tablature

Perry Keeter · Post by **Perry Keeter** » 7 May 2006 9:59 pm

Tony, I like the road map analogy. I have been "playing by ear" for years. Yet sometimes I need a "map" to find a more effecient route or a difficult location...

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 7 May 2006 10:54 pm

What Rick A. said.

Many of the older players were self taught,
but also listened to others around them.
As far as on the PSG, the older players grew-up with
the gradual addition of pedals, levers and strings.

The newer player has MUCH to catch up on.
So to speed that huge learning curve,
TAB serves a useful function.

It is not per se a disfunctional element
to be scrupulously avoided

TAB is MOST useful if you have the same copedent,
but often the older TAB is not the same as current practice.
Yet you can find many useful things in the parts that work.
It is like the historical record of the development of a style.
Sometimes we need a bit of archological training to understand,
or reference it to modern experience.

Ancient music is writen with a notation readable by moderrn musicians,
and yet the sound is all wrong because the INSTRUMENTS have changed.
Hence chamber groups like St Martin Of The Fields,
that play on ancient period instruments.

The same can be said for aging TAB,
you will sound more like the original player on record,
with the original equipment set up the same,
but that doesn't mean you can't learn something on a new instrument from that TAB.

At the same time the differences will force you to
create your own work-arounds.

TAB still has much value,
if it isn't the ONLY way you try to learn.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 08 May 2006 at 02:55 AM.]

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 8 May 2006 2:10 am

no words of wisdom. Even some great Musicians sight read to play a piece...or they can't play it...

How many musicians have we run across who can sight read beyond the moon but without the music cannot even play Middle C...

Of course the objective should always be to train your ear but I think we may have overlooked a huge obstacle for some. Many will never be able to train there ear..

Some can to a huge degree, some can a little bit and some will never be able to.

Just use the I,IV,V analogy..

many here can "HEAR" the intervals and just go with it..others must ask what the chords are...

Tab and sheet music allow everyone to particiapate in this little adventure of playing an Instrument.....

If you're playing phrases directly from the record, but not with the tab or music, you are still playing what someone else has done...

When I was taking Orchestral Chords for guitar, ( took it to early as a player ) my teacher, Frank Falcone Norwalk Ct. , used to yell at me every 10 minutes or so...I was playing everything from memory..even with the charts in front of me...

Actually, looking back, that was a detriment....it prevented me from paying attention "TO THE" charts...especially if he made a change....

Even sight reading became a problem, I would READ and practice the "Standards" in between lessons, and memorize them...Using the Ears was easier than the EYES....

I think there is a middle road here, I like what Ken states above...I'm adding a few cents to his 2 cents...

I wonder what happend to Frank Falcone ? He was a great chord man, played a DeAngelico...[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 08 May 2006 at 03:22 AM.]

Post by **Joey Ace** » 8 May 2006 8:03 am

Roger,
I stand by my statement that all are important, and all can be overdone too.

I do see your point about Ear Training.
It is the one item that is absolutly necessary.
The others are useful tools.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 8 May 2006 9:20 am

I too agree that being able to learn something directly from something we hear is a skill to strive for.

BUT . . .

Once you have that skill, it allows you to listen carefully and learn a piece of music. That music is often very long and complex. Memory is only so good for long term retention. If I spend an hour or half a day transcribing a solo or learning a really complex jazz head, I'd prefer not to have to go through that exercise again. That's how I use tab: to supplement my memory in the face of many lost brain cells. I have much more tab that I've written than stuff I've bought.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 9 May 2006 1:04 am

I think Marvin is saying that the 'paint by the numbers" approach of learning rom tab doesn't really teach anything, and I think he's right.

Tab is useful for a rank beginner, but I believe that once one knows the chord and pedal positions, one should stop using it.

In 2002, I was at the TSGA show in Dallas, and I went to one of the booths where some guy was playing "A Wat To Survive" and then he got down, and another guy got up and played the same some, the exact same way. I realized both these guys had learned the song from tab and were playing it exzactly as written, with no variation, no creativity, no originality, and no ideas of thier own added to the arrangement.

To me, that's not really playing.

