevention is the best medicine. If any of you have back trouble from time to time, get a good set of simple exercises designed to strengthen the back muscles. I suspect my disk problems began before the incident where I started having the pain. Had I kept my back in shape, I might not be writing any of this. Time will always be our enemy, but we can choose to fight back.

And, please, get a hand truck or cart to carry your gear. As we get older, what was once easy really starts to take its toll. A lifetime of lifting amps and PA certainly didn't help me.

OK, to make a long story even longer, I am a full time musician. I have had to sit on a stool for almost four months to play at all, and even the stool is pretty uncomfortable after a half hour. Now I'm wondering how much longer I can keep this up if I don't find a fix pretty soon. Like Bob C, I'm really struggling to not be a total crank.

Anyway, I thank each and every one of you for your help and I wish you all the best.

Al Carmichael · Post by **Al Carmichael** » 25 Jun 2006 6:19 pm

Roy and Steve--I just saw your responses, which came in as I was making my reply.

Steve--Thats the route I'm looking at. I don't want surgery if there's any chance that I can get better without it. I'm a strong believer in the power of nature as far as the body healing itself goes. Thanks for your insight. I am more informed and aware now.

Steve--Sounds like you had it really bad. I can walk or stand for about five minutes before all hell breaks loose. How long was the recovery process after you had your surgery? Just in case, I want to know how to plan for this possibility.

Len Amaral · Post by **Len Amaral** » 25 Jun 2006 7:30 pm

I have had the MRI, CAT scan, Bone scan and a biopsy to make sure my back problem wasn't something else. I was considering the shot blocker but I was also looking at acupuncture. I have recently come across a non invasive method that is basically a traction device. Check it out at this link:
http://www.newenglanddecompression.com/

If I go this rout I will lt you know how it turns out.

Bob Knetzger · Post by **Bob Knetzger** » 25 Jun 2006 8:52 pm

Herniated disc and sciatica? Been there, done that..ouch! Chronic pain is very educational, to quote Miles Drintell.

For me, the surgical procedure was a very successful. Instant and total relief once the bulging part of the disc was removed. Yes, it's a leap of faith and there are risks (as with any surgery) but in my case it was worth it.

My surgeon told me EVERYONE has some amount of disc degeneration as they age. Many of us steel players are in the "50+" demographic and prime potential sufferers.

Be careful! Though I didn't injure myself lifting or carrying my D -10 or amp, I think I did hurt myself. All the advice here is good: use a handtruck, make two trips, go slow, do easy!

I was very glad to get off the ibuprofen and the pain killers. The bextra, Celebrex and other cox-2 are also potentially dangerous.

A couple other things have brought me relief in the past. I can recommend them for temporary benefits:

I tired an acupressure message (sort of like acupuncture, but no needles, just hand pressure) and it was fantastic. Totally broke the pain/tension/pain/tension cycle! I left the session completely loose and painfree, for the first time in weeks. The effect slowly wore off after a few days and the massage therapist said in his Japanese fractured-English "something wrong very deep!" I didn't yet know I had a herniated disk but he could tell from my body/muscle tone.

For a different but related upper back/neck pain I tried a sports therapist. This was successful only after getting an upper body xray to show him exactly where I needed just a little more disc distance/clearance. A few simple manipulations and a series of stretches and excersises--- quick and long lasting pain relief.

As part of my post -op physical therapy I went swimmming everyday. This can also be a great way to strengthen back muscles, get horizontal and stretch out, get flexible and exercise all without putting stress on aging knees, backs, and joints.

There's three non-sugical, non-drug approaches! Good luck![This message was edited by Bob Knetzger on 25 June 2006 at 09:54 PM.]

Rick Garrett · Post by **Rick Garrett** » 26 Jun 2006 1:52 am

L4 and L5 herniated in my back. Cotizone injections (3 of those at 1300 bucks each) did no good. Chiropractor did no good. It was a mechanical problem and they had to operate to fix it. Not overweight, not out of shape and not lifting improperly. Just overworked for years is what did mine in. Best thing I've found for pain is to freeze it with an ice pack. Cold then numb and then warm feeling. The cold takes down the inflamation and so the sciatic nerve stops hurting at that point. They took a piece of hip bone off my hip and then used that to fuse my lower spine but these Docs can't put a body together like the Good Lord had you put together. That was about 10 years ago and now I rarely have to take any pain meds but on somedays I do. Good luck to you and I hope you can get back in shape soon. I know it's no fun to hurt every minute and the pain finally MADE me go to the dr.