Terry Bethel · Post by **Terry Bethel** » 9 May 2006 3:01 pm

I think Tab is useful for any player, regardless of his ability. After all, if you look and look and try to get a lick, and it just doesn't happen for you, well see if anyone has it on the tab system.
As an example, I looked for a Buddy Emmon's lick for a number of years and couldn't figure out how he did it. I went to his site one night and lo and behold there was the lick on his site. It is a pretty little thing that I am now playing correctly and I have also found about 30 different ways to play things from that lick. The same pedals and strings, but picking them differently.
Just thought I would add my two cents worth.
Terry Bethel
Ozark SGA
Mel Tillis Show(again) They say the third time is a charm!!!!!Right?????

Edited for (I wish I could just one time post something without having to edit it)!!!!!!!!!
[This message was edited by Terry Bethel on 09 May 2006 at 04:03 PM.][This message was edited by Terry Bethel on 09 May 2006 at 04:04 PM.]

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 9 May 2006 6:40 pm

I agree with Terry on this.
There are little things in TAB,
that can cause someone elses epiphany
to then be yours. At any level of expirience.

Couple that with looking at the new TAB info with the number system,
AND your ears, and you have new points of reference to your own creative path.

"A Wat To Survive"

A "Wat" is a Thai budhist temple...
So I guess I must write a tune with Thai elements
to go with this tile.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 09 May 2006 at 07:42 PM.]

Jesse Pearson · Post by **Jesse Pearson** » 9 May 2006 8:25 pm

I love tab and can read it pretty fast on steel, guitar, uke and bass. I also read standard music o.k. I always listen to the actual recording that the tab is based on if I can to "get the phrasing right", thats the secret. I'm thankful to have tab available to remind me quickly how a piece of music goes that I haven't played for awhile, that is, where on the neck to grab the notes. I remember when there was no tab out there and how frustrating it was reading regular notation and wondering if I had the positions right. Tab is a big industry now-a-days and pretty right on, saves a lot of time not having to record copy so much. There's a ton of stuff I learned right because of tab and had originally record copied it in positions on the neck that the artist didn't use. I'm all for it! I've been doing what Rick A' been doing by taking steel tab and putting the theory of intervals etc. under the tab numbers to understand how the notes relate to the primary chords and melody of the song, big help in the improv dept.[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 09 May 2006 at 09:26 PM.]

Rick Garrett · Post by **Rick Garrett** » 10 May 2006 6:10 am

Maybe I'm doing this all wrong BUT, I used tab a little back when I first started maybe a year and a half ago. I was working on E9th pedals for 6 months and then moved over to Reece's 12 string tuning and started all over again. Anyhow, I'd get tab and use it and though it was kind of alright to know where the song lay, it didn't take me but a few times running through the song to deviate from the tabbed positions and start using fills and melody lines of my own design. Now I don't use it BUT there are times when I'm having trouble finding a particular lick that it would be helpful on. So in my opinion (Meager and green as a gord) tab can be useful but for me it's not something I need to lean on.

Rick

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 10 May 2006 8:19 am

Okay - it's only proper that I should modify that somewhat Draconian view that I expressed earlier...

My main concern is for the players whose FIRST resort is 'tab'. Let's face it, we're not in the musical 'mainstream' here. Much as we might like it to be, the steel guitar is not considered an Instrument of the Orchestra, and 'ear' playing is the norm for the majority - even the accepted 'greats'.

Have I used tab? Yes - when, after 25 years of E9, I wanted to get a jump-start on my first C6th neck, I used Herby's 'Dear Heart' and Buddy's 'Right Or Wrong'. That pretty much taught me the basics of what lay where, and I was off and.... well, maybe not running, but I had a clue.

I do get impatient when I see posts asking for tab to the most basic moves and fundamental chord changes - while I may be wrong, and the person may have burnt the midnight oil searching for the answers, it seems as though they want everything laid out for them; I stand by my contention that this dependance will slow the learning process considerably.

I apologize for the somewhat pedantic tone of my first posts on this thread.

As for Larry Bell's comments - well, it hardly counts if you're using tab that you actually wrote out for yourself - that's just musical shorthand, and I do that too.

I just wanted to say that if some people would make a little more effort to get to the bottom of a problem without the help of tab, they'd make faster progess in learning their necks and pedals.

RR

John Cox · Post by **John Cox** » 10 May 2006 8:20 am

Marv dude, its like this. You'd be better off trying to expand beyond what the tab says. Other words try to learn things in different keys and different intervals man.

later dude J.C.

Jack Dougherty · Post by **Jack Dougherty** » 10 May 2006 9:27 am

We learn by seeing..listening...doing..asking...
Tab is nothing more then "music" for the steel..
A method of expressing the contents of a very complex instrument. A musician should use every resource available to him or her to improve upon their skills. Get it any way you can and then make it better. Yes I like tab!

Marlin Gengenbach · Post by **Marlin Gengenbach** » 10 May 2006 3:08 pm

I sure do endorse John's comment...if it were not for tab, not sure I would still be playing this complex instrument. The good Lord did't seem to find it appropriate to give me a "good ear", but I have eyes to interpret "tab" and with perseverence I continue to enjoy this beautiful instrument.

Marlin Gengenbach · Post by **Marlin Gengenbach** » 10 May 2006 3:11 pm

Correction to above statement...should have been Jack and not John...apologize.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 10 May 2006 4:01 pm

Marlin,
I don't think the good Lord gave many of us a 'good ear', just like He didn't endow us with a knowledge of which strings to play to get a major chord. He did, however, give us the ability to develop our 'musical hearing'. A good ear, similar to good hands, is the result of many years of hard work. Training the ear requires us to analyze what makes music sound like it does. Eventually, after working to understand HUNDREDS of songs, it just all fits together and your brain translates what you hear into something you can understand and play.

It's easy to paddle around in the shallow end and never learn to swim because we don't have the ability. Everyone has certain aptitudes -- some are naturally mechanical, some are naturally logical, some are naturally musical -- but everyone has the ability to develop those gifts. IMHO.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Perry Keeter · Post by **Perry Keeter** » 10 May 2006 5:52 pm

Jack, Excellent points. As a newbie, I will take all of the help I can get.

Darryl Hattenhauer · Post by **Darryl Hattenhauer** » 10 May 2006 7:58 pm

Rick,

That's more than your opinion. I just saved that. I hope to get there someday.

And now, the question you're sick of: Any relation to....?

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"Drinking up the future, and living down the past"--unknown singer in Phoenix

Marvin Stegall · Post by **Marvin Stegall** » 16 May 2006 7:34 am

fellow steelers> i think all of you were right. i was just brought up from the old school> i remember when tuning a guitar was a problem. i would wait for the train to come by>since it's whistle was a perfect A 440 note. did not know it then. but when i would play , some would ask ?how do you tune with out a pitch pipe. thanks for your input on tab, i have never used it. I am not raining on those who do. i was just saying know your guitar neck a little better. the note you might be looking for will always be two below or two above. and think about stuff like an c scale >is the same as an A Minor scale, look at your knees what they do. like if you push pedal a down an raise the e's to f> and start on the first fret> you will >have a D Chord on strings >8-5-6>>then if you start counting up 2nd fret would be d#>then when you get to the third fret >you will have an E chord. while holding these pedals down. You can come off your a pedal very slowly >while the knee which raise's the e's to f> keep that in,and you have a nice E7TH there. I have never seen any tab that has had that in it. i try to make everthing simple as i can. you have all sorts of chords right under the bar . And no i aint the guy at wood stock ,and got hold of any brown acid. >>MS

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 16 May 2006 8:41 am

What tab or instuctional material have you been working with?
FWIW, The A+F combo and 7th chords are covered and used in most beginner level (and beyond) Instructional materials I've seen.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 16 May 2006 9:45 am

Mr. Emmons TAB for C6 goes WAY beyond
just having a Dom7 chord sometimes.

As someone above noted, it is just music for steel.
I still read classical,
and still read jazz.
So why not read for steel too.

We learn jazz standards from Realbooks,
so that we can learn how the music works.
And then we improvise with that knowlege.

TAB for steel gives you that same repository
of technique and variation to then create your own thing.

Al Vescovo · Post by **Al Vescovo** » 22 May 2006 11:39 am

I've never been on a gig yet, where I had tab to read.

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 22 May 2006 12:49 pm

The horn players hate when you give them tab! (or tabs for that matter!)

When I tuned to the train whistle, I had to redo it when it got further down the track. Now I am at A=376!

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

[This message was edited by John McGann on 22 May 2006 at 01:50 PM.]

Chip Fossa · Post by **Chip Fossa** » 22 May 2006 5:24 pm

I use tab. I use any and all things available to help me improve my playing.

I do think that playing along to a song is the best way to learn; and if you can sit up front and watch that playing, even better.

The trouble with tab is that it does not show you the RHYTHM. Without rhythm, you do not have a song. You have lyrics and chords. Tab fails in one big way because it can't set the tempo or small nuances that make any song what it is.

Unless you already know a song, tab is basically useless; but it does show you some fingerings; I agree.