Rick

Mike Pace · Post by **Mike Pace** » 26 Jun 2006 3:39 am

I'm in the same boat as you Al,

C6-C7 protrusion as a result of being hit head on back in Febuary. At first I was convinced that it was all shoulder & back muscle. Phys Therapy included heat, massage, and plenty of stretches (a big bottle of Ibprofen was prescribed which I threw out after a week).

After 1+ months I was sent for an MRI and thats when they found the pinch. My regiment was changed to heat, traction, and electronic stimulation. The Doc at the clinic turned me over to an Orthopedic specialist who is new to the practice & imo not all "there". He lost my films, failed to renew my PT, and has left me here in limbo until the next appt........ Time for a second opinion!!!!

As far as it relates to my playing, a lot of it comes down to posture. I did pick up a drum throne w/ a backrest, and that merely serves a reminder where I should be sitting. But, every now & then I'll get dull shooting pains down my right arm after a couple of minutes playing steel or piano... it sucks, but c'est la vie.....

-Mike

Hook Moore · Post by **Hook Moore** » 26 Jun 2006 5:38 am

I certainly feel for you Al. I too have 2 herniated discs, L4 and L5. Therapy and ESI were of no help at all. I had 3 surgical procedures just trimming the outside edge of the disc and trimming the center of the discs. My last surgery was to implant a spinal cord stimulator (ANS unit). That has been the biggest help to me. A couple of things I have done since getting the implant about 18 months back that allow me to keep playing are, getting a seat with a back, helps a bunch to be able to lean back once in a while. I also stoped carrying my ole Push Pull and now play a Carter d 10 that is nearly half the weight. Sitting with good posture will not only take some pressure off the back but will also improve your playing.The back seems to be very unique to each individual, what helps me may not help you and vice versa. I wish you much success in getting through your situation.
All my best to you.
Hook

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www.HookMoore.com
[This message was edited by Hook Moore on 26 June 2006 at 06:39 AM.]

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 26 Jun 2006 6:03 am

I herniated a disc at age 33. Was in pain for about a year, really wanted to end it all, didnt see a liveable future for myself, living in a six floor walkup in manhattan with no medical insurance. The only thing that eventually helped me was excercise, daily, and beleive me I tried everything (short of surgery). so theres my 2 cents, excercise, IM 39 now, lookin forward to another twenty or so years of increasing back pain and decreasing hairline.

steve takacs · Post by **steve takacs** » 26 Jun 2006 6:20 am

Lots of good infomaion here. I'd also suggest looking at a book called "Pain Free" bu Peter Egoscue with Roger Gittines. I've found the exercises very helpful WHEN I TAKE THE 15 TO20 MINUTES A DAY TO DO THEM. Some of them are purely to relieve the pain and others to build up the muscles that help support the back.

The other thing if found out had to do with poorposture and walking. My physcial therapist showed me how I tend to walk with the right shoulder slightly ahead of the left which twists the spine a bit. Check yourself out in front of a mirror full lenth mirror from about 10'. Does one shoulder look closer? than the other? Keep that information coming, guys. steve t

Al Carmichael · Post by **Al Carmichael** » 26 Jun 2006 7:00 am

I see I am not alone and I have great empathy for all of you who are dealing with back troubles. I felt ten feet tall and bulletproof until I herniated that disk. Now, I'm feeling pretty humbled.

Steve--I have the Pain Free book. I'm waiting to do the exercises until I confer with my next doctor. The wrong exercise is worse than none at all sometimes. The book does look very good though.

Ibuprofen--The info I got here yesterday startled me. I had been taking 3 Motrin (2400 mg) a day. Last night I stopped. Whoa! My body didn't like that--lots of aches and pains I haven't had for a long time. Anyway, I am breaking my addiction to the Motrin. I kind of expected my body to react, and it is very sore today. At least I won't be an ibuprofen casualty.

Hook--Maybe its time to find a lightweight steel. Are those Carters pretty light?

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 26 Jun 2006 8:33 am

Isn't this Forum great.? My wife takes quite a few Ibrufofen a day. I didn't know it affected the Kidneys until I read it from all the experiences right here on the Forum.
It looks like all of us steelers have our back problems of one kind or another. So be careful lifting those heavy guitars.

I can still pick up the lightweights With no problem.
Carter.Williams,GFI,Excel, and the fine MSA Millenium........al

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